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Dev Tracker - Discussion
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By SimonSes 2022-08-06 04:51:34
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Starbucks said: »
I still don't understand this super charged amps business

Step1: Do 3 fights in one enter and take NM to 94% at least in all 3 fights. That will boost amplifier on next run if you choose to use it and wont disappear until you use it and you dont need to buy amplifier before doing this, but you need one for step2.
Step2: Go again and use amplifier and take mob to at least 94% (can use amplifier after you take mob to 94%, order is not important). This will give you (after you time out, assuming you wont kill that NM) amplifier bonus multiplier of x8 (instead of normal x2 that amplifier gives without bonus). If you make additional 2 fights, beside the one you used amplifier on (so total of 3), you will get bonus again for next run. So you can keep doing 3 fights per one enter and keep getting bonus and keep using amplifier with bonus.

Now amplifier with bonus has 8x multiplier like I said. Base RP that is multiplied by that 8 depends on avg Vengeance level of fights you did in run where you earned the bonus (rounding down). So if you make fights 1 V15, fight 2 V20, fight 3 V19, then you will have avg of 18. then to check what base RP that gives you go here and check table that shows Vengeance and RP earned. You can see its 564 for V18, so the bonus when you use amplifier will be 8x564=4512
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By Starbucks 2022-08-06 05:58:10
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But someone told me yesterday to just use an amplifier on every run when doing 1 Bumba a time and exiting. If I did that would I never get a super charge, or would I get it on the third one I did?
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By Starbucks 2022-08-06 06:00:51
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Something else that came to my mind - could adding a brew be a way to make it more casual friendly? If it cost something like 5k points so if still slowed you down but did let you be able to kill V20s every now and then with amplifier.
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By Afania 2022-08-06 06:41:45
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Bahamut.Justthetip said: »
Most care about wins or understanding the content they do unlike most casual players when they just winging it and just there for "fun/carry".

The "casual players" that I described in the post above wasn't indicating anything to do with skill/knowledge/dedication, it meant people who only play 1-2 hr a day.

And the "no lifers" that I described above means people who do play 10-20 hrs a day.

Maybe you used such terms differently, but in that specific post that's how I used it. It was more about the time investment than actual skill/knowledge.

My point is that a game shouldn't encourage people spending all of their time playing a game only because they have that much time. Not just because it separates the playerbase, but also because it's objectively unhealthy.

Remember how FFXI got criticized because players play 18hr straight fighting PW years ago? Using Baniak's logic "if they want to play 18 hours a day it's their choice and they should be allowed to", which I disagree with.

I never ask for a difficulty nerf, nor demand SE handing out free gears to everyone. I didn't say anybody should be able to kill anything and have equal gears. That would be entitlement and selfish like Baniak said. I simply only said the progression gap between people who play less and people who play all shouldn't be drastic in a game, that's it.
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By Lili 2022-08-06 06:53:17
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Leviathan.Kingkitt said: »
Lili said: »
This means that until they're R15 (and it's going to take a minute)
If you have a supercharged amp, you can do this in one triple using amps. So it really doesn't take long at all.

To be able to fight one V20 with supercharged amp one would need 3000*4 + 1500*4 = 18000 segments, and access to V20 fights and people able to deal with them. This means either grinding their way up, mercing, or friends carrying them.

Somebody with everything R0 is also unlikely to have access to regular 9k+ segments runs, realistically we're talking 1500-3000, and probably not everyday because if you're running everyday then most likely you have a static which means you also need to climb your way up to v20 clears, which is definitely going to take a minute.

(if they are asking about it here it's very unlikely they have a group of friends online carrying them through content, which would make them not need to ask in the first place)

So yeah, it's certainly possible to get a piece to r15 on your second or third day of doing Ody, but outside of those uncommon circumstances that permit it, it's most likely going to take a minute, and there's much bigger gains to be made outside of Nyame Sollerets in that time.

Not impossible, just unlikely, and not an hour, just a minute.
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By Asura.Hiraishinsenna 2022-08-06 06:57:37
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No, they weren't talking of takibg 5% off and exiting, this won't result in the amplifier being charged. What they told you is you enter bumba take 5% off and wait for the 15 minutes to expire. Then enter again with a different combination of jobs, take 5% off, let time expire and do that a third time with different jobs again. Once you exit the arena you'll get the message that your amplifier is charged, which you'll use for another bumba, 5% or kill to get 5k points.
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By Starbucks 2022-08-06 07:18:35
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Lili said: »
Somebody with everything R0 is also unlikely to have access to regular 9k+ segments runs, realistically we're talking 1500-3000, and probably not everyday because if you're running everyday then most likely you have a static which means you also need to climb your way up to v20 clears, which is definitely going to take a minute.
I only join pick up groups and they get 8-10k now generally, 6k is low ball. I don't know what happened over time (I only play free to play every few months) but either people's gear and M level made it easier, or people just got better, but everything is so much smoother now. The thing I noticed most is that tanks don't derp and leeroy jenkins like idiots anymore (maybe I got lucky recently) and seem to know what to do much better from experience.
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By Starbucks 2022-08-06 07:19:05
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Asura.Hiraishinsenna said: »
No, they weren't talking of takibg 5% off and exiting, this won't result in the amplifier being charged. What they told you is you enter bumba take 5% off and wait for the 15 minutes to expire. Then enter again with a different combination of jobs, take 5% off, let time expire and do that a third time with different jobs again. Once you exit the arena you'll get the message that your amplifier is charged, which you'll use for another bumba, 5% or kill to get 5k points.
Thanks, that helps a lot. But do I use any amplifiers at all for the first 3 or only when I get to the 4th?
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-06 09:42:26
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Your choice. You can use amplifiers at any time to get increased RP, but it is not required on any of the initial 3. Obviously, it makes sense to use amplifiers on the first 3-boss-run and the 4th (and subsequent) run(s), and Thorny's example of Bumba takes into account the RP gained from a 5-6% damage dealt loss with an amp bonus. But if for whatever reason you're short on segments and can't afford to expend 4500 extra segments on amps, you can just choose to use it on your 4th. IMO, complete waste to not amp, but TETO
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By SimonSes 2022-08-06 11:03:25
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Afania said: »
Remember how FFXI got criticized because players play 18hr straight fighting PW years ago? Using Baniak's logic "if they want to play 18 hours a day it's their choice and they should be allowed to", which I disagree with.

Don't mix such things. Playing 18+ hours without any breaks and being completely focused on hard fight was simply on the edge of creating health issues and that's why it was a problem. Playing 10h, with breaks for eating, drink, toilet and some stretching is completely something else.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-08-06 11:04:11
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Lili said: »
Leviathan.Kingkitt said: »
Lili said: »
This means that until they're R15 (and it's going to take a minute)
If you have a supercharged amp, you can do this in one triple using amps. So it really doesn't take long at all.

To be able to fight one V20 with supercharged amp one would need 3000*4 + 1500*4 = 18000 segments, and access to V20 fights and people able to deal with them. This means either grinding their way up, mercing, or friends carrying them.

Somebody with everything R0 is also unlikely to have access to regular 9k+ segments runs, realistically we're talking 1500-3000, and probably not everyday because if you're running everyday then most likely you have a static which means you also need to climb your way up to v20 clears, which is definitely going to take a minute.

(if they are asking about it here it's very unlikely they have a group of friends online carrying them through content, which would make them not need to ask in the first place)

So yeah, it's certainly possible to get a piece to r15 on your second or third day of doing Ody, but outside of those uncommon circumstances that permit it, it's most likely going to take a minute, and there's much bigger gains to be made outside of Nyame Sollerets in that time.

Not impossible, just unlikely, and not an hour, just a minute.

There is a better method to this, consecutive triple NM runs. Charges are obtained when you exit the zone and expended whenever you use an amplifier. Works better for a static group who aren't looking to screw each other over by bailing once they are done "getting theirs".
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 Asura.Nyarlko
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By Asura.Nyarlko 2022-08-06 11:34:51
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Afania said: »

125750 RP required for 5 r25 pieces, 2112 RP per run, 4500 segs per run = 59.5 run = 267,933 segs total.

@10k segs per day that's 26.79 days of farming. Playing an MMO for 26 days straight isn't that long, come on.... sometimes I play the same single player game for 2-3 months straight np...

You seem to be assuming that everyone has an infinite amount of segments to spend, which is definitely not true. :( I came back to the game recently after taking a year+ break due to IRL stuff (left shortly before Gaols were released, and didn't get into farming Sheols before then due to lack of rewards that interested me at the time.) My available playtime these days is not stable enough to commit to a farming static, so I'm mostly limited to soloing. Left to my own devices, I get ~700 segments per SheolC clear, (still learning how stuff in there works, so my efficiency sucks and should hopefully go up eventually,) which means I'm looking at 383 days (~13 months) of daily farming per set just for the segments required to be carried thru the RP farm as you are describing...

I've already given up completely on the idea of unlocking V20s myself due to the ungodly climb mechanics and absolute disinterest of others to spend their own limited resources to do lower tier NMs. Odyssey structure actively discourages altruistic helping-of-others by forcing you to sacrifice your own progress for someone else's.
Odyssey could definitely stand to be made more catch-up friendly for new/returning players starting from scratch, and unless something is done soon, players like me are simply never going to be able to complete the content/augments before the playerbase moves on to the next daily thing-to-grind and Ody becomes dead content.

Fingers crossed that they at least allow us to stack entries for segment farming like Omen once Sortie is up and running for a few months.
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 Bahamut.Justthetip
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-06 12:16:53
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SimonSes said: »
Afania said: »
Remember how FFXI got criticized because players play 18hr straight fighting PW years ago? Using Baniak's logic "if they want to play 18 hours a day it's their choice and they should be allowed to", which I disagree with.

Don't mix such things. Playing 18+ hours without any breaks and being completely focused on hard fight was simply on the edge of creating health issues and that's why it was a problem. Playing 10h, with breaks for eating, drink, toilet and some stretching is completely something else.
This right here I looked at your comment just fine and standby what I said. People need to just pick what and how they spend the time they have.
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 Odin.Stayfresh
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By Odin.Stayfresh 2022-08-06 12:33:45
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Asura.Nyarlko said: »
Afania said: »

125750 RP required for 5 r25 pieces, 2112 RP per run, 4500 segs per run = 59.5 run = 267,933 segs total.

@10k segs per day that's 26.79 days of farming. Playing an MMO for 26 days straight isn't that long, come on.... sometimes I play the same single player game for 2-3 months straight np...

You seem to be assuming that everyone has an infinite amount of segments to spend, which is definitely not true. :( I came back to the game recently after taking a year+ break due to IRL stuff (left shortly before Gaols were released, and didn't get into farming Sheols before then due to lack of rewards that interested me at the time.) My available playtime these days is not stable enough to commit to a farming static, so I'm mostly limited to soloing. Left to my own devices, I get ~700 segments per SheolC clear, (still learning how stuff in there works, so my efficiency sucks and should hopefully go up eventually,) which means I'm looking at 383 days (~13 months) of daily farming per set just for the segments required to be carried thru the RP farm as you are describing...

I've already given up completely on the idea of unlocking V20s myself due to the ungodly climb mechanics and absolute disinterest of others to spend their own limited resources to do lower tier NMs. Odyssey structure actively discourages altruistic helping-of-others by forcing you to sacrifice your own progress for someone else's.
Odyssey could definitely stand to be made more catch-up friendly for new/returning players starting from scratch, and unless something is done soon, players like me are simply never going to be able to complete the content/augments before the playerbase moves on to the next daily thing-to-grind and Ody becomes dead content.

Fingers crossed that they at least allow us to stack entries for segment farming like Omen once Sortie is up and running for a few months.

This.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-08-06 12:36:20
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Lili said: »
To be able to fight one V20 with supercharged amp one would need 3000*4 + 1500*4 = 18000 segments, and access to V20 fights and people able to deal with them. This means either grinding their way up, mercing, or friends carrying them.
You only need 10500 segments for a supercharged run.

3000+1500 > 3000 > 3000 > repeat in a cycle.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-08-06 12:39:08
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Asura.Nyarlko said: »
You seem to be assuming that everyone has an infinite amount of segments to spend, which is definitely not true. :( I came back to the game recently after taking a year+ break due to IRL stuff (left shortly before Gaols were released, and didn't get into farming Sheols before then due to lack of rewards that interested me at the time.) My available playtime these days is not stable enough to commit to a farming static, so I'm mostly limited to soloing. Left to my own devices, I get ~700 segments per SheolC clear, (still learning how stuff in there works, so my efficiency sucks and should hopefully go up eventually,) which means I'm looking at 383 days (~13 months) of daily farming per set just for the segments required to be carried thru the RP farm as you are describing...
You are absolutely not limited to soloing (though 700 is still unreasonably low for solo; that's like 28 fodder mobs, less than 1 kill per minute). Either join parties or make your own; pickups are surprisingly good these days, usually getting >6k, and sometimes over 10k.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-06 12:43:06
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You are doing something completely wrong if you can only kill 20 mobs in sheol C in 30 minutes.

Also Odyssey wont be a dead content anytime soon, because there will be one more update for it.
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By Starbucks 2022-08-06 14:19:37
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SimonSes said: »
You are doing something completely wrong if you can only kill 20 mobs in sheol C in 30 minutes.

Also Odyssey wont be a dead content anytime soon, because there will be one more update for it.
At least one more or they've said R30 augment will be max?
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-06 14:22:27
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Keep in mind, if Nyarlko went straight to Sheol C, he had no Moogle Mastery, so any extra monsters pulled could be an easy wipe. Probably can't pull any Agon groups either. Also depends a lot on what job you come as
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By Afania 2022-08-06 14:32:32
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Bahamut.Justthetip said: »
People need to just pick what and how they spend the time they have.

Ideally, yes. Realistically, around 1%-3% of game players will develop video game addictions according to WHO, and these people simply can't control how they use their time in a game due to endorphins from brain.

If a game just reward or encourage players playing as long as they like, it causes serious social problems for these people.

For example, in 2010 a Korean couple had their 3 months old daughter starve to death at home due to their online video game addiction. Forcing the government to act and start regulating online games in Korea, by implementing mechanics to punish players if they play for too long in a day.

Likewise China also has similar regulation for online games, that players can only play certain amount of time per week so addiction is less of a social problem.

Hence I strongly disagree with what Baniak said here:

SimonSes said: »
Playing 10h, with breaks for eating, drink, toilet and some stretching is completely something else.

From moral/social pov, Playing games 10 hours a day everyday is NOT fine even with breaks. Maybe the lack of regulation is fine for normal people with self control, but not for people suffering from addiction who just can't control their actions.

IMO game dev absolutely shouldn't encourage nor reward player who wants to plays for that long. They should do the opposite.

Anyways, this has become a more complicated discussion that probably doesn't belong in dev tracker. Feel free to open a new topic if you want. But my stance didn't change. I think online game dev should limit players from playing 10hrs a day for moral/social responsibility reasons. 1 tag per day isn't a bad idea because of this.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-08-06 14:50:11
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Quote:
IMO game dev absolutely shouldn't encourage nor reward player who wants to plays for that long. They should do the opposite.

??

Why wouldn't a game developer want people to invest large amounts of time into their game?
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2022-08-06 15:07:57
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They shouldn't because there are supposed to be things more important than money.

But there aren't. Profit over everything.

Shouldn't be allowed to prey upon the weak willed and addicted etc
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-08-06 15:17:28
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The whole world economy would collapse if companies weren't allowed to prey upon the weak willed and/or addicted, so I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.
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By Nariont 2022-08-06 15:35:17
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I dont know where to even start, companies sell what people want, people often want something that isnt healthy/productive/efficient, thus companies make more of those, that cycle is never changing
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By gargurty 2022-08-06 15:41:53
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think thats the main reason why SE doesn't do anything about botting and multiboxing. They only care for the money. Let the guy with 6 account go his way as long as he pays his 6x monthly fee. lol
i wouldnt be surprised if most rmt's are just employees of the compeny themself. No lootboxes in here just rmt's selling gill lol
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By Seun 2022-08-07 06:09:54
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Quote:
IMO game dev absolutely shouldn't encourage nor reward player who wants to plays for that long. They should do the opposite.

??

Why wouldn't a game developer want people to invest large amounts of time into their game?


You pay the same amount whether you play 15 hours a month or 15 hours a day. They sell you a month of time upfront so they don't really care how much you use, only that it's enough to secure/retain your subscription.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-08-07 06:50:43
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imo, it always will boil down to if we want to live in a world designed to protect, or one that is free. Any protection that is helpful to the weakest in society always limits the freedom of the stronger by their very nature.

Plenty of folks are able to manage their addictions- in fact, probably more numerically than those who cannot, regardless of their vice. But we outlaw Heroin, Cocaine, and the like to protect the weaker among us.

So, what kind of world do you want? One where you're free to hang yourself, or one where rope is illegal? Because you can't have both, and typically, more complain when something is illegal than when there is collateral damage. Just look at the American Gun Debate.

tl;dr- the means don't matter. People are the same, regardless of what they abuse, and some are always going to suffer in an open society.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2022-08-07 06:57:20
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Well... You can have both.

You can have a world that doesn't make you suicidal, and then raises the price of rope in response to the new demand...

Everything about life actively depresses you, and then they sell you anti-depressants. Never fix the problem, just sell things that cover it up. Booze, drugs, video games, sex, food.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-07 07:09:45
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Afania said: »
For example, in 2010 a Korean couple had their 3 months old daughter starve to death at home due to their online video game addiction. Forcing the government to act and start regulating online games in Korea, by implementing mechanics to punish players if they play for too long in a day.

Likewise China also has similar regulation for online games, that players can only play certain amount of time per week so addiction is less of a social problem.

Hence I strongly disagree with what Baniak said here:

And I strongly disagree with punishing 97% of players, because 3% has a problem with it. If government rally care they would filter and take care of only those with the problem. If anything they should help people to stop playing by helping them. If you force people not to play one game for 10h, then they will be addicted to two or more. If you force them to stop playing online games, they will be addicted to offline games. You need to help them with their addiction by treating them, not by punishing whole society. China example is just Communism approach and I'm very against it. You better be careful what you wish for.
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 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2022-08-07 07:56:47
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Afania said: »
I simply only said the progression gap between people who play less and people who play all shouldn't be drastic in a game, that's it.

This thought has literally never been supported by this game at any stage of it. This game is a grind, people who like grinding play this game. That's why it has a hardcore following that has kept it going, but can't balloon like WoW or FFXIV. The reward for playing more and getting better gear is to make the grind more pleasant or make the way people enjoying playing more viable.

The idea that people who don't play as much shouldn't have a drastically different progression experience from people that grind defeats the purpose of a game that is an intentional grind. Walking away from that core would literally kill off the dedicated population of this game and thus the game itself.

It's an unrealistic plea to be worrying about the mental health implications of an optional, for entertainment purposes, 20 year old game that scares off new people regularly. A healthy, well balanced, life doesn't involve being up to date in FFXI, but it also doesn't involve the current state of the world either. FFXI is a particular brand of escapism that is very hard to find elsewhere in the current era of gaming and so that makes it rare or precious to the people that enjoy it, but that doesn't mean it has to be good for people.

I regularly take breaks from this game and play catch up later because sometimes I feel like grinding at the front edge of content and other times I really just don't. I keep my good friendships from the game and am willing to come back when people want to play again because I want to play with people whose company I enjoy. This really is about choosing how to use your time and asking for the game to support that choice. It's also about choosing what not to use your time on, which can totally be this game if you feel like they are wasting your time and you're not getting an enjoyment out of it. Hell even spending too much time on AH forums can be a thing you choose you want to limit because you view it as wasteful.
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