Carnwenhan

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Carnwenhan
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By SimonSes 2021-06-15 07:50:49
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Asura.Lunafreya said: »
The conversation should start and end with the fact that Carn allows you to full time Marcato Honor March. Doubling your best song’s effectiveness and having that up 100% of the time, barring a mass dispel type of enemy, justifies carn. Re-singing Honor without Marcato and then singing it a third time when Marcato is ready again is wayyy less efficient than just singing it once every 10 minutes whether you’re dd-ing or not. Not to mention you have a period of time where Honor isn’t doubled in power resulting in a party wide loss in dps compared to if they had the Marcato’d song the entire time.

And I get that you can manipulate the JA timers to get around this a little bit but it still results in a situation where you could have been doing other things during that time.

All good, but Marcato isnt doubling the effect. It's 1.5x buff. Again just info, not argument.
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 Asura.Lunafreya
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By Asura.Lunafreya 2021-06-15 09:14:41
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You are right! I misspoke. Thanks for catching that.
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 Asura.Panasync
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By Asura.Panasync 2021-06-15 12:13:30
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Asura.Lunafreya said: »
You are right! I misspoke. Thanks for catching that.
By the end of this post, I certainly hope you're consistent enough to point out how your whole series of posts are you misspeaking about Marcato Honor March, as it's just as big a mistake on your part as the one Simon corrects you on. Who are we kidding though, we already know that's not the case, you seem to have quoted a line from TMNT2 instead, ~Ninja Vanish~

Asura.Lunafreya said: »
The conversation should start and end with the fact that Carn allows you to full time Marcato Honor March.

You can do this without Carn.

Quote:
And I get that you can manipulate the JA timers to get around this a little bit but it still results in a situation where you could have been doing other things during that time.

Honor is one of the few songs you don't have to actually have to draw out the cast, MHM lasts 10m plus by itself, so it's a non-issue.

Also, you started off your comment stating whether the weapon is worth it right now or not rests on the fact it can keep HM up with Marcato 100% of the time. I see people parrot this so much I had to go in game to make sure of what I already knew, but it's said so often you'd think the non-carn duration was like sub 7 minutes.

https://i.imgur.com/BH4PhGC.png
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-06-15 13:30:27
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in the time you've spent fighting about how the best weapon for your job isn't worth its cost you could have farmed all of the ZNM pops needed to make one from the NNI campaign currently running.

We honestly are still arguing over if something is financially "worth" it in a 19 year old game? None of the high end ***we buy is worth it. We don't get it because its value to performance improvement can be quantified into a direct gil amount...we get fancy ***because its fun to build up jobs and put some time into it.
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By dontclickme 2021-06-15 13:45:05
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Asura.Panasync said: »
Asura.Lunafreya said: »
The conversation should start and end with the fact that Carn allows you to full time Marcato Honor March.

You can do this without Carn.

Quote:
And I get that you can manipulate the JA timers to get around this a little bit but it still results in a situation where you could have been doing other things during that time.

Honor is one of the few songs you don't have to actually have to draw out the cast, MHM lasts 10m plus by itself, so it's a non-issue.

Also, you started off your comment stating whether the weapon is worth it right now or not rests on the fact it can keep HM up with Marcato 100% of the time. I see people parrot this so much I had to go in game to make sure of what I already knew, but it's said so often you'd think the non-carn duration was like sub 7 minutes.

https://i.imgur.com/BH4PhGC.png

So HM can be maintained, but not the other 3. So you're either having to refresh the other 3 without NiTro, bait a few seconds, the reapply with NiTro. Which is quite a bit of time that could be spent doing other things. Like enfeebling or DD'ing. Or you could just let them fall off entirely while you wait for CDs, in which case your party members are left dead in the water.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-06-15 14:15:01
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
We honestly are still arguing over if something is financially "worth" it in a 19 year old game? None of the high end ***we buy is worth it. We don't get it because its value to performance improvement can be quantified into a direct gil amount...we get fancy ***because its fun to build up jobs and put some time into it.

We all overvalue/undervalue things in this game. Either everything is worth it, or none of it is. You can take shortcuts and use lesser gear/weapons if you want, or you can go for the absolute best and feel good that you have reached the top of your performance, gear-wise. I promise you that most people wouldn't even be able to spot the difference between the two, so long as you are performing adequately. Unless you told them.
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 Asura.Panasync
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By Asura.Panasync 2021-06-15 14:18:58
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
in the time you've spent fighting about how the best weapon for your job isn't worth its cost you could have farmed all of the ZNM pops needed to make one from the NNI campaign currently running.
I wish it were that quick.

That said, I'm not fighting about it, I'm taking a position on the question posed in the first post. I don't see an issue with stating said opinion, and if someone has a point to be made from my opinion discussing said point. I don't really understand your objection to it, it seems as if some people are taking it personally for some odd reason.

I'm also (as I've repeatedly stated) by no means suggesting the weapon is worthless and nobody should bother getting it. Hell I'm making one myself.

Quote:
We honestly are still arguing over if something is financially "worth" it in a 19 year old game? None of the high end ***we buy is worth it. We don't get it because its value to performance improvement can be quantified into a direct gil amount...we get fancy ***because its fun to build up jobs and put some time into it.
I don't think there is anything wrong with that. My issue is more with the sentiment it's current value in regards to what it affords players is currently mandatory in the same way someone would say a 99 Daurdabla is. That's simply not the case in my opinion, and thus why I've stated why I believe that in prior posts.

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So HM can be maintained
Marcato HM can be maintained 100%, and that was the entire point of his post. To quote him,

"The conversation should start and end with the fact".

Quote:
, but not the other 3.
The 'other 3' are normal potency songs, if you're concerned with the potential game breaking 5 seconds of downtime while you're reapplying, you can simply take 10 seconds to reapply prior to them falling, but I don't think the 5 seconds is make or breaking any content. We're talking single digit seconds here, and that's if we ignore the fact this can easily be remedied.

Quote:
So you're either having to refresh the other 3 without NiTro, bait a few seconds, the reapply with NiTro. Which is quite a bit of time that could be spent doing other things.

The fact we're having to stretch so far to have any rejections is really unnecessary, and telling to me at least.

With current fast cast/- casting time gear it takes at most a second to apply a buff, so 3 seconds every ten minutes, and you're expecting me to accept this is so damaging to all these perfectly executed zone speed runs we're all doing?

Quote:
Like enfeebling or DD'ing. Or you could just let them fall off entirely while you wait for CDs, in which case your party members are left dead in the water.
Let's pretend those 5 seconds of being dead in the water is an actual issue and not a pretend one, sub a job that let's you DW, use a second Kali, now you're playing with power, Nintendo Power.

I hesitate to repeat myself again as if you're not getting it by now I don't think restating it is going to change anything but, I'm not suggesting it's worthless, or people shouldn't get one. I'm currently making one myself. My point is that it is an upgrade without question, it is not however such a significant upgrade to the point it changes the job in any meaningful way in its current state.

EDIT: Buukki stated it far more succinctly than I have in his latest post above this.
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By dontclickme 2021-06-15 14:46:27
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I'm agreeing with you in regards to the HM thing. Confused as to why that was even singled out.

Those "normal potency songs" are what things like madrigal. Whose down time in content like W3 are pretty important, regardless if being low manned or doing a "speed run". A large drop in a party's accuracy is pretty significant. Not some "pretend" scenario.

And again, I agree it's nothing game breaking. the primary benefit of Carn is to allow you the "wiggle room" to maintain buffs more easily/efficiently while also being a pretty good DD option.
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By Asura.Panasync 2021-06-15 14:54:30
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dontclickme said: »
I'm agreeing with you in regards to the HM thing. Confused as to why that was even singled out.
Because you brought up the non marcato'ed songs -- I was trying to emphasize the reason for why I originally didn't bring it up -- which were for two reasons really, one of which and really the main reason, was him stating the only one that truly mattered was the MHM.

Secondly, the 3 other songs don't need to fall off at all as they're normal potency and can easily be reapplied prior to them dropping. I struggle to believe that taking 13 extra seconds to reapply is an actual problem in the way it's being presented.

The downsides to not having Carn in reality are miniscule, but the issues are being presented as if they're this huge discrepancy between the two when that is simply not the case.

Quote:
Those "normal potency songs" are what things like madrigal. Whose down time in content like W3 are pretty important, regardless if being low manned or doing a "speed run". A large drop in a party's accuracy is pretty significant. Not some "pretend" scenario.
There is no downtime in any serious real life situation.

If we are to ignore that fact, and assume there is a downtime, again, we're talking probably ~5-10 (song depending as Mad is less than Min) seconds every 10 minutes. That isn't a real issue. Hell the way some people run around during events you're probably having it happen more to people not giving a ***about their own buffs and running off to attack prior to letting the BRD finish singing in most cases.

Quote:
And again, I agree it's nothing game breaking. the primary benefit of Carn is to allow you the "wiggle room" to maintain buffs more easily/efficiently while also being a pretty good DD option.
I agree, I've stated as much, but I don't think a buffer that erases ~5 seconds of hypothetical and not actual downtime is enough of a reason to then go on to state that it's a mandatory upgrade the way Daurdabla 99 or even Gjallarhorn 99 is.

EDIT: Plugged in Simon's number(s).
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By SimonSes 2021-06-15 15:09:24
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It takes around 13 sec to reapply 3 songs. It's around 1.5 casting time and 3 sec delay after casting X3. Again just info, not argument :P

Edit: to be precise you have songs in around 10+ sec, but BRD is busy for 13+
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By Vaerix 2021-06-15 15:18:44
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Asura.Panasync said: »
dontclickme said: »
I'm agreeing with you in regards to the HM thing. Confused as to why that was even singled out.
Because you brought up the non marcato'ed songs, I was simply stating I didn't bring it up for two reasons, one of which was him stating the only one that truly mattered was the MHM.

Secondly, the 3 other songs don't need to fall off at all as they're normal potency and can easily be reapplied prior to them dropping. I struggle to believe that taking 3 extra seconds to reapply is an actual problem in the way it's being presented.

Quote:
Those "normal potency songs" are what things like madrigal. Whose down time in content like W3 are pretty important, regardless if being low manned or doing a "speed run". A large drop in a party's accuracy is pretty significant. Not some "pretend" scenario.
There is no downtime in any serious real life situation.

If we are to ignore that fact, and assume there is a downtime, again, we're talking probably 5 seconds every 10 minutes. That isn't a real issue. Hell the way some people run around during events you're probably having it happen more to people not giving a ***about their own buffs and running off to attack prior to letting the BRD finish singing in most cases.

Quote:
And again, I agree it's nothing game breaking. the primary benefit of Carn is to allow you the "wiggle room" to maintain buffs more easily/efficiently while also being a pretty good DD option.
I agree, I've stated as much, but I don't think a buffer of ~5 seconds is enough of a reason to then go on to state that it's a mandatory upgrade the way Daurdabla 99 or even Gjallarhorn 99 is.

I had a non carnwenhan brd 2nd box for almost 2 years without ever thinking that carnwenhan was mandatory. At the time I viewed it as something that would be nice to have. THE ONLY situation that ever came up that showed me I NEEDED mythic (read:in order to do x effectively I needed it) was odyssey. You have 15 min fights, spend 1-2 minutes buffing and carn makes your ridiculous super buffs last until the end 90% of the time with no reapplication outside of dispel. Just like what everyone else has said if 3-4 songs are going to run out before MHM you reapply them once MHM hits 4 minutes, why 4 min? Then when nitro is up, it's smooth, you have 4 whole minutes to find an appropriate time and place to reapply songs. AND it's as easy as a 2 macros for 5 song or 4 song maintenance.

Does that preclude a brd from being a dd? 1 24s macro, 1 18s macro? No. While I would agree that carn has enabled me to more effectively dual box and dd as my bard it's not end of the world without it, I just didn't spend enough time learning to multibox bard without carn (read: that's a player choice/issue)

Am I saying carn is bad, no not at all, I love it, and I think it's amazing. Am I saying carn is not worth getting, yes and no. If you're not a career bard, or have any other mythic you want and are able to clear the content you want with your REA bard, then yes carnwenhan is not necessary. If you're a career bard and want to maximize your downtime between songs to make your life easier and your party stronger for an extra 2 minutes of SV, the no carn is 100% worth getting and will make your playtime and life much easier.

I'm glad I made carn for my career bard, but that's what he is, a career bard. He probably won't own any other Rema aside from maybe aeonic for any other job, and that's okay for me. But if you play any other job with a strong, class changing mythic, Smn, Whm, Pld, Cor, Rng, Blu, Bst, Thf, then maybe make those jobs mythic instead and enjoy 2 classes that are competitive at the highest levels of the game.

CARNWENHAN IS A GREAT WEAPON, your mileage may vary.
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By macsdf1 2021-06-15 16:56:24
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it matters if u move around alot
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By Slowforever 2021-06-19 13:04:02
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after singing dummy songs and waiting 30sec with nitro / troup you can drop main songs and they will last till your 10 min cds are up again if you have bis or near bis. 4:40 duration.
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