|
|
How would you fix Bard?
 Asura.Thorva
By Asura.Thorva 2016-11-08 16:10:57
That is what most people mean by changing things to a percentage value. Fixed amount based off skill.
That's senseless. As you detail, bard's buffs already scale with gear, although outdated. This person meant percentage buffs. I never said they didn't, I said it was minimal. You made a statement about the way geo bubbles worked, I explained that was the same system people wanted on other support roles.
Quote: Quote: ...
A geo/rdm can single-handed cap magic haste without even using dunna/idris from capped skill running /rdm haste 1 rotation and only use 1 of the bubbles in the process. This would take at least 2 marches from brd and /whm or /rdm haste rotation. At any point leftover a brd would need to use the remaining possible songs to match up to any single bubble a geo cast next. Furthermore a geo can entrust a 3rd song, putting it yet again further than brd.
A bard can haste-cap you with two songs and the spell. One song and the spell or just two songs during 2hr. If you wanted to Marcato a march (you might actually do this for Honor March), one song and the spell could do it.
Many of those situations leave a bard with 3 more songs to cast, four during Clarion Call.
Edit: Also, if a source of Haste II is availabe, Victory March gets you within 2% of spell-haste cap without Horn. HM gets you to haste cap.
You literally just summed up exactly what I said, absolutely nothing different. Futhermore the fact that brd needs to use 2hr to compete with a geo is more of a problem. Not a solution. Fully decked out brd needs 2 songs and a spell to do what 1 bubble of an idris geo can do.
Please review the potency values of geo vs brd. Brd does NOT compete in the effectiveness of buffs.
In order to have brd match up to anything a geo can do it would take numerous songs. The more songs a brd has to sing in order to equal 1 single bubble of a geo means less other buff options a brd can offer.
Even if a brd could match the potency of a bubble in 2 songs, that means the 3rd buff is still weaker than an entrust geo. Additionally brd does not get vex/attune, brd does not get magic def down, or magic atk bonus. Brd's debuffs can be resisted. a Geo can NOT be resisted.
Again, this all goes back to the same exact thing people were talking about with percentage based values. If the skill level meets the tier (i.e. smn skill and geo skill) then the potency is increased.
Brd is outdated, and rdm needs to be on the same system.
Edit: addressing haste 2, if haste 2 is an option then brd isn't solo buffing like geo is doing. That is an additional slot, this does not fix anything.
By Shiva.Shruiken 2016-11-08 16:18:58
I think they should have given all BRDs access to Honor March rather than limit it to an RMEA. Imo horn is the only Aeonic that is particularly game-changing to its job..
I don't think you should need all 4 RMEA (3 if you don't count Carn) in order for the job to even be relevant.
[+]
 Leviathan.Stamos
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1,243
By Leviathan.Stamos 2016-11-08 16:24:03
It is quite the fine line if they do buff it with suggested buffs. Stacking adjusted BRD songs with GEO buffs would make you nearly invincible(such as mevasion).
By Afania 2016-11-08 16:31:57
It is quite the fine line if they do buff it with suggested buffs. Stacking adjusted BRD songs with GEO buffs would make you nearly invincible(such as mevasion).
That's what I've been saying on OF, when SE mentioned "brd and geo roles are different" they probably don't mean BRD isn't a support job, instead they meant their buffs stack, and when geo is already that powerful making brd as powerful as geo means player will gain abilities to faceroll hardest content and lowers content difficulty even further.
I don't see an easy solution to this tbh, besides slight nerf to geo AND boost brd so playerbase are forced to use both for hard content(we already do with melee strat tbh) and make brd viable alternative to geo in lowman content.
Asura.Thorva
By Asura.Thorva 2016-11-08 16:35:31
It is quite the fine line if they do buff it with suggested buffs. Stacking adjusted BRD songs with GEO buffs would make you nearly invincible(such as mevasion).
That's what I've been saying on OF, when SE mentioned "brd and geo roles are different"
Yeah I have mentioned specialist buffs in the past, as much as I utterly hate that play style it would be the most appropriate direction to go in order to avoid getting over powered.
Siren.Bruno
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 398
By Siren.Bruno 2016-11-08 18:55:43
more realistically, it should be something along the lines of, full dispel will only dispel 1 or 2 songs. that wouldn't be as bad then, if the dispel priority of songs isn't random (for instance, if dispel prioritized last applied song per person) This scenario would make things better (for the alliance) in some situations, and much worse (for the BRD) in other situations.
Situations where it's a short fight and the BRD wouldn't reapply songs regardless ==> it's very good
Situations where it's a longer fight and BRD is supposed to mantain songs up and rotate between pts ==> gonna be even worse than it is now
Imagine some people getting 1 song dispelled, others in the same pt getting 2 songs dispelled.
Imagine having to reapply fakes, then songs, then pianissimo, then those lovely NiTro songs with higher durations which will make it so lovely for you to overwrite, etc.
I mean srsly, if they have to make it into a "chance" to get 1-2 songs dispelled, I might as well keep the current mechanics honestly :x
to be fair, i had meant change it to 1, or change it 2, not change it to 1 or 2. but regardless it still wouldn't change much.
as you said however, the only way to achieve what we want with current endgame is making BRD appealing, most especially, midfight, which isn't anything super drastic. better/more debuffs, songs that don't put it in GEO or COR's shadow(and vice versa), giving incentive to not drop the BRD from party after songs.
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 19:16:48
It would also serve well to exercise restraint when complaining about things, instead considering said complaint thoroughly. Oftentimes in ffxi this means gearing, cp-ing, and excelling ( have high tier gear for said job while participating competently and well in high-tier content on said job) in said area before divulging said complaints, especially if you have many complaints to self-prove before sharing. Even going as far in said restraint as keeping it to yourself if you are unable/unwilling to do the above - especially when you are barely introduced to the facts surrounding them due to inexperience.
An acceptable alternative that can help you grow, assuming you are open-minded, will accept advice, and have wise friends, is to only share the complaints timidly (non-dogmatically) typically just among friends, instead of publicly, in exchange for their advice. However, surrounding yourself with foolish friends will basically ruin this approach.
Rashness tied to quite-clueless nagging can only be humored for so long before people run out of patience for you and/or you ruin your good name. Excuse me?
I'm well within my rights to have an opinion.
Anyone can read spell and item descriptions on a wiki and if they've been playing this game for a decade they can determine whether or not something is too strong, especially after reading what other spells/items of other jobs do in the current state of the game.
I'd like to be told "why" my opinion is wrong, not ad hominem attacks. This allows me to learn and get smarter.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34,187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-08 20:10:55
I'm well within my rights to have an opinion. You must be new to the internet.
Everyone has a right to an opinion, as long as it matches mine exactly, otherwise you are wrong and <insert derogatory alphabet soup>
[+]
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19,647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2016-11-08 20:28:11
It would also serve well to exercise restraint when complaining about things, instead considering said complaint thoroughly. Oftentimes in ffxi this means gearing, cp-ing, and excelling ( have high tier gear for said job while participating competently and well in high-tier content on said job) in said area before divulging said complaints, especially if you have many complaints to self-prove before sharing. Even going as far in said restraint as keeping it to yourself if you are unable/unwilling to do the above - especially when you are barely introduced to the facts surrounding them due to inexperience.
An acceptable alternative that can help you grow, assuming you are open-minded, will accept advice, and have wise friends, is to only share the complaints timidly (non-dogmatically) typically just among friends, instead of publicly, in exchange for their advice. However, surrounding yourself with foolish friends will basically ruin this approach.
Rashness tied to quite-clueless nagging can only be humored for so long before people run out of patience for you and/or you ruin your good name. I'd like to be told "why" my opinion is wrong, not ad hominem attacks. This allows me to learn and get smarter.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Knowing what a spell or ability does does not give you the context on how it is or isn't used. The fact of the matter is nerfing Idris GEO would make a lot of the higher end fights so much more difficult that they'd probably need to be adjusted too. Since the flavor of the day when it comes to balance on these forums seems to be "adjust the smallest number of things possible because it's too hard for the dev team to do a lot at once ):", this is not efficient. You would know this if you'd done or even seen those fights, which is what RolandJ is alluding to.
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 20:43:26
If the game is balanced around the most overpowered item in the game, and content is not clearable without it, we have a major problem on our hands.
Also, wouldn't it be better to make the game harder, instead of easier?
This is why idris needs to be nerfed to the ground. It also lets jobs like Bard and RDM be more relevant, and since this is about fixing bard, the easiest way to fix bard is to make it so that idris geo isn't so game breakingly overpowered as a support compared to literally any other support in the game.
Why are fights being difficult a problem? Why should difficulty be nearly bypassed by a single item on a single job out of 22 jobs?
That literally screams "hey, this item might be completely broken!".
Nothing you said makes me think any differently, it just confirms what I already know: Idris is broken.
edit: Wasn't this the same argument used about embrava and PD? What happened to them? They got nerfed to the ground, and rightfully so.
 Fenrir.Ramzus
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1,387
By Fenrir.Ramzus 2016-11-08 20:50:41
you don't need idris to clear all content, it just makes it easier
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 20:53:08
you don't need idris to clear all content, it just makes it easier I'm glad people who can clear the content are coming in to say this.
This also intrigues me:
If the item isn't needed to clear the content, and simply makes it easier, why isn't the item being nerfed? Why should we be against making the game HARDER? It's not ok that a single item can single-handedly nerf an encounter, a single item, on a single job, out of 22 jobs.
That's imbalance.
Back to the point:
That makes jobs like bard less wanted, less relevant, less good. A bard, regardless of any situation, basically cannot ever HOPE to compare to the supportive powers of an idris geo. That's not good! It would make things a LOT easier(and not make the game a joke, because buffing brd to geo levels would just turn everything into embrava PD days of no fun allowed), so we nerf the very obviously outliner down to the same level as other support jobs.
This is better for the game as a whole, IMO.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19,647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2016-11-08 20:53:41
you don't need idris to clear all content, it just makes it easier
this, however for a lot (the majority of groups clearing these things at all, I'd say), "making it easier" can be the difference between victory and failure. if every player was created equally it wouldn't be an issue, but that is not the case. it's the same principle by which adding 1 extra person to an alliance and increasing a mob's HP by 1/6 can be the difference between winning and losing.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31
By Asura.Icewell 2016-11-08 20:54:59
I'd like to be told "why" my opinion is wrong, not ad hominem attacks.
I agree with you that you need more specifics, but Rolandj didn't commit an ad hominem, or to be more explicit, didn't commit an ad hominem fallacy.
An ad hominem is when someone argues that a certain character trait either supports or falsifies someone's conclusion. There's also whether or not said character traits are relevant or not. If the character traits in question are not relevant (i.e. if someone is a man or woman) then they are committing an ad hominem fallacy. However, if someone is making an argument about astronomy, and they are an astronomer, that is a relevant character trait, because they are the ones who have the most knowledge about astronomy.
If you don't know how these battle play out, then that's certainly a relevant point to bring up.
[+]
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 20:56:28
Valefor.Prothescar said: »you don't need idris to clear all content, it just makes it easier
this, however for a lot (the majority of groups clearing these things at all, I'd say), "making it easier" can be the difference between victory and failure. if every player was created equally it wouldn't be an issue, but that is not the case. it's the same principle by which adding 1 extra person to an alliance and increasing a mob's HP by 1/6 can be the difference between winning and losing. If the difference between winning or losing is a single item on a single job, in a game with 22 jobs, then something is not right, at all.
That is not how a MMO should be designed.
A single item on a single job shouldn't be able to carry people so hard by being SO OVERPOWERED.
It's not only overpowered in making the game easier, it also makes other supports less relevant and less wanted! The item needs to be nerfed, first and foremost, before we even begin to think about adjusting bard.
You start from square 1, then work your way up. Bard adjustments come in the form of nerfs to it's superior job in it's exact role. This, as I've said, reduces POWER CREEP to nearly zero, and doesn't make the game easier. An easier game isn't fun IMO.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19,647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2016-11-08 20:59:24
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's stupid how strong GEO is, but I can't agree that it's going to be beneficial for the majority of the playerbase to nerf it.
[+]
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 21:01:05
But the same was said for embrava and PD. Yet, it had to be nerfed, for the better of the game as a whole.
Fenrir.Ramzus
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1,387
By Fenrir.Ramzus 2016-11-08 21:02:41
i agree with with prothescar says. idris is insanely helpful for players that are less skilled, i don't think any groups that haven't already won master trials/aeonics etc are gonna win without idris.
also it takes 9 months and 300m gil to make so i personally think the strength of it is justified
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 21:05:36
Compare it to any other mythic or even an emp. None of them are anywhere near as strong for about the same effort.
A Aeonic + emp + relic bard is more effort and nowhere near as strong!
Everything I'm seeing is just confirming the items completely overpowered!
How can other support jobs ever hope to compete in a world where idris is this strong? They can't! It must be nerfed to help fix bard without creating OBSCENE power creep.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19,647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2016-11-08 21:07:17
There is no weapon type that takes the same level of effort as an Ergon.
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 21:09:49
Valefor.Prothescar said: »There is no weapon type that takes the same level of effort as an Ergon. How about runes ergon? It's not as game breaking as idris.
That's a silly argument anyways, if any player had the choice they'd GLADLY say yes to having the ability to make an ergon on their job to make it as overpowered as idris.
Bards would love to have an item as strong as idris if they had the choice.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19,647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2016-11-08 21:13:06
BRD has an item that's as strong as Idris, the problem they have is their songs not their equipment.
Fenrir.Ramzus
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1,387
By Fenrir.Ramzus 2016-11-08 21:13:21
RUN ergon is actually quite strong, obviously not as good as GEO but it breaks RUN to the same degree as it does GEO.
An RMEA BRD is probably easier to make than an Idris GEO, although not necessarily cheaper.
Valefor.Kiaru
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 361
By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-08 21:21:55
Valefor.Prothescar said: »BRD has an item that's as strong as Idris, the problem they have is their songs not their equipment. If you buff bard to geo's level you get power creep and an easier game.
edit:
Have to say I'm pretty satisfied and delighted I was able to have a discussion on a forum without insults/personal attacks thrown around.
I'm too used to WOW and other horrible games communities. Makes me appreciate this game a lot more.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19,647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2016-11-08 21:23:31
The game is already easy for the people that that matters for.
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6,052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2016-11-08 21:29:00
nerf idris, nerf master trial accordingly if needed
if you can't beat helm/woc without idris by now, maybe you deserve to have to try a little bit harder
[+]
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10,483
By Ramuh.Austar 2016-11-08 21:33:18
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »nerf idris, nerf master trial accordingly if needed
if you can't beat helm/woc without idris by now, maybe you deserve to have to try a little bit harder bring more pups
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34,187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-11-08 21:34:51
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »nerf idris, nerf master trial accordingly if needed
if you can't beat helm/woc without idris by now, maybe you deserve to have to try a little bit harder Don't forget to nerf BLU, and while you are at it, nerf it again!
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Commencal
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Quetzalcoatl.Commencal 2016-11-08 21:38:20
Nerfing Idris or GEO isn't going to magically increase a groups desire to include a BRD full time. They simply don't have songs to increase MAB or reduce a mobs magic defence, among similar disadvantages.
[+]
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6,052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2016-11-08 21:40:06
oh i don't care about that, i just support anything that makes content harder since there's currently no actual challenge left besides MT
[+]
This applies mostly to non-aeonic bards. R/E (I guess mythic is "optional", but if you have 99 harp, you probably have Carnwenhan).
It applies to the NQ three song bards too. They don't belong at high-tier content more than Dunna GEOs but they could use a buff so they're more relevant in more casual content.
I should say up front that I don't play Bard. I had fun pulling in Delve trash burns a {Long time} ago. I had skill cap, and a collection of instruments, but I just like getting hit, tbh.
As we all know, Bard requires Relic and Empy (should have mythic) to ever be worthwhile for anything. People have given uses to non-RME bards but this is usually more a courtesy or desperation than want for the job.
Bard does have a few mechanical strengths over GEO (it actually does have a few, like mobility, variety of buffs to different people, no dependence on mp, unique sleep).
One of Bard's (and COR's) mechanical advantages is also one of its weaknesses. Pre-fight readiness, meaning that it can and usually is (a mule) dropped before the fight is started.
Likewise, GEO has a few mechanical strengths over Bard (undispellable, easy upkeep, can help nuke/debuff in the right content). The potency and practicality of buffs are why GEO outclasses Bard.
Fury / Frailty, like COR's Chaos Roll, being percentage based should scale just fine to the end of time. While Acumen, like Wizard's roll, is a fixed bonus to Magic Attack, Malaise essentially causes your gear, acumen, and certain other buffs to scale in potency.
Bard's buffs, beyond outdated skill caps, and gear enhancements, don't naturally scale. SE must routinely find a cap that neither makes the job OP or undervalued. (kidding, they just ignore it).
I'm not asking for Bard's buffs to convert to %. Percent buffs are added together for a cumulative increase. Static buffs increase the potency of the percentage buff. The two play together nicely.
(Base + Minuet + Minuet) * (Chaos% + Fury% + Berserk%) for instance.
---
One potential fix that would have gone a long way for the job is 1200 being Honor March, but it's too late for that. The 100 could have been something comparable for mages (Spell Haste, mAtt, mAcc).
This alone would not have fixed Bard. Scaling of at least some songs needs looked at.
It adds insult to injury that Bards are required to get another weapon to be relevant.
I have no real horse in this race, I don't like playing GEO or BRD and I don't like guns and dice.
In my honest opinion, nerfing GEO is not a practical answer. It makes the ascension fights harder for people that need the help, and harder on everyone else. GEO's buffs are powerful, but the content is framed around having them, like just content was designed around having Bard prior to that.
|
|
