Treasure Hunter Proc

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Treasure Hunter Proc
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By Jerynh 2020-10-25 06:47:57
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I want to preface by saying I've been searching for a while and can't find any data on the subject... So I thought I'd pose the question here.

I've been gearing up thf for the first time and trying to figure out the treasure hunter cap stuff. It seems like there is a debate between whether or not your base TH caps at +8 or just your first hit caps at 8. After that I've read that the difference in your TH level and the level of the mob affects proc rate, but it's unclear (or maybe just unsolved) as to whether or not being higher than +8 yourself will increase the proc rate.

Has anyone seen any solid testing data on this? It seems like it should be pretty easy to test if you have the parsing/lua skills (Not sure I do or not). It's weird to me that thf weapons and hands from dynamis are on the more expensive side if higher TH doesn't matter, since you can easily cap without them.

I guess the armlets could be a decent TP piece, and with +4 there you only need one Herc piece with TH to have yourself capped TH on a good TP set with any weapons you want... That could make them desirable... I don't know.

Incoming dead horses :(
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By Shichishito 2020-10-25 07:34:27
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Jerynh said: »
It's weird to me that thf weapons and hands from dynamis are on the more expensive side if higher TH doesn't matter, since you can easily cap without them.
if you refer to the SU5 weapon the high price is due to the costs to make them (outside of exploits and stuff), pretty much all SU5 weapons are pricy, it also offers utility that you can't get otherwise so it doesn#t just bring TH to the table.

the hands are probably overpriced, thought process might be if you can cap TH with less slots then you can equip DPS or defense focused equipment in those opened slots.

regarding TH proc rate after initial tagging.
Quote:
To shed some light of the background before I drop some knowledge bombs, there was a test performed by your fellow adventurers in Japan, and they noticed that after initially hitting the monster with maximum TH+ gear equipped and then switching to non-TH gear, the rate in which the TH value increased was reduced.

Now that you have the background…

Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate. However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of the Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause the growth rate to vary. With that said, if you want to increase the Treasure Hunter value, it is best to utilize equipment that has the Treasure Hunter+ effect. By unequipping Treasure Hunter+ gear, you are essentially creating a gap between the value placed on the monster and your character, which results in an inefficient means for increasing the TH value.
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 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2020-10-25 08:24:09
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Think it's still unconfirmed whether TH past the initial +5 increases growth rate or not. The dev post doesn't clarify that particular issue. It seems odd that so much TH is available to us, when it has no value past 5, but it's not the only stat that's easy to cap so that doesn't mean much on it's own.
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By Shichishito 2020-10-25 09:01:23
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the community rep states that TH proc rate depends on TH equiped and the current lvl of TH on the mob.
since he also mentions a cap of TH proc rate the way i read it you need have at least as much +TH equiped as the lvl of TH currently on the mob.

you can go super OCD about it and make a function that counts TH lvl and alters TH set based on it or you simply equip as much TH as possible without compromising ACC cap in order to always reach TH proc cap.

if you want to trust their official statement is up to you but i didn't find any indepth testing by the community about it.
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By Mrxi 2020-10-25 11:11:16
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Shichishito said: »
the community rep states that TH proc rate depends on TH equiped and the current lvl of TH on the mob.
since he also mentions a cap of TH proc rate the way i read it you need have at least as much +TH equiped as the lvl of TH currently on the mob.

you can go super OCD about it and make a function that counts TH lvl and alters TH set based on it or you simply equip as much TH as possible without compromising ACC cap in order to always reach TH proc cap.

if you want to trust their official statement is up to you but i didn't find any indepth testing by the community about it.
That's not what it says, it says taking gear off lowers the rate after the initial th and stacking more has no effect. I don't have any data but i have tried to attack mobs with all the th gear and its same as +5.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-10-25 12:05:57
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Jerynh said: »
It's weird to me that thf weapons and hands from dynamis are on the more expensive side if higher TH doesn't matter, since you can easily cap without them.

I guess the armlets could be a decent TP piece, and with +4

The prices on dynamis items/weapons don't make any logical sense. Do not try to make sense of why THF relic shard hands cost close to 40M in dynamis mats alone to +3, and another piece costs 500k. It does not have any correlation to how valuable TH stacked is vs unstacked, that will drive you crazy reasoning that way. You would think having access to MORE TH gear could mean you should use MORE of it while upgrading TH, but nothing indicates that to be true or not. Unless they come out and tell us, I don't see any "Easy" way to test that.

edit: I simply use all of the TH gear I possibly have (+2 herc head, relic hands, belt, volte legs) and just swing away. Doesn't really matter, does jack ***for Volte drops anyways.
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-10-25 12:24:29
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Melphina conducted some tests. Sample wasn't large enough to be conclusive, but not even small enough to be ignored.

It seems that the TH level up proc rate is 6% if your currently equipped TH level is at least the same level as that of the TH currently applied on the target.

So if you apply TH8 and have at least TH8 between gear/traits, then your level up proc rate is ~6% per swing.
Speaking of which, someone was saying that appearently only the first hit of main hand swings have this chance. No OH hits, no multiattack procs (unconfirmed, but likely).

If you level up to TH9 on the target and keep equipping TH8 in gear/traits, your level up chance would go below 6% and so on the further this gap increases.

From Melphina's Test it seems keeping your TH in line with the TH on the target gave a slight boost to this level up rate, but conclusion was that this boost wasn't large enough to bother.



This pretty much is the sum of what has been discussed in the last ~1 year of TH discussions here on FFXIAH.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-10-25 12:32:39
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I believe the "first swing only" part was disproven, but I'm not in the mood to go look it up.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-10-25 12:46:37
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One proc per attack round and first hit of an attack round really mean the same thing, makes no difference in the details.

And now that I bothered to post, the abundance of TH items just leaves choice. Same reason you can get well over cap haste on gear, or subtle blow, or dual wield etc.

"Pieces be expensive" - Some variation of; dumb + imbalanced = profit
(admit it, how many of you have THF relic+3 but don't even bother going to dyna on THF to get "proper" use of it. They're literally useless, except in the argument that you want to fulltime cap TH while still maintaining some amount of survivability with "optimized" dps aka .00003% of the population)
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By Jerynh 2020-10-25 13:15:45
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Asura.Sechs said: »
From Melphina's Test it seems keeping your TH in line with the TH on the target gave a slight boost to this level up rate, but conclusion was that this boost wasn't large enough to bother.

This is what I was looking for. If you wear TH14 full time, will you prevent any proc rate decrease. If it's been determined that the decrease isn't large enough to bother, than that answers my question.
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By Asura.Geriond 2020-10-25 15:46:52
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First hit only and one proc per round are significantly different because OAT and MA will greatly increase TH proc rate on the second scenario, but will have no effect on the first.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-10-25 15:51:33
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It's an immeasurable difference

You're bumping average attacks per round from 4.15 to 4.2 (random numbers)

No one is going to offhand kc to increase TH even if it 100% worked that way. (*)someone would just to be that guy.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-10-25 15:55:01
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even with just one TA, DW would go from 6% to possibly 21.93% chance at increasing TH. It's pretty apparent it's the first hit of the MH only.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-10-25 16:12:14
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In the thf thread melph used a 1dmg dagger to show the proc came from an offhand hit

(that doesn't verify it, chatlog is far from infallible)

Fenrir.Melphina said: »
So I went and did a thing to test whether or not treasure hunter procs can trigger on the offhand. Turns out they can, just like I've been saying all along. I went to Moriamar equipped with Twashtar/Bronze Knife to make it easy to differentiate between main hand hits and offhand. You can see the TH proc from the offhand bronze knife clear as day in this screenshot. It procced on the first hit of a double attack round.




So yeah, "Treasure hunter cannot proc on offhand hits" myth officially busted.

"first hit of either hand" may be the "official" terminology for proc rate
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-10-25 16:27:15
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h2h double/triple damage does the same sometimes too, chat log doesn't mean anything
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By RadialArcana 2020-10-25 16:42:44
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Thing that bugged me about this was I thought years ago that getting master on thief would give a big boost to upgrades, it's barely any different.

According to gifts it's +20% chance but I guess it's just +20% of the 6% or some nonsense.

Still a big effort to get +12 most of the time let alone 14, not much better as master than with no job points (other than the raised cap ofc).
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-10-25 17:01:16
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Of course it's 23% more and not whole 23% that'd be wildly broken lol. You'd cap in like 20 seconds on everything.

it's the same shitty wording with Feint
Quote:
Increase chance of Treasure Hunter level up by 25 percent.
Would be over 100% proc rate
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-10-25 18:37:32
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One thing I forgot to mention is that the level up check applies only if you deal at least 1 damage. If you do zero damage, no level up proc will ever happen.

Things might be different with feint, trick attack and sneak attack (they all provide an undefined boost to the level up %), but at least on normal attack rounds you need at least 1 damage for the level up proc chance to be calculated
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By RadialArcana 2020-10-25 18:50:42
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Treasure Hunter Proc System:

The Treasure Hunter proc system was introduced in the December 2010 update and applies to players using Thief main job, as well as the Ranger job ability Bounty Shot.
The maximum base Treasure Hunter level that can be applied from the first action against an enemy is 8.
This includes the Treasure Hunter trait.
The Kupower "Treasure Hound" is not subject to this cap. In areas affected by Kupowers, it is possible to apply TH9 on the first action.
Treasure Hunter can be increased up to a maximum value of 12, with 0 Job Points invested into Thief Job Points or via Bounty Shot.
The 100 Job Points Gift on THF increases the maximum possible value of Treasure Hunter to 13.
The 1200 Job Points Gift on THF increases the maximum possible value of Treasure Hunter to 14.
Bounty Shot allows the initial application of TH2 (up to TH4 with Bounty Shot+2) and can also cause upgrades between TH levels with repeated usage.
Upgrading TH levels from normal attack rounds is inversely proportional to the difference between your current TH level in trait/gear and the monster's current TH level[2].
Example 1: If you plant TH6 on the monster by pulling with your TH gear on and then continue to use your TH gear while you kill the monster, there is a 0-level gap between your current TH level and the monster's current TH level. This makes it "easy" to proc (approximately a 6% chance per melee round).
Example 2: If you plant TH6 on the monster by pulling with your TH gear on and then swap to TH3 to kill the monster, there is a 3-level gap between your current TH level and the monster's current TH level. This makes it comparatively more difficult to proc (approximately a 2% chance per melee round).
There is a much greater chance of TH level upgrade from Sneak or Trick Attack (approximately 10x).
This is multiplicative to the TH up bonus from Feint merits.
Treasure Hunter can only proc on the first hit of an attack round.
Attacks must do damage in order to potentially upgrade Treasure Hunter effectiveness. Hits for 0 do not count.
Treasure Hunter can proc on the first hit of weaponskills, but will not display any message when it does.
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 Bahamut.Unagihito
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By Bahamut.Unagihito 2020-10-25 18:58:56
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RadialArcana said: »
Treasure Hunter Proc System

Is that from some official source? I briefly looked but couldn't find it.
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By RadialArcana 2020-10-25 19:07:51
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From BGwiki

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Treasure_Hunter
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 Carbuncle.Arakon
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By Carbuncle.Arakon 2020-10-25 22:37:29
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The TH8 cap seems to have some strange effect on the TH level itself. I farmed a lot of HTMB on THF and can see this behavior:
I enter the BC and see a proc for TH4 (due to forgetting to switch the gear set after merit farming). I immediately switch the gear set to TH14, and the next TH proc shows the TH jumping to 8.

On the proc rate itself, I have tried the same HTMB with TH8 and TH14 gear set and noticed that I usually ends up with higher TH at the end of the fight with TH14 gear.

That being said, my TH14 gear is doing less white damage compare to TH8, so there are more hits landing on the mob compare to TH8.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-10-25 22:42:04
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I mean yeah, it's still a function of time. If it takes 2 minutes longer to kill, you've got 2 entire minutes worth of procs. It doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of 8+ but more time = more procs.

If it takes 5 minutes to solo (mob) w/ "glass cannon set" @ TH 12 and 7 minutes w/ "TH14" set @TH 14, was the mob still at 12 at the 5 minute mark etc.
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By Carbuncle.Arakon 2020-10-27 04:19:48
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
If it takes 5 minutes to solo (mob) w/ "glass cannon set" @ TH 12 and 7 minutes w/ "TH14" set @TH 14, was the mob still at 12 at the 5 minute mark etc.

The time difference is much less than that. This is the TP set, so the main difference between the two is the amount of multi-hit bonus from using less optimized gear for the TH14 set.

For your example, TH12 to TH14 is just 1 piece of dark matter TH2 gear, it will hardly contribute to 20% difference since it only applies to white damage. Relic+3 Hands and Empy boots already put you at TH10.

In my case, I was managing hate by only WS on trust tank when Trick Attack is up, so the extra hits doesn't help that much in terms of WS frequency etc.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-10-27 11:18:43
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"glass cannon set" would have 0/1+TH , the end result would be 12.

You read it wrong, but whatever.
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By Shiva.Thorny 2020-10-29 11:22:44
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To actually test it meaningfully, you'd need to count number of procs vs number of attack rounds and get a relatively large sample.
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