Ambuscade Volume 1 Jan. 2019

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Ambuscade Volume 1 Jan. 2019
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-29 14:17:12
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I typed something long but being mean isn't a good thing and I promised to improve (and it's better to go at it calmly in the end).

So, to "sum up" (I'm ***at being concise) in a polite and nice way:

- Believe it or not but DD gear isn't irrelevant (it really isn't, I wish I was wrong, believe me)
- Yes this month is easy as *** (I'm the first surprised) but believe it or not, a lot of people can't step up to it (even slow method)
- Having COR every run isn't realistic in my situation (even if I was the COR, and I'm nice I only mention COR here)
- When it came to tank, I meant that if I have to tank as SAM then it'd be better to use that tank as another job, which isn't possible most of the time
- The Asura comment was about a mentality, not the place. You have that mentality (assumptions, talking about subscription etc.)
- I didn't ask ANY advice, I asked whether or not Yoichi would be viable which was asking for factual answers and/or experience
- I am not looking for an excuse to AG Yoichi though I would if I found a practical use for it because I max SAM no matter what if practical (it's 119 already, if I found a situation where Yoichi would help me I would have AG'd it already, but this Ambuscade could be such thing)
- You share your opinion and your likes/dislikes as if I was saying you're wrong to like this or that (you aren't, obviously) which is still irrelevant to my question (I'm not gonna say I don't care as I will remember your experience you shared and it might come in handy in the future for me, but you get the idea)

That's not me arguing, that's me explaining what you misunderstood. The main problem we have in this discussion is that you, for whatever reason (didn't experience this first hand, maybe?), don't understand the situation I'm in. All I can tell you is that we agree on everything when it comes to doing that Ambuscade and everything we agree on was irrelevant in regards to my question. And the part we disagree on is mostly because you seem to dismiss the existence of what I speak of, average players to name it.

Yes I have tried the fast method several times (it was actually brought to me by someone who heard about it and who was 100% unable to WHM it), yes I understand how it works and I could pull it off on several jobs. Yes I could play WHM, COR (would take time to build I guess though) and whatever you want. No, this wouldn't suddenly turn the 5 people I may find into players that can clear D/VD. It may be hard to believe, it may seem far-fetched or crazy but believe me, as easy as this month is, this isn't how things work.

This is why I go the slow method, because I want to get ***done. Slow method gets me points within the specific context I have to deal with, and that's all I ask for.
Now, for the purpose of improving myself, I wanted to know if this was a good idea to get Yoichi and some updated Namas stuff or not worth it at all. That's literally it.

As I've said many times, slow method is fine for me for the time being. Thank you for sharing experience about fast method, who knows, if I get the opportunity I may come back to read about it and apply it myself, maybe even on WHM (I'm joking here), but for now I don't need advices (though if I ever do fast method I will most likely need some to do better), people have posted a lot of information on here and I think that I've done this Ambuscade enough to understand where limitations are and why they actually exist.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-01-29 14:25:18
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Senk I've not read back over this entire conversation, but I can tell you that doing this months Ambu the slow, safe method was the only way my group did it. Our Paladin insisted this, because killing the black mage early was something they didn't feel like doing. I wanted to do it the fast method, but the tank was adamant.

I really think we could've done it the fast way with who we had, but I wasn't about to force the random PLD we brought in to do it that way. You have to take your party members wants in to account.

And we never lost! It was slow as hell like, but when you're beating VD and popping seals you soon get enough hallmarks/gallantry to get what you want for the month anyways. You only need one decent run, beating it 4-5 times with a few seals to be finished. Killing the BLM early is unnecessary unless ..

.. you're someone who multi boxes Ambu for gil?? Or your group religiously farms Ambu each month? Then yeah .. figure out the fast method as it's gonna' save time. But there's no need in putting others down for wanting to do it the safer method .. they want to ensure they get the win with their seals used up. Nothing wrong with that.
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By Sylph.Reain 2019-01-29 14:32:02
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I think the fast method is probably both easier and faster. I don't think Yoichinoyumi will make a difference to either strategy.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-01-29 14:36:04
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Sylph.Reain said: »
I think the fast method is probably both easier and faster. I don't think Yoichinoyumi will make a difference to either strategy.

Depends on the group. I can see how picking up randoms who are not used to party situations can find a way to mess it up. If it can happen on a small server, I can only imagine what it's like on Asura. From what I read, it's pretty easy to kill the BLM early and simply position correctly. But if you're taking randoms who are perhaps not good at understanding, or there's a language barrier .. then it might be easier to revert to the safe method.

In my one run this month, the PLD who joined us had a language barrier. They could write simple English, but I wasn't able to have a detailed conversation. If it was one of my endgame linkshell's tanks .. then for sure, I'd have explained it and we'd have figured it out to save time.
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By Sylph.Reain 2019-01-29 14:59:12
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I think safe is an interesting word choice.

The fast method makes the fight very predictable. Lessens the amount of monsters you have to kill/damage you have to deal. Avoids the damage type mechanic. Removes 2 Benedictions and shortens the fight by 50%+.

If you survive the curse/plague move, which you can choose exactly when to trigger and your tank gets hate back it becomes hard to lose the fight.

I think it does favor a RUN tank massively though. One for all and Flabra valiance can help compensate for bad and it's easier to get hate back after reset, plus better hate tools to hold hate from 99k WS.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-01-29 15:05:49
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The gimmick is simple, but from Senk's testimonials it seems there's groups who somehow struggle with it. I'm not going to judge, I'm sure these groups could handle it with enough time/practice.

But for whatever reason (like the PLD I had), some would rather take longer to be 100% certain of no wipes. It sucks, but that's what happens sometimes. Some are not willing to experiment. They read "safer" method, and they stick to it like super glue.
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-29 15:23:42
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It boils down to people not using Caress properly and/or people who aren't the WHM casting the -na thus making Caress unusable.

It's very small stuff that can easily be avoided but in some contexts, it's not possible.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-01-29 15:26:17
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OK; caress is a completely moot point.

You have 2 bodies getting stoned. and require next to zero heals. Stona is instant cast and zero recast. There should be absolutely zero issue.

Does divine caress save you literally 6 seconds, totally.

Does that 6 seconds matter at all. Nope.
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By aisukage 2019-01-29 15:38:27
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
The gimmick is simple, but from Senk's testimonials it seems there's groups who somehow struggle with it.

Imo If the DD's / tank you bring are capable of doing the long method. Then they are capable of doing the fast method (Infact it's easier on the DD and tank doing the fast method). The only factor in difference between the 2 methods is WHM. Which is why myself and Afania recommend gearing WHM rather than worry about Yoichi.

But to each their own.
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-29 15:52:55
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
There should be absolutely zero issue.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing.

But reality is another beast.

aisukage said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
The gimmick is simple, but from Senk's testimonials it seems there's groups who somehow struggle with it.

Imo If the DD's / tank you bring are capable of doing the long method. Then they are capable of doing the fast method (Infact it's easier on the DD and tank doing the fast method). The only factor in difference between the 2 methods is WHM. Which is why myself and Afania recommend gearing WHM rather than worry about Yoichi.

But to each their own.
The problem is that while it makes sense you just push the problem somewhere else.

I tell you that I have a situation under control and that I'd like to know if this little detail would make it better and you're like "no, take down this wall, build another". Sure, why not, but what about my question?

There is a point where it's not about being right but about answering (or not) a question rather than thinking that person is actually asking for you to be their savior.

I mean, I've been explaining this several times and you still don't get it. But hey, I guess it all boils down to "to each their own lol".

Even if I geared WHM tonight I'd still be wondering about the practicality, for curiosity sake, and while you'll be happy that someone followed your wise words, the answer would still be unanswered.

You guys really like to argue when there isn't a need to, eh.
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By Asura.Hiraishinsenna 2019-01-29 16:45:30
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even if you were to make yoichi I don't think that would make it much easier/faster for you, you'd still have the problem of dealing magic damage to adds. A decent cor should be able to deal with the adds when they're in magic/ranged mode.From a DD perspective there are 3 adds in that phase + boss that you can damage,from my experience they use to shift mode every 30 seconds ish, just engage adds/boss and take down( or damage the boss) the ones that are taking melee damage until they change resistance again. Those 30 seconds should be plenty of time to kill an add.
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-29 17:19:53
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As I've said several times in the last two pages, magic isn't a problem.

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By Asura.Hiraishinsenna 2019-01-29 17:31:45
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how long does it take you to kill an add with murasame though ..
compared to a basic leaden cor
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-29 17:59:51
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10 more seconds? Who knows, it's probably enough to trigger a lot of people anyway.

But why are you talking about COR when you are butting in a "discussion" about killing faster as SAM? I'm trying to understand you here.
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By Afania 2019-01-29 18:01:07
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
But there's no need in putting others down for wanting to do it the safer method .. they want to ensure they get the win with their seals used up. Nothing wrong with that.

But nobody is putting others down for wanting to do safe method, and nobody randomly pop on the forum attack others for wanting to ranged attack. People simply offered opinion because OP asked for it.

This is what he said:

Quote:
I clear VD the "normal" way without problem when I get people who aren't overestimating themselves, I was just wondering if getting Yoichi to last stage would help me remove some of the burden when recruiting people or if it wasn't reliable enough.

TL;DR: do I have the gear that would let me damage and stay alive? Yes. Will I have the Stona and whatever else is needed to get ***done? No.

He presented a problem in his post(no stona), and we simply offered a solution to his problem(be the whm). How the hell did this solution offended OP or even imply we are bashing his strategy for being too slow is something I dont get. You are both overreacting on trivial things.

If OP doesnt like "play whm" suggestion, then dont complain about stona on the forum. Just ask for ranged sets in sam thread and he wont get the "play whm" opinion that he dislikes for whatever reasons.

Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »

- The Asura comment was about a mentality, not the place. You have that mentality (assumptions, talking about subscription etc.)

Nobody is judging nor assuming anything. You are the one who brought up "no stona" talk lol. Of course the first answer you will get is "play whm" which is directly tied to solution for stona.

If you are dead set to play ranged sam, the best way to ask for ranged set advice is to ask ranged sam related question rather than complain about stona.
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By Pantafernando 2019-01-29 18:18:00
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
As I've said several times in the last two pages, magic isn't a problem.


Jinpu doesnt work?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-01-29 18:21:25
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No, so the tl:dr for that is they have massive PDT jinpu would do... 5 damage on the main hit+ magic hit. Which would be less than a fudo with mura.

it's still silly either way. I would just wait for the physical phase and kill them instead of bothering to switch weapons.

Though... I have not the slightest *** idea what/how they shift phases lol. waste of time.

Senk. if you're already winning and you just want to speed it up, *** any bow with apex arrow is sufficient tbh. it's not worth wasting 50m on plutons just for this.
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-29 18:40:55
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Afania said: »
If you are dead set to play ranged sam, the best way to ask for ranged set advice is to ask ranged sam related question rather than complain about stona.
You're still not reading what I write. "Hey, do you want to eat sushi?" "No thank you" "oh ok, but hey, do you want to eat sushi? "no thank you" "ok ok, fine, but how about sushi?".

It's still a big no.

Asura.Eiryl said: »
Senk. if you're already winning and you just want to speed it up, *** any bow with apex arrow is sufficient tbh. it's not worth wasting 50m on plutons just for this.
This made me remember about Cibitshavore. I'll try it.
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By Afania 2019-01-29 19:20:51
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Afania said: »
If you are dead set to play ranged sam, the best way to ask for ranged set advice is to ask ranged sam related question rather than complain about stona.
You're still not reading what I write. "Hey, do you want to eat sushi?" "No thank you" "oh ok, but hey, do you want to eat sushi? "no thank you" "ok ok, fine, but how about sushi?".

That wasnt this convo at all lol. Its more like this:

"hey, Im considering pizza because I have allergy problem with sushi"

"ok, to fix your allergy problem you can try this...."

"But I never ask for sushi! I asked for pizza to begin with!"

".....why do you mention your problem with sushi in the first place if you are dead set with pizza......"

Tl;dr: you talked about your problem in VD completely wrong, thats why you get an answer that you dont like. You should have talk about the effectiveness of ranged sam (in general) to begin with rather than complain about stona and the lack of people.

Edit: also just fyi, I have absolutely zero intention to convince anyone do things my way. It just seems that way because I approach problems different from you. If stona is an issue, I would prefer to fix stona, rather than change strategy to ranged. Just because you prefer different way, doesnt mean Im judging nor trying to force you to do it my way. I think you overreact anyways.
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By Asura.Haxetc 2019-01-29 19:56:08
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I love sushi personally
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By aisukage 2019-01-29 21:39:12
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and Afania is spot on. You asked a question to benefit your runs. People gave suggestions to better your runs. People obviously don't think it's worth the gil if they are offering you other and better suggestions. If you don't like them then move on. Why are you set on 1 thing arguing about it.

you also already know the answer you asked about. During ranged mode will a stronger bow than i am already able to use help my damage to speed my runs up.... ofcourse it will. Why did you even come and ask a silly question.

weather to spend your 10k plutons for it is entirely upto you but you already knew the answer you were asking.
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-30 04:17:52
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aisukage said: »
and Afania is spot on. You asked a question to benefit your runs. People gave suggestions to better your runs. People obviously don't think it's worth the gil if they are offering you other and better suggestions. If you don't like them then move on. Why are you set on 1 thing arguing about it.

you also already know the answer you asked about. During ranged mode will a stronger bow than i am already able to use help my damage to speed my runs up.... ofcourse it will. Why did you even come and ask a silly question.

weather to spend your 10k plutons for it is entirely upto you but you already knew the answer you were asking.
It took I don't know how many posts just to have one saying that it's most likely not worth it.
I mean, even if that person didn't go into details like "yeah if you self light it won't kill an add so, not really worth it" or similar, it's still miles better than "don't do this, do that instead" even after I've explained why it won't happen.

There are ways to discuss things and then there are ways to be overzealous/superfluous and so on. The overreaction came from the frustration that I was talking to two people who aren't trying to understand the situation or that from a specific point of view, it's actually easier this way. You can't fathom it, I get it, and I actually understand why. If anything, my mistake was to not drop it once I understood that you can't fathom it.

Even now, you are still not trying to understand. So, I believe you've got that "If you don't like them then move on" reversed. If you are unable to listen/read what someone says, why even answer them?
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By SimonSes 2019-01-30 05:18:39
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Afania said: »
Sounds like you just want people agree with your decision on yoichi at this point.

I think this is exactly what he wants tbh :)
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-01-30 08:09:53
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Afania said: »
"hey, Im considering pizza because I have allergy problem with sushi"

"ok, to fix your allergy problem you can try this...."

"But I never ask for sushi! I asked for pizza to begin with!"

".....why do you mention your problem with sushi in the first place if you are dead set with pizza......"
You sound like a lot of mediterranean moms haha.

But anyway, it's more like:

"I've been eating ***, you get used to the taste but I wonder if pizza on top would be better"
"Dude, you shouldn't eat ***and pizza is ***too, anyway, eat sushi!"
"I can't, I'm allergic"
"What the *** dude, I'm trying to find solutions for you and you just reject them, admit you're just D E A D S E T on eating pizza and that's it"
"No I'm actually just wond..."
"Pfft, come on, just admit it, it's ok, you're the one paying anyway"
"No, really, I'm fine eating ***, I'm just curi..."
*aunt jumps in*
"YOUR MOM IS SPOT ON, JUST ADMIT IT"
"I swear I'm just cur..."
"SEE, EVEN YOUR AUNT CAN SEE IT"

Circle jerk until the end of time.
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 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2019-01-30 09:08:21
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
You guys really like to argue when there isn't a need to, eh.

nuh-uh! you do!
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2019-01-30 10:54:25
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YouTube Video Placeholder


its toxic
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By Afania 2019-01-30 13:46:30
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
There are ways to discuss things and then there are ways to be overzealous/superfluous and so on. The overreaction came from the frustration that I was talking to two people who aren't trying to understand the situation or that from a specific point of view,

Thats wrong expectation on a forum communication though. You are talking to people on forums that would not possibly know you in game. It isnt other posters reponsibility to know what you are really thinking if you dont post precise questions nor explain your situation clearly.

If you communicate your issue as "stona problem" of course you would get "play whm" as reply, since yoichi is a much less popular rema choice of course vast majority of people wont recommend it over play whm.

And of course it isnt others responsibility to read your mind and guess how many capable people that you have, what kind of tank and dd you have, or guess your pov on building a super niche rema, and so on, to justify yoichi. Its your responsibility to explain these things. We simply just respond a solution to a problem presented in text.

Then you got mad over other people for "not understanding your problem"......-.- Im not trying to sound mean but I feel Im talking to a teenager who demands everyone to understand every silly problem of theirs lol.

I mean, there are multiple person in this entire thread replying "dont understand your problem".....so maybe its more of a communication issue and less of everyone else being a jerk?
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By Lili 2019-01-30 14:06:43
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Afania said: »
I mean, there are multiple person in this entire thread replying "dont understand your problem".....so maybe its more of a communication issue and less of everyone else being a jerk?

He asked for an opinion
A bunch of people gave him a solution to a problem

Problem != Opinion

He did not ask "hey how do I get around this stona problem"
Hence the whole misunderstanding.

Asking for an opinion and receiving unrequested solutions to a different (if related) problem is a very common issue on online communication, because we're all giant nerds that thing of the world in "problems to solve". But sometimes there's no problem to solve, and by attempting to do so you're only missing the point of the question in the first place, leading other people to pitch in other aspects of the solution, diluting the original point even further.

Like that one time when I asked somebody
"hey I think I can melee on smn/sam on this NM, does anybody have insight into that?"
"Yes, sub /rdm, call tank trusts and AC Flaming Crush"
"no but I want to try meleeing"
"but zerging it is faster and safer"
"okay ty but I want to melee"
and then the discussion degenerated to arguing that AC zerg is faster than smn melee. No ***it's faster, it's just not what I was trying to do for some reasons that I did not choose to share.

And even if they're shitty reasons, it's still my sub and I am entitled to be dumb with it if I want, for shits and giggles if nothing else.
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 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-01-30 14:23:40
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Lili said: »
And even if they're shitty reasons, it's still my sub and I am entitled to be dumb with it if I want, for shits and giggles if nothing else.

Hey look, it's the time-honored "it's my $11.95!"
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By Afania 2019-01-30 14:24:42
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Lili said: »
Afania said: »
I mean, there are multiple person in this entire thread replying "dont understand your problem".....so maybe its more of a communication issue and less of everyone else being a jerk?

He asked for an opinion
A bunch of people gave him a solution to a problem

Problem != Opinion

He did not ask "hey how do I get around this stona problem"
Hence the whole misunderstanding.

Asking for an opinion and receiving unrequested solutions to a problem is a very common issue on online communication, because we're all giant nerds that thing of the world in "problems to solve". But sometimes there's no problem to solve, and by attempting to do so you're only missing the point of the question in the first place, leading other people to pitch in other aspects of the solution, diluting the original point even further.

Like that one time when I asked somebody
"hey I think I can melee on smn/sam on this NM, does anybody have insight into that?"
"Yes, sub /rdm, call tank trusts and AC Flaming Crush"
"no but I want to try meleeing"
"but zerging it is faster and safer"
"okay ty but I want to melee"
and then the discussion degenerated to arguing that AC zerg is faster than smn melee. No ***it's faster, it's just not what I was trying to do for some reasons that I did not choose to share.

And even if they're shitty reasons, it's still my sub and I am entitled to be dumb with it if I want, for shits and giggles if nothing else.

Its unrealistic to expect everyone on the forum to reply the way he wants, though. There are no set rules on when and how people would post their opinion on a subject in online disucussion.

He asked for an opinion about yoichi at start, which I didnt involve in the discussion at all, nor I randomly pop and bash him for wanting to do slow way. It only turn into whm/stona/lack of capable people discussion after he mentioned stona problem. Then I briefly talked about my opinion on solving it.

If he doesnt benefit from these opinion, he can choose to ignore it. If he doesnt want to read peoples opinion about whm and stona, then he shouldnt mention it at all. He mentioned the stona problem, and demand other peoples opinion about stona has to align with his expectation, and got salty and mad on forum in multiple posts because things dont go his way, dont you think thats overreacting?

I dont run around tell people to ac zerg if they ask for melee strat suggestion. But it is annoying to see muiltiple posts complain about stona and lead the discussion that way, then when I share my experience deal with stona its immediately read as elitist trying to preach their strategy with mad people overreacting over it.
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