Ambuscade Volume 1-October 2017

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Ambuscade Volume 1-October 2017
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 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-10-16 12:55:35
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Played around with this finally. You can completely scrap having any sort of "main healer" (WHM, SCH) if your BRD or GEO pay enough attention. Since Regen/Pro/Shell all carry through zoning, we'd just get the GEO to change to SCH right before entry and do Regen 5ga/Pro5/Shell5 to last us the entire duration of the fight. I was curing our kiting PLD on BRD every time he passed by (or ran to him if he felt he was going to be in danger soon.)

PLD NIN MNK MNK GEO BRD

I feel like a good NIN slightly edges out a good MNK in terms of DPS this month due to having a ***ton more shadows (and as a result having to cast Utsusemi less frequently) coupled with having better FC options. Having at least 1 MNK is kinda nice though for ~60% to reduce Gen'ei Ryodan usage through Chi Blast. We managed to drop our clear time to 6 min flat.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-10-16 12:58:54
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BLU should win in terms of damage output if just using CDC (or Savage Blade) and Shun (or Ten), but I can see NIN winning out if making use of longer SCs.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-10-16 12:59:52
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Since Regen/Pro/Shell all carry through zoning, we'd just get the GEO to change to SCH right before entry and do Regen Vga/Pro5/Shell5 to last us the entire duration of the fight.
That's a pretty neat thing to do...
...when you have less than 30 people in queue before you xD xD xD
 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-10-16 13:01:23
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Since Regen/Pro/Shell all carry through zoning, we'd just get the GEO to change to SCH right before entry and do Regen Vga/Pro5/Shell5 to last us the entire duration of the fight.
That's a pretty neat thing to do...
...when you have less than 30 people in queue before you xD xD xD
Just do it when you have 3-5 left.
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-10-16 13:07:38
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We turned off auto enter and did it when there's one left.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-10-16 13:35:36
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Leviathan.Stamos said: »
They are just saying if you have two equally geared players fully paying attention, the BLU will beat the NIN because NIN's WS are worse than BLUs. No getting around that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're talking about this solely from an Ambuscade perspective (this month's), where I even saw the bare minimum NINs landing 40k ws quite easily. If the argument is that NINs WSs are much weaker but we're all capping 9s whether you're BLU or NIN< then ws damage doesn't matter and it becomes solely a matter of who can deal the most white damage the fastest, since ws will be absurdly high and similar anyways.

Not saying a BLU and NIN are on the same level, but for this ambuscade, it's not terribly as far apart as the current discussion is implying.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-10-16 13:40:03
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CDC vs Shun is irrelevant. Shun never did below 99k unless frailty disappeared and I didn't notice.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-10-16 13:41:51
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So this entire discussion about NIN being inferior dps in regards to WS damage in this month's ambuscade was for naught. Classic AH
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 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-10-16 13:48:14
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
So this entire discussion about NIN being inferior dps in regards to WS damage in this month's ambuscade was for naught. Classic AH
The discussion was about NIN's DD tiering in normal play, not this month's ambuscade. Go look at the first posts in it, last page.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-10-16 13:48:15
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The parse results from the last run we did.

Code
NIN 5182310(28.4%)
MNK 4947525(27.1%)
MNK 4417730(24.2%)
Skillchain(NIN) 1599984(8.8%)
Skillchain(MNK) 999990(5.5%)
Skillchain(MNK) 999990(5.5%)
Skillchain(BRD??) 99999(0.5%)

The best thing BLU has going for it is Store TP although not having to cast Utsusemi as much makes a big difference.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-16 13:54:13
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Leviathan.Stamos said: »
They are just saying if you have two equally geared players fully paying attention, the BLU will beat the NIN because NIN's WS are worse than BLUs. No getting around that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're talking about this solely from an Ambuscade perspective (this month's), where I even saw the bare minimum NINs landing 40k ws quite easily. If the argument is that NINs WSs are much weaker but we're all capping 9s whether you're BLU or NIN< then ws damage doesn't matter and it becomes solely a matter of who can deal the most white damage the fastest, since ws will be absurdly high and similar anyways.

Not saying a BLU and NIN are on the same level, but for this ambuscade, it's not terribly as far apart as the current discussion is implying.

No we're talking about in general, NIN suffers the same problem as MNK only to a lessor extent (mediocre WS damage scaling). It's why there are so few uber NIN's floating around (the actual topic being discussed before butt hurt egos got involved).

Quote:
It's a mid tier DD at best, not too bad if it can stay behind the monster the entire fight and ride Innin but since hate is normally rotated between DD's that won't happen. The culprit is the Katana WS's, they don't exploit very well. Ten is the only one that scales damage with TP and it's got shitty 30/30 mods instead of the more common 50/50 or 80 of the other scaling WS's. Hi would be great except it suffers the same issue that JR does, really annoying stat to pump up. Shun is decent damage 1K but it gains virtually nothing going past that unless your fighting without proper buffs. So it's weak compared to the other heavy hitters, just compare the fTP of Hi and Shun vs things like Rudras, CDC, Resolution, Stardiver or even Fudo (the weakest of the high end WS's). Hell Vorpal Blade and Evisceration have better damage scaling then Hi / Shun. Not as bad a situation as MNK, but not in the best situation either.

For this month

Quote:
Of course this months Ambuscade mechanics are such that WS Damage is almost always going to be 99K, so that weakness doesn't apply and like MNK it's strengths (Shadows / Subtle Blow) are highlighted.

Thus Ninja's (and MNK's) primary weakness as DD's (poor WS scaling) is mitigated while their respective strengths (melee damage / TP mitigation) are highlighted. Furthermore the necessity of shadows severely cripples several other jobs.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-10-16 14:06:57
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Yikes, there's people who actually believe NIN can compete with BLU in a general non-niche setting?

*moonwalks out this thread*
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-16 14:14:41
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Yikes, there's people who actually believe NIN can compete with BLU in a general non-niche setting?

*moonwalks out this thread*

Not only that, but also compete with fully buffed 2H DD's like WAR and DRK.
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By clearlyamule 2017-10-16 14:41:02
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Yikes, there's people who actually believe NIN can compete with BLU in a general non-niche setting?

*moonwalks out this thread*
You should visit the OF where people try to claim blu has never needed a nerf because it is 40% behind every other DD (including nin) except mnk and that mnk probably still beats it <.<.

Actually before I blocked some of them think they were saying pld and rdm DDs were better because they have access to Knights of the round
 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-10-16 14:44:01
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Well I hope they add more fights that high light jobs strengths more then all out dps while still making it so no job can't "play" (largely a player base issue since we all optimize these days)
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-10-16 14:55:31
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You will not bait me into any of those trivial discussions because math exists, and I don't have time to rip apart those flimsy arguments. I really thought we discussed this back in 2014. I mean it's one thing to see a very good PUP or DRG and claim he's "very good/insane". It's a totally different thing to align that very good/insane (mid level DD) player with other very good/insane (high level DD) players.

Very alarming to say the least...Deuces.

edit: with that said, I think it should be explicitly stated where we are discussing something niche or general. The argument can be made that any DD in this month's ambuscade is fine, but the line is crossed where we arbitrarily apply one very specific setting across the table. In the case of my comments above, I really thought we were talking about NIN vs BLU on an ambu v1 level, since this is the thread in question.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-10-16 15:01:03
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That was more your failure to read the context than the poster's fault.
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By hushmunkey 2017-10-16 15:05:33
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Yikes, there's people who actually believe NIN can compete with BLU in a general non-niche setting?

*moonwalks out this thread*

Not only that, but also compete with fully buffed 2H DD's like WAR and DRK.

I wasn't trying to say that NIN is greatest all time, or bash on any other DD. I was suggesting that it's competent to be more competitive than mid - tier at best.

While this Ambuscade makes light of spike dmg, it's also brought some light to jobs that have been otherwise discounted. What's particularly wonderful about this month is that competent players can achieve success without having to be x- job with x- build doing only x- actions.

With such a plethora of gear and versatility, writing off any job is not only short sighted, butt regressive. Jobs have faults and limitations - yes but to dismiss them entirely b/c they don't commonly have the same success via the same means as other jobs is not only a self - perpetuating problem for the job, but it also limits the potential for the game and community on the whole.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-16 15:06:56
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Leviathan.Vedder said: »
Well I hope they add more fights that high light jobs strengths more then all out dps while still making it so no job can't "play" (largely a player base issue since we all optimize these days)

Yeah I kinda like the "situational" jobs being able to shine in said "situations".
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-10-16 15:09:12
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The context is this discussion is in the ambuscade v1 thread. The only realistic debate about blu v nin should be which one is better for this event. I went back and read the comments between Katriina and Saevel, and the discussion started with the former stating it was better to use a NIN.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-10-16 15:12:04
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Donny, you're out of your element
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-16 15:28:57
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
The context is this discussion is in the ambuscade v1 thread. The only realistic debate about blu v nin should be which one is better for this event. I went back and read the comments between Katriina and Saevel, and the discussion started with the former stating it was better to use a NIN.


*Cough*

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
It would be great if someone spent sometime to actually map out NIN between other DD classes because its seriously neglected atm.

In response to

Asura.Saevel said: »
Because expert NIN's don't appear out of thin air, and seeing as NIN has been a very unpopular DD for awhile now, the chances of seeing them are very few. So the choice is going to be a shitty thrown together NIN or a well built expert "other DD job". This is why it's best to develop strategies with multiple selections for DD jobs.

For this event, NIN and MNK are likely the best DD's because of the mechanics involved. There is a chronic shortage of well geared seasoned players in those jobs right now due to their unpopularity so we need to make due with a more flexible strategy.
 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-10-16 15:29:45
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
The context is this discussion is in the ambuscade v1 thread. The only realistic debate about blu v nin should be which one is better for this event. I went back and read the comments between Katriina and Saevel, and the discussion started with the former stating it was better to use a NIN.
The context was Katriina arguing that NIN was only seen as bad in general use because so few people use it well, and it might be better than we think. Then, Hush jumped in saying that NIN was better than jobs like BLU in terms of DPS.
 Asura.Avallon
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By Asura.Avallon 2017-10-16 15:35:31
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
The context is this discussion is in the ambuscade v1 thread. The only realistic debate about blu v nin should be which one is better for this event. I went back and read the comments between Katriina and Saevel, and the discussion started with the former stating it was better to use a NIN.

I've done this month's Ambuscade with all manner of jobs, but the one constant that has substantially increased success of runs (which is valued tremendously when coupled with extraordinary wait times) was having at least one MAIN NIN in the party.

"Better to use a NIN" refers to moves like Gen'ei Ryodan which strips 5 shadows right off the bat. You don't need a degree in math to know that non-main NIN's do not have access to this many shadows so therein is the value for tanking the main NM.

Hate is generally bounced back and forth among the DD anyway, but if there's a NIN in the group, he/she should have more facetime with the NM so that the other DD's aren't pressured with timers.

That being said, BRD, Haste, Geo-Slow and such usually make timer problems a non-issue.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-10-16 15:48:42
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hushmunkey said: »
butt regressive

The giggles I had over this typo!
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-10-16 15:52:31
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Thanks for clarifying. I read a couple pages back and started there.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-10-16 17:25:09
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Vedder said: »
Well I hope they add more fights that high light jobs strengths more then all out dps while still making it so no job can't "play" (largely a player base issue since we all optimize these days)

Yeah I kinda like the "situational" jobs being able to shine in said "situations".

I believe that NIN can be more than that thats why I was asking for a factual map out amongst other DDs in controlled settings.

I remember there was a debate back in 2014 about it, is it relevant to project the findings back then on today's content?

Im glad that I have a group open minded enough to let NIN in End Game content and surprisingly with optimimum sc setup and buffs it does wonders.

Blade Ten can easily hit 45k-50k teamed up with a WAR or DRG and If you do manage to stay behind the NM [NIN] does so much better.

Thats not NIN Thread I will gladly follow up there if you can shed more light on the matter.

One last thing, I wonder sometimes why the idea of Subtle Blow isn't emphasized enough when doing end-game content (Mainly HELMs), Im saying this because this month V1 became so trivial once everyone was capped on it.

Thanks in advance for the feedbacks.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-16 17:52:53
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
I believe that NIN can be more than that thats why I was asking for a factual map out amongst other DDs in controlled settings.

It's just simple numbers, unless you can hack into SE's server and change the values for Katana WS's. Ten is 30/30, Savage Blade and Rudra's are better and that's without getting into the 2H jobs which absolutely demolish all 1H's in pure DPS due to having a higher attack cap. BLU hits the top of the 1H DPS, but only if their in pure DD mode and exploiting CDC (Savage has a strong secondary function if they over TP with a QA). No amount of hopes, dreams and the power of friendship will change the mods and multipliers of Katana WS's.

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
One last thing, I wonder sometimes why the idea of Subtle Blow isn't emphasized enough when doing end-game content (Mainly HELMs), Im saying this because this month V1 became so trivial once everyone was capped on it.

Because subtle blow means jack ***when you have four to six other people beating on the same NM. If you only have one or two DD's then it's very noticeable. To get an idea we have to look at how boss AI's generally work, it's

do I have TP > 1000/3000 (based on HP percentage)
If yes then do TP Move
can I cast a Spell
If yes then cast spell

And it just loops those two basic questions over and over again while paying attention to any special mode change / HP values / ect. Spells take several seconds to cast and by the time it's finished and waited the couple of seconds pause, the NM would have 10000+ TP, which is capped at 3000. So a NIN having subtle blow reduces that 10000 to 8000, which is a nice reduction but ultimately useless because all the other DD's are still smacking it. Replacing all DD's with NIN's would still give it more then 3000 TP in the time it takes to cast it's spells or do it's WS animation. Now scale everything down to six people with the only two players hitting the NM being NIN's (or MNKs) and suddenly you notice a drop. And this assuming no regain or store TP traits on the NM's. Oh and under 25% HP they use it at 1000 TP instead of 3000TP, so subtle blow just means it has lower TP bonus on it's moves. You can blame SE for altering the monster TP gain system a long time ago to prevent a certain job from using shadows to deny monsters most of their TP.

This isn't a knock on NIN, it's just not a top tier DD for various reasons explained.
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 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2017-10-17 08:00:38
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I have flamma head/feet +2 in my SAM TP set. Imo both BiS for Sam (Ken. Feet might beat Flamma, but it's very close). If you don't need STP from Ryuo at all Kendatsuba Legs are probably BiS, if you still need some STP I guess the Flamma Dirs would be ok, but a decent Aug on Valorous would probably be better with 5+ STP
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