The Last Dance III: A Dancer's Guide *New*

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2020-03-17
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The Last Dance III: A Dancer's Guide *New*
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By Afania 2020-03-31 11:50:16
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SimonSes said: »
Afania said: »
The idea of pairing up with RDM and /BLU tagging all mob...you can do the same on something like DD/BLU and it would be exactly the same. Its relying on SJ.

For tagging sure, but you are ignoring the fact that you wont be able to hold hate on anything, beside main target. The whole poimt is that dnc can self heal building hate on anything that was tagged in similar way to RUN with foil. Only other dd job who can make it is BLU or DRK with /blu, but it wont be easy for DRK. You would need sird set and probably wont be able to reach 80% fast cast.

You actually dont even need /blu on dnc for initial tag. You can do aeolian edge.

If you are pulling it's faster to tag with a spell than wait for TP for AoE WS.

Also tagging with a WS than generate hate with waltz sounds incredibly slow because of how much TP that you need for both actions. When it can be done with 1 BLU spell cast.

BLU spell generates CE, just casting spells tag all mobs AND get hate, what do you mean by they can't hold hate on anything that's not the main target? Stop bringing up new points just for the sake of arguing. -.-
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By SimonSes 2020-03-31 13:51:18
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Afania said: »
BLU spell generates CE, just casting spells tag all mobs AND get hate, what do you mean by they can't hold hate on anything that's not the main target? Stop bringing up new points just for the sake of arguing. -.-

Who bring new points...

You said most dd can tank aoe with /blu.
I said its not like that, because realistically none beside BLU and DRK/BLU can keep hate on all targets after tagging them. Mnk, War or anyone else without native mp pools and ways to refresh mp fast, wont be able to use /blu spells well and long enough to be able to aoe tank.

I havent said Aeolian is better to use over /blu to aoe tag. I said that DNC dont need /blu for AOE tag because you can use aeolian edge (or simply cure someone who have hate on everything with waltz) and since after initial tagging you will use cheat cure waltzes to keep hate on everything, you dont need /BLU at all.

Generally what I was saying is that only 3 dd jobs can realistically tank more than one target at once. Dnc, blu and DRK/blu. That makes those 3 more versatile at tanking than mnk or war.

Furthermore it wont be an easy task for DRK, because you will need a sird set and without native enmity and without afaik ability to cap fast cast, that aoe casting blu spells from sub to keep hate on everythig will be a pain. You will probably barely make it even spamming one spell after the other. DNC on the other hand just need a slightly modified waltz set with hp+ gear and evev using tp on waltzes you will still probably make more and ws more than DRK who needs to cast /blu spells with 65% fast cast.

So imo that only really leaves BLU as only other DD jobs who can AoE tank.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-31 15:52:48
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Afania said: »
If you are pulling it's faster to tag with a spell than wait for TP for AoE WS.
If we're talking about stuff that aggroes and/or links (because let's face it, anything that matters does it) then it's even faster to just aggropulllink stuff, then walk back to position and by then you'll have all the time to use a /BLU spell or Aeolian Edge and then waltzes to build hate on them.
Really, how can you not see that DNC, despite lacking people who showed dedication to the tank role so far, clearly has a couple more tank-related tools compared to all other DDs?
It's still not in the league of a "proper" tank of course, but I can clearly see the difference comparing it to other DDs, and this goes beyond the fact that, as we mentioned several times already, most DDs all have their own different cool things that can be useful for tanking.


Quote:
because of how much TP that you need for both actions.
Assuming you don't have to mass pulls more often than 30 seconds, TP isn't really that big of an issue when you have Reverse Flourish (30 seconds) and No Foot Rise (3 mins).
You can even go /SAM for Meditate and if you have a Terpsichore mainhand that's even more TP overflow than a regular DD.
When you're idling waiting for your group to be ready for pulls you're also gaining TP thanks to Turms Cap+1 and the Adoulin Ring.
So... really, TP is not infinite to the point you can spam one waltz per second, but not even as much of an issue as you make it sound.



@Simon
Absolutely agree with everything you said.
Also, while DRK is awesome and can keep up Drain3 fulltime theoretically (5+ mins duration, cooldown necessary for full potency is 5 mins recast), practically it's not that easy and needs preparation.
Basically you need to make a SC that won't kill a target, then MB Drain3 on that MB, with the Merit JAs up to power up that Drain3.
It's not hard, but it's something that you need to do every 5 mins and it's not always super viable.

On DNC (and on BLU?) you don't really have to rely on anything of that stuff, so I think it makes things more straightforward and suiting a larger number of different situations.

You could argue DRK doesn't need Drain3... maybe, but then you remove a large part of what makes DRK nice as a tank if you exclude full potency Drain3, so I think we need to take what I said into consideration.
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By SimonSes 2020-03-31 16:13:46
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Absolutely agree with everything you said.
Also, while DRK is awesome and can keep up Drain3 fulltime theoretically (5+ mins duration, cooldown necessary for full potency is 5 mins recast), practically it's not that easy and needs preparation.
Basically you need to make a SC that won't kill a target, then MB Drain3 on that MB, with the Merit JAs up to power up that Drain3.
It's not hard, but it's something that you need to do every 5 mins and it's not always super viable.

This is only needed if you want 9999 HP tho. I can Drain III for ~4000HP (it varies from like 3700 to 4500) without magic burst in non dark day/weather. That puts me easily around 6000-7000HP.
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By Afania 2020-03-31 16:27:09
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Asura.Sechs said: »

Really, how can you not see that DNC, despite lacking people who showed dedication to the tank role so far, clearly has a couple more tank-related tools compared to all other DDs?

Huh? I never said DNC has zero defensive tools. But if we are mentioning it then we should be fair and mention tank builds for every DD job, then it goes down from there.

DRK is more than just HP pool. Native MP pool, versatility to use a tanking SJ and still cap JA haste with apoc, several SJ all generates VE and stuns are great for hate reset. A normal drain 3 without burst brings its HP higher than other jobs.

Why does everyone emphasis on ONE tool like fan dance, that isn't enough to make it stand above other DD as a tank IMO.
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By SimonSes 2020-03-31 16:58:00
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Afania said: »
Huh? I never said DNC has zero defensive tools. But if we are mentioning it then we should be fair and mention tank builds for every DD job, then it goes down from there.

DRK is more than just HP pool. Native MP pool, versatility to use a tanking SJ and still cap JA haste with apoc, several SJ all generates VE and stuns are great for hate reset. A normal drain 3 without burst brings its HP higher than other jobs.

None is (or at least I am not) saying DRK, MNK etc. dont have good defensive tools too. What I wrote on very start is this:

Quote:
if you use waltzes for enmity gain, you lose time and tp, which means you dont dps, which means you lose enmity from dps, so waltzes makes you more versatile (you can generate enmity on many tagged targets) but wont give you edge when you tank single target. Unless its some specific fight when you need to stop/limit dps anyway.

and this is the only point im trying to make. Versatility to tank not only single target like WAR, MNK etc. but also many targets, because you are able to build hate on many enemies with cheat curing with waltz.

Only RUN, PLD and BLU can really do it effectively too. RUN with JA and Foil, PLD with JAs, cheat cure and /blu spells and BLU with spells. DRK can also in theory with /blu spells, but for DRK it will be a pain, because spamming spells would seriously cripple your DPS (way more than waltzes would affect DNC's dps) and it would still be less enmity than from cheat waltzes. Saving grace for DRK is that (assuming you wont get dispelled) you are very safe still even in SIRD set and you can throw in some enmity in it, instead of focusing on capping DT. You lose much less enmity too, because you have much higher max HP.
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By gargurty 2020-04-18 06:25:34
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Anyone have a good ws for asuran fists for those time we have to use karambi h2h?
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By SimonSes 2020-04-18 12:42:27
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gargurty said: »
Anyone have a good ws for asuran fists for those time we have to use karambi h2h?

Just use high acc/att pieces. If you have 2 similar pieces go for one with higher STR. Fotia neck and belt (unless you are 100% sure you are overcapping attack then +2 neck).
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By Hector 2020-04-25 14:50:13
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Good afternoon, everyone! Hopefully I don't necro bump this, but I'm curious to your perspective and if there is something I'm missing here. I'm a Terp user, with Su5 offhand.

For Pyrric Kleos, I'm seeing different information on both XIAH and BG. BG says that BiS for Pyrric Kleos is Horos Casaque +3, and ffxiah says that Adhemar body +1 is BiS. To me they don't look very different. Maybe adhemar wins out SLIGHTLY because of the augments.. Is there something else I'm missing?
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By SimonSes 2020-04-25 15:07:51
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Hector said: »
Good afternoon, everyone! Hopefully I don't necro bump this, but I'm curious to your perspective and if there is something I'm missing here. I'm a Terp user, with Su5 offhand.

For Pyrric Kleos, I'm seeing different information on both XIAH and BG. BG says that BiS for Pyrric Kleos is Horos Casaque +3, and ffxiah says that Adhemar body +1 is BiS. To me they don't look very different. Maybe adhemar wins out SLIGHTLY because of the augments.. Is there something else I'm missing?

Adhemar has slightly better str/dex (10 more total at 40%WSC is probably like 1% more damage) and Relic has higher acc/att. Relic is also much better defensively (6%PDT, higher meva, higher eva, higher def, higher vit, higher mdb, resist amnesia +35). Worth to note Adhemar also has -8 enmity, which is quite nice if you plan to avoid getting hate.
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By Hector 2020-04-25 16:24:58
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Thanks for getting back to me Simon! That's what I seemed to be seeing as well. Probably will keep body at +3 rather than spend the 20+ million gil on Adhemar even though I have the abjuration. The -8 enmity is good since I seem to be taking hate on things like omen mid bosses, but thinking of just leveling DRG sub for the enmity shed now.
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2020-05-19 15:40:51
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Hey all, I've been away from this game for about a year now and am trying to get back into DNC. From May 2019 I have R15 Terpsichore and R1 Twashtar, Aeneas. Former BiS TP sets (including +2 neck) and almost BiS Rudra/Evis/Pyrrhic sets. My default playstyle was DNC/SAM with Terp/Twash. Wondering what has changed the most in terms of gear, playstyle, and spreadsheet results.

I see from the OP that the new Malignance gear uniformly beats the previous BiS options for Terp because of STP and PDL (holy ***). Is this still true in solo play or situations where you might be ATT starved? Great Accuracy with Malignance but what happens if you aren't reaching enough pDIF to take advantage of all the PDL? Would the non-Terp set be better?

And about Building Flourish. Is it worth shifting merits there instead of Reverse Flourish for Terpsichore? I remember sometimes seeing a bit of TP overflow in the past but not enough to make Rudra spam worth it vs. Pyrrhic spam. To be honest I've almost never used Building Flourish before, but for Terpsichore+Pyrrhic spam it looks like a clear winner.

EDIT: For solo play I'd be using skillchains and not Building, but for party play/Dynamis-3 I'd be mixing Reverse and Building depending on situation.

Also, since I've missed a lot of version updates and dev letters--- are there any plans to increase augments higher than R15?
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By Shiva.Flowen 2020-05-19 16:26:01
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Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Hey all, I've been away from this game for about a year now and am trying to get back into DNC. From May 2019 I have R15 Terpsichore and R1 Twashtar, Aeneas. Former BiS TP sets (including +2 neck) and almost BiS Rudra/Evis/Pyrrhic sets. My default playstyle was DNC/SAM with Terp/Twash. Wondering what has changed the most in terms of gear, playstyle, and spreadsheet results.

I see from the OP that the new Malignance gear uniformly beats the previous BiS options for Terp because of STP and PDL (holy ***). Is this still true in solo play or situations where you might be ATT starved? Great Accuracy with Malignance but what happens if you aren't reaching enough pDIF to take advantage of all the PDL? Would the non-Terp set be better?

And about Building Flourish. Is it worth shifting merits there instead of Reverse Flourish for Terpsichore? I remember sometimes seeing a bit of TP overflow in the past but not enough to make Rudra spam worth it vs. Pyrrhic spam. To be honest I've almost never used Building Flourish before, but for Terpsichore+Pyrrhic spam it looks like a clear winner.

EDIT: For solo play I'd be using skillchains and not Building, but for party play/Dynamis-3 I'd be mixing Reverse and Building depending on situation.

Also, since I've missed a lot of version updates and dev letters--- are there any plans to increase augments higher than R15?

Welcome back!

The OP "swaps for terpsichore" is either wrong or the poster just intended to demonstrate those pieces as swap options which are favourable for a terps user. For example, relic feet +3 are far better than malignance boots when the aug is active. Pumping TA still increase MS rate regardless of devaluation due to AM3 aswell, so swaps like sam tights, adhemar wrists +1 which offer strong store tp and MS are still better for DD.

Full malignance is still such a nice set for hybrid with all the -dt and meva along with the stp, especially for a terps user. I would prioritise getting this set - spamming E on thf is fairly easy but the drop rate can be pretty lame.

I would say if you were Bis a year ago you're still in a strong position. After Malignance set, consider an aurgelmir orb +1, Gere ring from Odin BC. Dont bother with balder earring +1, pretty sure it's not bis despite making it to OP sets. I personally rate R15 Terps as number 1 for DNC, but some other baffoons might think otherwise.

RE merits - I do reverse flourish still - I tend to low man alot so its nice for sc closing with a high tp rudras. Building with pyrrhic is nice but the real boost is from job points, not sure on merits tbh.

Nothing on beyond R15.. they did say new "story content" in the works though!
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2020-05-19 16:45:41
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Thanks Flowen! I really appreciate it. I'll play around with PDL and find a happy medium once I get the Malignance set. PDL seems really powerful-- maybe body/legs swap? I think I might have been using Herc. hands with QA+3 ACC+10 or something, I'll workshop this a bit :)
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By Cerberus.Hideka 2020-05-21 12:25:38
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Whats the over/under on Sailfi Belt +1 VS Windbuffet and Grunfeld for their respective uses(TP/WS)? i feel like the 5 DA/STR/ATTK is going to push it over the windbuffet for TP, and maybe even a contender for the grunfeld for a ws belt?
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By Afania 2020-05-21 12:30:45
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Cerberus.Hideka said: »
i feel like the 5 DA/STR/ATTK is going to push it over the windbuffet for TP,

Windbuffet HQ should be a little bit ahead.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-05-23 00:57:41
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but does the Su5 Path C step duration +60 exceed the 2minute cap listed on BG wiki page?
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By Bahamut.Minimuse 2020-05-23 06:43:53
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Cerberus.Hideka said: »
Whats the over/under on Sailfi Belt +1 VS Windbuffet and Grunfeld for their respective uses(TP/WS)? i feel like the 5 DA/STR/ATTK is going to push it over the windbuffet for TP, and maybe even a contender for the grunfeld for a ws belt?

Which belt for DPS depends on your support.

If you are using a Centovente offhand, a Dual/Tri build will likely have more acc than a Quad build since Quad build is reliant on lucky Herc DM Quad augs, maxed Dampening Tam, Windbuffet+1 pieces. Lucky DM augs likely will not have as much accuracy to support Centovente.

If you are soloing or in lowman situations, you might not have optimized support to make a Centovente Quad build more effective than a higher acc Dual/Tri build. This means you need to balance if you indeed have enough haste, DW and other stats to make Windbuffet+1 superior to Salifi+1 Aug. I have both belts and swap out Tri & Quad sets among DNC, THF, COR for DPS dependent on the strength of support I currently have.

There's no reason why you can't have a set that favors a Dual/Tri build AND another set that favors a Quad build AND in-between sets if you are gearing for pure DPS. I have multiple gear sets based on the strength and skill of my support team and the difficulty of the mob. If I'm playing solo or duo with trusts, the gear set is a mixed balance to compensate for less haste or less acc.

Salifi+1 Aug vs. Grunfield will depend on which weaponskill you use and a balance of other stats to support that weapon skill. Salifi+1 Aug has no DEX to support Rudra.
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By Taint 2020-05-23 07:56:38
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Bahamut.Minimuse said: »
Cerberus.Hideka said: »
Whats the over/under on Sailfi Belt +1 VS Windbuffet and Grunfeld for their respective uses(TP/WS)? i feel like the 5 DA/STR/ATTK is going to push it over the windbuffet for TP, and maybe even a contender for the grunfeld for a ws belt?

Which belt for DPS depends on your support.

If you are using a Centovente offhand, a Dual/Tri build will likely have more acc than a Quad build since Quad build is reliant on lucky Herc DM Quad augs, maxed Dampening Tam, Windbuffet+1 pieces. Lucky DM augs likely will not have as much accuracy to support Centovente.

If you are soloing or in lowman situations, you might not have optimized support to make a Centovente Quad build more effective than a higher acc Dual/Tri build. This means you need to balance if you indeed have enough haste, DW and other stats to make Windbuffet+1 superior to Salifi+1 Aug. I have both belts and swap out Tri & Quad sets among DNC, THF, COR for DPS dependent on the strength of support I currently have.

There's no reason why you can't have a set that favors a Dual/Tri build AND another set that favors a Quad build AND in-between sets if you are gearing for pure DPS. I have multiple gear sets based on the strength and skill of my support team and the difficulty of the mob. If I'm playing solo or duo with trusts, the gear set is a mixed balance to compensate for less haste or less acc.

Salifi+1 Aug vs. Grunfield will depend on which weaponskill you use and a balance of other stats to support that weapon skill. Salifi+1 Aug has no DEX to support Rudra.


Windbuffet has more ACC than Sailfi. Its 5DA/20att vs 2QA/2acc.

The 2QA is slightly better.

Having lots of sets is a good thing to optimize but I don't see any reason to use Sailfi over Windbuffet during TP.
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By Afania 2020-05-23 09:35:14
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Taint said: »
Bahamut.Minimuse said: »
Cerberus.Hideka said: »
Whats the over/under on Sailfi Belt +1 VS Windbuffet and Grunfeld for their respective uses(TP/WS)? i feel like the 5 DA/STR/ATTK is going to push it over the windbuffet for TP, and maybe even a contender for the grunfeld for a ws belt?

Which belt for DPS depends on your support.

If you are using a Centovente offhand, a Dual/Tri build will likely have more acc than a Quad build since Quad build is reliant on lucky Herc DM Quad augs, maxed Dampening Tam, Windbuffet+1 pieces. Lucky DM augs likely will not have as much accuracy to support Centovente.

If you are soloing or in lowman situations, you might not have optimized support to make a Centovente Quad build more effective than a higher acc Dual/Tri build. This means you need to balance if you indeed have enough haste, DW and other stats to make Windbuffet+1 superior to Salifi+1 Aug. I have both belts and swap out Tri & Quad sets among DNC, THF, COR for DPS dependent on the strength of support I currently have.

There's no reason why you can't have a set that favors a Dual/Tri build AND another set that favors a Quad build AND in-between sets if you are gearing for pure DPS. I have multiple gear sets based on the strength and skill of my support team and the difficulty of the mob. If I'm playing solo or duo with trusts, the gear set is a mixed balance to compensate for less haste or less acc.

Salifi+1 Aug vs. Grunfield will depend on which weaponskill you use and a balance of other stats to support that weapon skill. Salifi+1 Aug has no DEX to support Rudra.


Windbuffet has more ACC than Sailfi. Its 5DA/20att vs 2QA/2acc.

The 2QA is slightly better.

Having lots of sets is a good thing to optimize but I don't see any reason to use Sailfi over Windbuffet during TP.

I'm not getting Salifi+1 winning even at capped accuracy. However if you are missing malig pieces and using ambu gears for DT set in missing slots, Salifi+1 is useful to cap haste.
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 Bahamut.Yiazmat
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By Bahamut.Yiazmat 2020-05-26 17:54:21
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This might not be the right spot to ask, but i was wondering if someone is using an haste detection for Selindrile gearswap without the need of Gearinfo addon, i know it exist for cor but i cant find anything for dnc or thf.
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