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International Politics, it's not all about the USA
 Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-02 15:13:02
Not sure how the law is around this kinda thing in the US or elsewhere, but in the UK we have law dating back to the mid 1930s that prohibits the wearing of political uniform, or paramilitary style uniform during protest/marches.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Edw8and1Geo6/1/6/contents
Today in Brixton, London, this was going on (Extinction Rebellion showing up too, as if we didn't know they were 2 arms of the same beast). The police were kneeling at the start of the day too lol.
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The night before this there were 5 deaths from shootings, 1 with a sub machine gun. I wouldn't go into London these days if I was payed. We need to detatch that ***like a UK style Gotham City. Send in Magic Grandpa Corbyn and Batty Abbot!
By volkom 2020-08-03 09:14:43
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guess the US isn't the only country with crazy people
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Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-03 09:21:01
Interesting conversation. This isn't exclusive to the UK, you don't need to have legislation in place to take away people's freedom of speech, you just need to make the environment for conflicting views extremely hostile to work in or live in.
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Many use that as a defence too, "I'm educated", read: Indoctrinated.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-08-03 09:27:52
Actually you need strong legislation in place to preserve freedom of speech.
I would remind you that actual freedom of speech is limited to very few countries, none of them being GB or in the EU.
Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-03 09:52:49
The US has strong legislation in place, so why have right leaning intellectuals been prevented from speaking and deplatformed? Legislation doesn't do anything to stop this type of self censorship through fear, balance in academia is paramount. If you were a young scholar working on chicken eggs, and you discover something neat but it went against woke narrative would you rather publish and potentially ruin your career or leave it and work on something else until you find something that can be shared in public? It's a cultural problem, not a legal one.
Would JK Rowling have had the Harry Potter books published if she'd started writing them after offending twitter warriors? The only reason she's still got a voice is because she is too rich to silence.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-08-03 10:19:07
Would JK Rowling have had the Harry Potter books published if she'd started writing them after offending twitter warriors? The only reason she's still got a voice is because she is too rich to silence. No, the reason why she still has a voice is twofold:
1) Her books are done. They can't cancel her anymore.
2) She made statements to appease the SJWs. But, since SJWs have such short memories, they will demean her shortly after she stopped appeasing them. At which she will make empty statements again to try to calm them down until they forget about her, then start the vicious cycle all over again.
There really is no satisfaction for a mob such as SJWs. They are a literal beast, only consuming until there is nothing left, then they consume themselves.
Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-08-03 14:49:58
Thor, our laws on free speech apply to governments.
Private enterprises can censor anyone here like in any other country.
If neo-nazis are bared from monetizing hate on paetron, they can move to hateron (I did not make that up) and their followers can fund them that way. Isn't free enterprise grand?
But you have an "official secrets" law. Your government is allowed to stifle your speech.
TLDR: Here you have a right to speech, but no right to any platform save the traditional soapbox.
Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-03 16:30:15
The official secrets act is for matters relating to national security. As a teenager when we done work experience, one of the choices that was popular was the NATO ICBM early warning radar site in Kinross-shire because you had to sign the official secrets act so, couldn't give a talk on what you done, during English class.
Apart from that, we have Non Disclosure Agreements, but not sure those fall into free speech domain as it's classed as a contract or agreement between 2 consenting parties.
We are limited by what we can say in the UK, Ie, no incitement to crime or violence, but there are no laws saying what we have to say or anything like they do in Canada with compelled speech.
You must have some kind of secrets legislation that prohibits sensitive security information being talked about or shared though don't you?
Private enterprises censoring people because of pressure from overly loud pressure groups is what I'm getting at. Completely outside the legal/legislative world, you have speech censorship that used to be about self censorship through empathy, being taken and twisted into self censorship through fear of being attacked financially and socially for voicing a not uncommon point of view.
That's why almost nobody on the left seen Trump winning vs Killary IMO. All opinions to the contrary were pushed aside, silenced and shunned but nobody changed their mind because nobody on the left took part in the conversations, they just call someone a pejorative to discredit anything they have to say.
You'll never know what the country wants if you silence half the people because they don't share your views. How can you ever expect to know what people think or understand them if you make speaking your mind a minefield.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-08-03 16:51:30
Guys, the US Constitution does not give people what we call "free speech", we have that given to us by nature. All the US Constitution does is specifically tell Governments that they can't impede our natural right to freedom of expression / religious choice and so forth. It's about placing intractable limits on Government to prevent them from abusing the population. In that regards the US is the only country in the world to have that. Everyone else has some sort of Government created "law" that gives it's people the permission to speak, or at best simply doesn't have a law that says they absolutely can't say something. Both of these situations last only until someone in Government decides it's "for the public good" to start legislation to limit freedom of expression.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-08-03 17:06:01
Non Disclosure Agreements are indeed contractual.
People who work with classified information sign agreements here too.
We can incite to crime or violence but it has to be a general statement. "Someone should break that window" is OK. "Joe, go break that window" makes you criminally culpable if Joe breaks the window but you can still say it. If Joe breaks the window after hearing you advocate window breaking the criminality is all on him.
The classic example of disallowed speech here is shouting fire in a crowded theater.
I believe there are forms of speech that are criminalized there. Don't a lot of them involve hate speech? That is what will get one banned on social platforms. But, just like hateron, there are platforms the banned can go and freely spread their hate. Isn't free enterprise grand?!?
Oddly enough we do have compelled speech and people advocating for more. In many anti abortion states there are laws forcing doctors to tell things to women asking about or seeking abortion. Some of those things are lies.
Some people wish to bring forced prayer and pledges back to our schools.
Personally I see nothing wrong with limiting the reach of Nazis online. But they can stand on street corners here, in full uniform, and spew their hate.
Nazi Getting Punched Goes Viral (Video)
Seattle Police say no investigation is under way because no crime has been reported
They are not immune from consequences.
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-08-03 17:54:50
The classic example of disallowed speech here is shouting fire in a crowded theater.
That was amended in Brandenburg v. Ohio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
It's been replaced by "imminent lawless action", meaning you need to directly instruct another person to immediately break the law.
Quote: The Brandenburg test (also known as the Two-pronged Test.)
The three distinct elements of this test (intent to speak, imminence of lawlessness, and likelihood of lawlessness) have distinct precedential lineages.
Judge Learned Hand was possibly the first judge to advocate the intent standard, in Masses Publishing Co. v. Patten,[13] reasoning that "f one stops short of urging upon others that it is their duty or their interest to resist the law, it seems to me one should not be held to have attempted to cause its violation". The Brandenburg intent standard is more speech-protective than Hand's formulation, which contained no temporal element.
The imminence element was a departure from earlier rulings. Brandenburg did not explicitly overrule the bad tendency test, but it appears that after Brandenburg, the test is de facto overruled. The Brandenburg test effectively made the time element of the clear and present danger test more defined and more rigorous.
This is perfectly fine
"Hey Chanti, you should go shoot someone"
This is not
"Hey Chanti, you need to shoot that person there"
Some people wish to bring forced prayer and pledges back to our schools.
That's disingenuous and you know it. Nobody is advocating for forced prayer, merely allowing those who do wish to be allowed to do so. This is normally framed as a short 1-3 min "period of reflection" prior to the start of the first class. As for the Pledge of Allegiance, I get the idea but it absolutely should not be mandated. No speech should be compelled, for either side of the isle.
Interesting note, the whole "Pledge of Allegiance" thing is from back when the Right was the Community Authoritarians and the Left was the Individual Liberals. Nowadays it's the opposite, the Right is Individual Liberals while the left is Community Authoritarians. Mind you this isn't platform or issue specific, just the political philosophy that is used to achieve that platform.
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Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-04 09:29:19
Yeah actually, here are some examples of convictions under UK hate speech law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom#Selected_cases
I would still argue that it's not the legislation that silences people, but the social aspect, people complaining to employers etc.
One is a youtuber who was fined for using "seig heil" instead of "paw" as the command for his pug to raise its paw.
I think the people who made a video of a cardboard reconstruction of grenfell tower fire were charged under the same law but I may be wrong on that.
The one thing that throws a spanner in the works of the current law is proof of intent (like murder vs manslaughter). SNP have gone a step further with their current laws by removing intent. So even inanimate objects can be guilty.
I've always thought it's best to make people comfortable to speak their mind, then pull the chord and let them go, don't be offended, just listen. Everything is out in the open, and they don't feel the need to hide stuff, so you find out what they really think and can make an informed evaluation of their character.
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By volkom 2020-08-07 10:31:55
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/07/china-sentences-canadian-to-death-drug-charges-392549
Quote: BEIJING — China has sentenced a fourth Canadian citizen to death on drug charges in less than two years following a sharp downturn in ties over the arrest of an executive of Chinese tech giant Huawei.
Ye Jianhui was sentenced Friday by the Foshan Municipal Intermediate Court in the southern province of Guangdong. Ye had been found guilty of manufacturing and transporting illegal drugs, the court said in a brief statement.
Another suspect in the case was also given the death penalty and four others sentenced to between seven years and life in prison, it said. Death sentences are automatically referred to China’s highest court for review.
Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-09 04:11:49
More info on SNP hate speech laws. Wee Jimmy Cranky is on a roll. Wonder if English people are listed as a protected group in their laws. The open hatred of the English is a defining feature of Haggisland.
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By volkom 2020-08-10 12:02:06
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/lebanon-government-to-step-down-in-the-wake-of-protests-after-beirut-explosion
Quote: Lebanon’s government will be stepping down on Monday night amid a groundswell of public anger over last week’s devastating port explosion in Beirut.
According to Lebanese law, if more than one-third of the cabinet’s 20 members quit their jobs the government would be automatically dissolved. But Beirut state TV announced that the Hassan Diab government is going to resign in the next few hours, leaving the country to now find its new prime minister. Several ministers along with members of the parliament have already submitted resignations, CNN reported.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-08-10 14:42:57
Thor, neither Scotland in particular, nor the UK in general, has, or ever had, free speech.
Tell me please if this would be legal in any part of the UK.
'Nazi Political Applications' Are Being Handed Out in Indiana
Newsweek
pic.twitter.com/g9N42kqhzi
Quote: ... Cops were called out and determined that since it was public property, that they weren't doing anything wrong."
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-08-10 15:19:21
Thor, neither Scotland in particular, nor the UK in general, has, or ever had, free speech.
Tell me please if this would be legal in any part of the UK.
'Nazi Political Applications' Are Being Handed Out in Indiana
Newsweek
pic.twitter.com/g9N42kqhzi
Quote: ... Cops were called out and determined that since it was public property, that they weren't doing anything wrong." It looked like they were handing out DNC voter registration cards. How is that bad?
Joking aside, I don't think anyone claimed that the UK has free speech.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-08-10 17:05:03
...
Joking aside, I don't think anyone claimed that the UK has free speech. More info on SNP hate speech laws. Wee Jimmy Cranky is on a roll. Wonder if English people are listed as a protected group in their laws. The open hatred of the English is a defining feature of Haggisland.
YouTube Video Placeholder It was a reaction to this pic of Thor's (if it comes through.)
I mean how can you shut down what you never had?
Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-10 19:27:52
We don't have any freedom of speech? How am I here, writing this in that case?
Removal of intent is a start, criminalising comedians being another. Nuance is completely lost on people these days.
As a general question, how does freedom of speech apply with regards to the infamous "N" word? I never quite got how those 2 interacted, both on a philosophical and legal level.
If you want to get technical, freedom of speech has come and gone probably half a dozen times in the long *** history of Britain. When it does go. EG. The Roman invasion, eventually the civilisation consumes itself, and a few hundred years later, a new society sprouts up from trade between land working native communities. Rinse and repeat. History isn't a straight road, we're doomed to repeat it.
We have what polite UK society considers freedom of speech. Ie. Don't be an arsehole, and don't demean someone because of something outside of their control, and to be honest, it worked really well until everything became hyper racial and intersectional. Now its being weaponized by the far left to shut down any view that goes against the prescribed narrative, like Mao/Lennin. Everything needs to be spelled out letter for letter because the current standard of debate is infantile and everything needs hyper defining. We're regressing as a species where everything needs strict boundaries, and nothing is grey.
Nobody starts with no rights, we just have them taken away, gradually 1 at a time, and over time, more and more rights are taken, "for the greater good". The US is a lot younger than the UK, and is at an earlier point in the never ending cycle that is freedom of speech/expression. The US constitution can be, and will be, amended at some point in the future, it's inevitable. Hence the existence of the word, amendment. These things are in constant motion, usually the changes happen gradually. This time it's being pushed fairly fast, hence the greater resistance. Went in dry a bit too hard this time.
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By Prong 2020-08-10 19:44:58
We have what polite UK society considers freedom of speech. Ie. Don't be an arsehole, and don't demean someone because of something outside of their control, and to be honest, it worked really well until everything became hyper racial and intersectional. Now its being weaponized by the far left to shut down any view that goes against the prescribed narrative, like Mao/Lennin. Everything needs to be spelled out letter for letter because the current standard of debate is infantile and everything needs hyper defining. We're regressing as a species where everything needs strict boundaries, and nothing is grey.
Right. If you cannot even criticize one person among millions of a certain "group" without being accused of necessarily having some kind of disproportionate negativity to everyone in that metric, that is a clear sign of a societal erosion of free speech. Whether there is a law specifically stating so or not.
By Rooks 2020-08-10 19:47:07
We have what polite UK society considers freedom of speech. Ie. Don't be an arsehole, and don't demean someone because of something outside of their control, and to be honest, it worked really well until everything became hyper racial and intersectional. Now its being weaponized by the far left to shut down any view that goes against the prescribed narrative, like Mao/Lennin. Everything needs to be spelled out letter for letter because the current standard of debate is infantile and everything needs hyper defining. We're regressing as a species where everything needs strict boundaries, and nothing is grey.
Right. If you cannot even criticize one person among millions of a certain "group" without being accused of necessarily having some kind of disproportionate negativity to everyone in that metric, that is a clear sign of a societal erosion of free speech. Whether there is a law specifically stating so or not.
Don't drag things from other, locked, threads into new ones. You have been topicbanned.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2020-08-10 19:52:12
We have what polite UK society considers freedom of speech. Ie. Don't be an arsehole, and don't demean someone because of something outside of their control, and to be honest, it worked really well until everything became hyper racial and intersectional. Now its being weaponized by the far left to shut down any view that goes against the prescribed narrative, like Mao/Lennin. Everything needs to be spelled out letter for letter because the current standard of debate is infantile and everything needs hyper defining. We're regressing as a species where everything needs strict boundaries, and nothing is grey.
Right. If you cannot even criticize one person among millions of a certain "group" without being accused of necessarily having some kind of disproportionate negativity to everyone in that metric, that is a clear sign of a societal erosion of free speech. Whether there is a law specifically stating so or not.
Don't drag things from other, locked, threads into new ones. You have been topicbanned.
I understand where you're going with this because that does happen a lot in here, but this is one of those cases where the spillover is actually on topic for the current discussion (perhaps a consequence of having so many active threads).
By Rooks 2020-08-10 19:57:26
I understand where you're going with this because that does happen a lot in here, but this is one of those cases where the spillover is actually on topic for the current discussion (perhaps a consequence of having so many active threads).
The context of it being the reason I locked a whole other thread takes it off the table. He got the benefit of the doubt the first time. He does not get it the second time.
Everyone who's ever gotten banned because of this section, it's because they couldn't let some perceived slight go. I highly suggest he takes the slap on the wrist and moves the *** on.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2020-08-10 20:18:20
Meh, I don't have a dog in that fight, but I was just hoping to have a longer discussion on suppressed speech in its many forms because it's a legitimate issue around the world. However, we're now in this grey area where I'm not sure if we can even discuss it because there was a fuss over it in another thread where it didn't need to exist in the first place.
Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-08-10 21:29:23
The proof is in the pudding I guess. I don't like what you say so I'll imply you are deplorable, to have others silence you for me. It couldn't have played out more accurately. It's like DDoS for humans.
Now we're in the other type of suppression, where you don't quite know if you can say something so you just walk away from the discussion and don't hold it in public because dancing around an issue is tedious and a waste of time and energy. The discussions get held elsewhere, so a large section of the population aren't even part of it, essentially self excluding because they can't cope with complex issues without yelling "waysist, waysist".
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-08-13 12:46:23
Trump announces 'Historic Peace Agreement' between Israel, UAE
United Arab Emirates and Israel agree to 'full normalization' of diplomatic relations, Trump announces
Quote: President Trump on Thursday announced what he called a “Historic Peace Agreement” between Israel and the United Arab Emirates, saying they agreed to “full normalization of relations.”
“HUGE breakthrough today! Historic Peace Agreement between our two GREAT friends, Israel and the United Arab Emirates!” Trump tweeted Thursday morning.
The president, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi and Deputy Supreme Commander of the United Arab Emirates Sheikh Mohammed Bin Zayed released a joint statement Thursday, after the three spoke “and agreed to the full normalization of relations between Israel and the United Arab Emirates.” The statement said that the “diplomatic breakthrough” was at “the request of President Trump,” and that Israel will “suspend declaring sovereignty over areas outlined in the President’s Vision for Peace and focus its efforts now on expanding ties with other countries in the Arab and Muslim world.”
Israel and the UAE also said they will continue their efforts to “achieve a just, comprehensive and enduring resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”
“This historic diplomatic breakthrough will advance peace in the Middle East region and is a testament to the bold diplomacy and vision of the three leaders and the courage of the United Arab Emirates and Israel to chart a new path that will unlock the great potential in the region,” the statement read. “All three countries face many common challenges and will mutually benefit from today’s historic achievement.”
Delegations from Israel and the UAE are expected to meet in the coming weeks to “sign bilateral agreements regarding investment, tourism, direct flights, security, telecommunications, technology, energy, healthcare, culture, the environment, the establishment of reciprocal embassies, and other areas of mutual benefit.” “Opening direct ties between two of the Middle East’s most dynamic societies and advanced economies will transform the region by spurring economic growth, enhancing technological innovation, and forging closer people-to-people relations,” the statement also read.
Trump on Thursday said he had a call with Israel and the United Arab Emirates. The president told reporters Israel and the UAE will “begin cooperation across the board,” along with exchanging embassies and ambassadors. The president said he expected other countries to follow the UAE’s lead on this effort to cooperate with Israel going forward.
The president said the action would be known as the “Abraham Accord,” named for the “father of all three great faiths.”
“No person better symbolizes the potential for unity of these three great faiths,” U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman said from the Oval Office Thursday.
The president went on to joke that he “wanted to call it the Donald J. Trump accord,” which received laughs in the room.
“I didn’t do that,” Trump added, again touting the historic importance of the agreement.
“We are already discussing this with other nations,” Trump said. “So, you will probably see others of these.”
The president went on to cheer his senior adviser and son-in-law Jared Kushner for his efforts in securing the agreement.
“The president, like with all things, urged us to take an untraditional approach,” Kushner said Thursday. “You can’t solve problems that have gone unsolved the way people have done before you and failed.”
Kushner said the president “tries to unite people focusing on common interest as opposed to common grievances.”
“We were able to achieve results others could not achieve,” Kushner said. “This will advance the region and advance the world.”
Meanwhile, Israel’s ambassador to the United States Ron Dermer tweeted shortly after the agreement was announced saying: “A great day for peace! Israel commends the courage of MBZ for the historic decision of the UAE to join Egypt (1979) and Jordan (1994) in making peace with Israel. Israel deeply appreciates all. @POTUS Trump has done to make this breakthrough possible. More to come!”
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo touted the “vigorous diplomatic outreach” by the president, Israel and the UAE.
“The United States congratulates Israel and the Emirates for this remarkable achievement, which is a significant step forward for peace in the Middle East. Blessed are the peacemakers. Mabruk and Mazal Tov,” Pompeo tweeted.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-08-13 13:02:38
Smart move starting with the UAE, both honestly and dirty. From the honest standpoint, they're one of the best targets for normalized western relations due to their prominent role in worldwide economics beyond "hey, buy our oil". In a dirty sense...well sorta the same- get the money on your side, and then poor extremist nations will either be lost in the changing world or have to join up.
By Viciouss 2020-08-13 13:14:42
Volk's link does a wayyyy better job than that Fox News puff piece lol.
Quote: Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi Mohamed bin Zayed presented the matter differently than Trump, emphasizing the suspension of sovereignty plans over normalization. He tweeted that “an agreement was reached to stop further Israeli annexation of Palestinian territories. The UAE and Israel also agreed to cooperation and setting a roadmap towards establishing a bilateral relationship.”
Egyptian President Abdel-Fatah a-Sisi similarly called it “the agreement to stop Israel’s annexation of the Palestinian Territories and taking steps to bring Peace to the Middle East.” He said in a tweet that he “values the efforts...in order to achieve prosperity and stability for our region.”
Foreign Minister Gabi Ashkenazi praised the agreement, saying “the good news of normalization with the UAE is important and an opening to more agreements.”
Ashkenazi also praised “avoiding the one-sided annexation plan,” and called for the complete Trump peace plan to be implemented.
Yamina leader Naftali Bennett praised the normalization, saying “relations between the countries are no longer held hostage by Palestinian recalcitrance,” but slammed Netanyahu for suspending sovereignty plans.
“It’s unfortunate that Netanyahu gave up a once-in-a-century chance to apply sovereignty to the Jordan Valley, Maaleh Adumim, Bet El and the rest of Israeli settlements,” he said. “It is tragic that Netanyahu did not seize the moment and didn’t have the courage to apply sovereignty to a centimeter of the Land of Israel, but sovereignty over the parts of our homeland will come from somewhere else.”
The Trump administration’s “Vision for Peace” would allow Israel to apply its law to 30% of the West Bank, including all settlements and the Jordan Valley.
The rest of the West Bank would be designated for an eventual Palestinian state, which would receive recognition and a $50 bn. aid package from the US if it meets a list of pre-conditions, including demilitarization, stopping incitement and salaries for terrorists.
Diplomatic sources in Jerusalem and Washington, however, said that the extension of Israeli law to the settlements had only been temporarily put aside.
“Sovereignty is on the agenda and we are committed to it,” the Israeli source said. “The Trump administration asked to temporarily suspend the announcement in order to first enact the historic peace treaty with the Emirates.”
The American source said: “Israel was presented with two opportunities and chose one. They’re aggressively pursuing [normalization] and not complicating it by doing sovereignty.”
A senior Likud source remarked that “the Israeli and international Left always said we can’t bring peace with Arab states without peace with the Palestinians, that there is no other way than withdrawing to ‘67 lines, evacuating settlements, dividing Jerusalem and establishing a Palestinian state. For the first time in history Prime Minister Netanyahu broke the paradigm of ‘land for peace’ and brought ‘peace for peace.’”
Joint List MK Mtanes Shihadeh accused the UAE of a “betrayal...no less than a knife in the back of the Palestinian people and the Arab nations.”
Shihadeh posited that “Netanyahu and Israel never really meant to annex, but in order for him to abandon the plan, the UAE agreed to make its secret relations open. Nothing will change and anyone who thinks the Palestinians will disappear are mistaken.”
Annexation is the central issue. No one, other than the Trump admin, wants Israel to annex the West Bank. The UAE threw them a carrot to stop it until after yet another Israeli election, and if Bibi wins then annexation will be right back on the table. The two countries were already on good terms, maaaaybe the UAE will allow direct flights...but I doubt it. Other than that nothing will change.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-08-13 15:27:19
Volk's link does a wayyyy better job than that Fox News puff piece lol. Coming from a guy who thinks a bald monkey would do a better job at anything Fox News does, your opinion leaves much to desire.
Annexation is the central issue. No one, other than the Trump admin, wants Israel to annex the West Bank. The UAE threw them a carrot to stop it until after yet another Israeli election, and if Bibi wins then annexation will be right back on the table. The two countries were already on good terms, maaaaybe the UAE will allow direct flights...but I doubt it. Other than that nothing will change. You are right, for once.
Except you missed the most important thing: UAE officially recognizing Israel as a country. Which, frankly, is a huge deal.
It may not be for you, but it is for the rest of the world.
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Here's your international politics thread, although this topic hasn't really breached other threads yet, might as well have one for this:
To start off:
Turkey’s decision to convert Hagia Sophia into mosque strikes fears for other holy sites
Caleb Parke said: Religious and political leaders are decrying Turkey's decision to make Istanbul's Hagia Sophia, known for its Christian origin and as the secular Muslim nation's most popular tourist site, into a mosque.
Built as a Greek Orthodox Church nearly 1,500 years ago and converted into a mosque after the Ottoman conquest of 1453, the Unesco World Heritage Site became a museum in 1934 under Turkish Republic founding father Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Today, it attracts more than 3.7 million visitors a year.
Last week, however, a Turkish court ruled the Hagia Sophia's conversion to a museum was unlawful and Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared the building a mosque once again, the BBC reports.
"Like all our mosques, the doors of Hagia Sophia will be wide open to locals and foreigners, Muslims and non-Muslims," Erdogan said at a press conference noting Muslim prayer will begin on July 24.
On Tuesday, Greece, which is home to a large number of citizens who revere the sixth-century building as a focal point of their Orthodox Christian faith, called it a "petty" move.
“With this backward action, Turkey is opting to sever links with the Western world and its values,” Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said.
The decision also was criticized by the World Council of Churches and the Church in Russia, home to the world's largest Orthodox Christian community, and the leader of the Catholic Church.
"My thoughts go to Istanbul. I think of St. Sophia and I am very pained," the pope said during a service at the Vatican.
Unesco said its World Heritage Committee would review the monument's status.
According to an Arabic Facebook post, Erdogan stated that the “revival of the Hagia Sophia is a sign toward the return of freedom to the al-Aqsa mosque” in Jerusalem, CBN News reports.
The move comes as the United States faces protests calling for the tearing down of monuments and symbols. People across the world worry that Islamists will try to reclaim other sites after Turkey's move.
The Genesis 123 Foundation, based in Israel, called it "a direct attack on Christians and Christian heritage in the Middle East" in a petition to "save the Hagia Sophia from Islamic Extremists."
"We call upon the government of Turkey to reverse its decision and maintain the Hagia Sophia as a world heritage site open to all. We call upon world governments to implore Turkey that they must reverse this action," Jonathan Feldstein, the president of the Genesis 123 Foundation, wrote.
Aykan Erdemir of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies said Erdogan is "once again asserting Islamic supremacism and domination on Turkey's ethnic and religious minorities."
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
I mean, I see why the religious community is pissed off, while at the same time I see one reason why Erdogan did it (to help prevent ISIS and ISIS-lites from destroying it), but really, mobs and radicals are going to radical.
It's more of a powerplay move for the Muslim community than it is to save the monument. But honestly, I have no skin in the game on this (I'm not religious). I do, however, don't want people to destroy anything historic.
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