Jack Of All Trades: A Guide To Red Mage

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Jack of All Trades: A Guide to Red Mage
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By Afania 2019-02-21 11:09:01
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Aerix said: »
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with bringing back BRD/WHM as a full support--some people actually enjoyed playing the job that way instead of a DD. As for GEO: in fights with a lot of AoE you'd likely have to choose between keeping bubbles up or healing due to MP concerns.

/WHM Curaga III would offer RDM and SCH the chance to play as main healers for a lot of midrange content again, whereas at the moment WHM is pretty much the only option. And even with Curaga III spam, RDM would run the risk of emptying all their MP pretty quickly even with Murgleis Convert, since they don't get MP back from healing. And SCH could actually use their strats on AoE -nas instead of Accession Cures.

Regardless, in the majority of the harder endgame content people would still bring WHM over alternatives any day due to Barspells.

Nah, I main healed a lot of ambu VD on rdm just fine.

MP issue is very easy to solve with ballad x2. Brd geo will heal just fine with ballad x2 too.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-02-21 12:16:58
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Aerix said: »

Regardless, in the majority of the harder endgame content people would still bring WHM over alternatives any day due to Barspells.

And there's nothing wrong with that. I doubt anyone playing the game minds that White Mage (one of the most traditional jobs in the FF series) reign as king of main healing. But allowing RDMs and SCHs subbing WHM (which lets face it, by subjob choice they are showing they intend to primarily heal) have curaga3 means there are more options for mid-level content to be "main-healed" by someone other than WHM.

In this day of RMEA or bust for most/all jobs, there's nothing wrong with a WHM only being truly complete with a Yagrush. Not much different than comparing two Rangers, one with a Fomalhaut and one with a Holliday, and finding the former more attractive and competitive. That being said, WHMs will always remain king for emnity control while curing, tops in barspells, and strat-free AoE status cures(w/ yag), and as such...kings of healing parties for the toughest of content.

But a RDM/WHM with curaga3 could very comfortably main heal Omen runs, Ambuscade, and lower-tier Escha NMs. Not saying they can't right now, but the key word was "comfortably". If y'all are anything like me, finding dedicated WHM mains is the hardest thing in game right now. Idris GEOs and 4-song BRDs are becoming a dime a dozen compared to a true WHM. So if SE were to change a few minor things to allow others to fill that role, say 75% of the time, with 25% of content still "needing" a WHM, what's the big deal?
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-02-21 12:19:26
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Asura.Sechs said: »
"kill whm" sounds like a bit of a stretch.
Think of all the fights where Yagrush makes a huge difference, or Divine Veil, or Cureskin, or the powerful setbonus empowered Barspells, or Sacrosanctity and so on.

Some of these things are clearly niches, but some others have multiple instances that still make WHM very relevant even if other jobs were to get Curaga3.

Yeah Curaga III alone wouldn't kill WHM by a long shot, it would just make SCH and RDM viable options. RDM's Haste II for example would combine with Honor March to cap magic haste, opening up another bard song slot for a defensive song or another offensive depending. SCH's AoE Regen and Storm II's would help also help the party. None of that touche's the raw healing power WHM brings along with godly Barspells.

Curaga III just makes RDM's and SCH's able to heal melee parties decently enough to not be a waste of time. I've done this before on RDM and Curaga II just doesn't cut it, it's just not enough HP for it's time slot and people can still get whacked as a result. Alternatively I've healed many a tank party and it's piss easy taking care of one or two tanks.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-02-21 12:20:50
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The entirety of every argument you could ever come up with comes down to one sentence that encapsulates why "this thing won't be done".

You'll abuse it.

Yeah, it's as simple as that. It would be great if RDM was a better healer. It would be great if NIN was a better tank. It would be great if this happened. Or that happened.

You can't be trusted to not abuse it and therefor can't have it.

RDM CANT be a better healer, because you will NEVER use a whm again. Look no further than RUN. You wanted tank options. You got RUN. RUN completely replaced PLD, for everything. It's not a sometimes use RUN sometimes use PLD. it's 100% of the time I want a RUN, I'll settle for a PLD. It was already the case back at 75. RDM and WHM were "relatively equal" and you would NEVER chose to take a WHM if a RDM was available.
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By Afania 2019-02-21 12:35:47
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
The entirety of every argument you could ever come up with comes down to one sentence that encapsulates why "this thing won't be done".

You'll abuse it.

Yeah, it's as simple as that. It would be great if RDM was a better healer. It would be great if NIN was a better tank. It would be great if this happened. Or that happened.

You can't be trusted to not abuse it and therefor can't have it.

RDM CANT be a better healer, because you will NEVER use a whm again. Look no further than RUN. You wanted tank options. You got RUN. RUN completely replaced PLD, for everything. It's not a sometimes use RUN sometimes use PLD. it's 100% of the time I want a RUN, I'll settle for a PLD. It was already the case back at 75. RDM and WHM were "relatively equal" and you would NEVER chose to take a WHM if a RDM was available.


I already prefer rdm over whm for most things lol.

More dmg for entire pt with dia3, inundation, distract 3 and haste 2 >>>>>>>>>> less dmg.

I actually have been building shell crusher/black halo set on whm just to bring more offensive value in a pt on whm. A heal only whm isn't busy enough because many content just doesn't need that much heal. Rest of the free time should be transfer into dps for max efficiency.

If /whm gets curaga 3 I'll just make brd geo heal most of the ambu so I can fit in 1 more real DD anyways. Geo can do shell crusher I think.

Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
finding dedicated WHM mains is the hardest thing in game right now.

Whm doesn't need to be dedicated to do the job though. From my experience there are plenty of people/mule that needs point will offer whm for ambu.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-02-21 12:40:45
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while I won't totally argue with you about the playerbase abusing things, I will say this in rebuttal to the RUN vs PLD argument:

The fault that we as players have almost completely abandoned PLD is a combination of how good RUN is with the mobs that SE has designed for us. When the majority of high-end content is throwing magical and status attacks, we'd have to be idiots not to use the tank that does much better against such things. If SE gave us more high-end mobs that would multiattack physically so much that even parry/batuttua become worthless and you just have to eat it, a PLD would be preferred for that fight. Or something with an insurmountable counter rate where disengaged tanking was the only viable option, again PLD would reign supreme on this hypothetical mob.

When SE wanted to "get rid of" NIN tanking, one thing they did was introduce a helluva lot of AoE moves to wipe all shadows at once. It of course wasn't the only thing, but it was part of the strategy. Want to reduce RUN's supremacy? Make mobs that pick on RUN's weaknesses, which by their very nature play into PLD's strengths.
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By Afania 2019-02-21 12:46:53
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But parry/battuta is extremely good for dealing with multi attack too. Even if mob hits 8 times per round RUN will just parry them all.

RUN isn't bad at dealing with physical at all, epeo is 75% pdt- and parry takes no dmg for both white dmg and TP move.

RUN has no weakness. If I really need to name one it's probably be canopierce or charm (pld can resist it with fealty) in spammable content. Everything else wouldn't make pld more preferable than RUN.
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By Chimerawizard 2019-02-21 12:47:56
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When is the last time PLD got an upgrade to Aegis or Ochain?
The problem is really just that SE has ignored upgrading PLD shields for so long its causing the job to suffer.

All the rest of REMA aside from instruments are up to 119 v3 with augments already while shields aren't even iLv.
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By SimonSes 2019-02-21 12:48:59
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
while I won't totally argue with you about the playerbase abusing things, I will say this in rebuttal to the RUN vs PLD argument:

The fault that we as players have almost completely abandoned PLD is a combination of how good RUN is with the mobs that SE has designed for us. When the majority of high-end content is throwing magical and status attacks, we'd have to be idiots not to use the tank that does much better against such things. If SE gave us more high-end mobs that would multiattack physically so much that even parry/batuttua become worthless and you just have to eat it, a PLD would be preferred for that fight. Or something with an insurmountable counter rate where disengaged tanking was the only viable option, again PLD would reign supreme on this hypothetical mob.

When SE wanted to "get rid of" NIN tanking, one thing they did was introduce a helluva lot of AoE moves to wipe all shadows at once. It of course wasn't the only thing, but it was part of the strategy. Want to reduce RUN's supremacy? Make mobs that pick on RUN's weaknesses, which by their very nature play into PLD's strengths.

Im a tank noob, but how exactly RUN is weaker than PLD for "Hundred Fists" type of mobs, when afaik parry has higher rate on high lvl stuff than shield block rate and RUN has 75% PDT, while PLD has "only" 68%? Doesn't that make RUN much better at avoiding damage from wave of physical hits?
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By Afania 2019-02-21 12:51:40
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Chimerawizard said: »
When is the last time PLD got an upgrade to Aegis or Ochain?
The problem is really just that SE has ignored upgrading PLD shields for so long its causing the job to suffer.

All the rest of REMA aside from instruments are up to 119 v3 with augments already while shields aren't even iLv.


Upgrading the shield won't solve the problem. Both jobs defensive ability is well above current content requirement. Surviability is never an issue.

Pld needs certain way to enhance pt dps and aoe tank ability like foil spam. That's the only way for it to catch up.
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By eliroo 2019-02-21 13:07:46
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Isn't RUN the weakest in situations where you can't engage to tank mobs that deal physical damage?
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By Afania 2019-02-21 13:11:25
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eliroo said: »
Isn't RUN the weakest in situations where you can't engage to tank mobs that deal physical damage?


1) Which mob that really need run to tank disengaged?

2) Even if such situation exists people can still use epeo RUN and just cure bomb anyways.
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2019-02-21 13:38:43
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It’s probably already been said but RUN is a better tank because of reasons stated above but it also has a MUCH EASIER TIME HOLDING HATE than PLD due to it being able to actually harm the mob as well as spam tank stuff.

If SE wants to bring PLD back...

Upgrade Shields: give them iLV and maybe Enmity II and cool stuff

Give PLD a trait that gives it a sizable enmity boost with each shield block

Give them a trait to resist ailments better (obviously not as good as RUN)

Overhaul the Mythic WS (to my knowledge, it’s still an *** pastry?)

But like they said, we’ll abuse it lol.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-02-21 13:51:39
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Wat
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By Chimerawizard 2019-02-21 13:54:05
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Wat
You have reached the RDM guide, where we talk about PLD vs RUN & how OP WHM is.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-02-21 13:58:38
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SimonSes said: »
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
while I won't totally argue with you about the playerbase abusing things, I will say this in rebuttal to the RUN vs PLD argument:

The fault that we as players have almost completely abandoned PLD is a combination of how good RUN is with the mobs that SE has designed for us. When the majority of high-end content is throwing magical and status attacks, we'd have to be idiots not to use the tank that does much better against such things. If SE gave us more high-end mobs that would multiattack physically so much that even parry/batuttua become worthless and you just have to eat it, a PLD would be preferred for that fight. Or something with an insurmountable counter rate where disengaged tanking was the only viable option, again PLD would reign supreme on this hypothetical mob.

When SE wanted to "get rid of" NIN tanking, one thing they did was introduce a helluva lot of AoE moves to wipe all shadows at once. It of course wasn't the only thing, but it was part of the strategy. Want to reduce RUN's supremacy? Make mobs that pick on RUN's weaknesses, which by their very nature play into PLD's strengths.

Im a tank noob, but how exactly RUN is weaker than PLD for "Hundred Fists" type of mobs, when afaik parry has higher rate on high lvl stuff than shield block rate and RUN has 75% PDT, while PLD has "only" 68%? Doesn't that make RUN much better at avoiding damage from wave of physical hits?

Not to mention with Turms mittens it heals you rather than damaging you.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-02-21 13:59:48
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Afania said: »
eliroo said: »
Isn't RUN the weakest in situations where you can't engage to tank mobs that deal physical damage?


1) Which mob that really need run to tank disengaged?

2) Even if such situation exists people can still use epeo RUN and just cure bomb anyways.

pretty much just Erynis, but with Epeo it's hardly a threat even with no parries.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-02-21 14:01:35
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Anyway, back on the topic of RDM, I really don't think it will need much more adjustment if they can just tweak some of the spells to be a bit more useful. It's already pretty good now, the main thing for me is Frazzle being a bit of a joke, since it's not inherently more accurate than other spells, you tend to land it when you could have already landed everything else even without it.

That seems like a pretty clear design flaw.
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By eliroo 2019-02-21 14:03:50
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I couldn't really think of any specific example, but its the only defined weakness I could really think of. Or rather, the only time a Paladin would be slightly better.

Paladin will need a bit more than upgraded shields. As others have said they need a way to increase party damage, maybe more physical oriented? And then maybe a slightly better method of maintaining AoE threat.
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By SimonSes 2019-02-21 14:06:33
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Asura.Byrne said: »
Anyway, back on the topic of RDM, I really don't think it will need much more adjustment if they can just tweak some of the spells to be a bit more useful. It's already pretty good now, the main thing for me is Frazzle being a bit of a joke, since it's not inherently more accurate than other spells, you tend to land it when you could have already landed everything else even without it.

That seems like a pretty clear design flaw.

Eeee... i always tho this spell was mostly to help others to land their stuff, not enable rdm landing his enfeebling magic.

Edit: and to let RDM land unresisted elemental magic and en spell too ofc.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-02-21 14:09:08
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SimonSes said: »
Asura.Byrne said: »
Anyway, back on the topic of RDM, I really don't think it will need much more adjustment if they can just tweak some of the spells to be a bit more useful. It's already pretty good now, the main thing for me is Frazzle being a bit of a joke, since it's not inherently more accurate than other spells, you tend to land it when you could have already landed everything else even without it.

That seems like a pretty clear design flaw.

Eeee... i always tho this spell was mostly to help others to land their stuff, not enable rdm landing his enfeebling magic.

Even if you thought that was the "Design direction" or what ever, Elemental Seal is still a thing, so people still use it this way regardless. As was mentioned before the JA's were updated, it would be nice to not be forced to use /BLM because you just have to.
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By SimonSes 2019-02-21 14:17:01
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I think you oversimplifing it. Frazzle is for mages like madrigal for melee. When its on, BLMs can use less macc and more damage for example. What Frazzle and rdm need is more enemies that require magic damage to kill and meva debuffs/macc buffs to land *** (limit geo buffs and debuffs similar to dynamisD)
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-02-21 15:36:27
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SimonSes said: »
I think you oversimplifing it. Frazzle is for mages like madrigal for melee. When its on, BLMs can use less macc and more damage for example. What Frazzle and rdm need is more enemies that require magic damage to kill and meva debuffs/macc buffs to land *** (limit geo buffs and debuffs similar to dynamisD)

It's simply not necessary for that though. Typically if you can't land spells with reliable damage, the chances are you either can't land frazzle on them either, or the frazzle would make little difference if any. I would say it's you who is oversimplifying this issue.

In the cases where you are getting resisted about 40%~50% of the time, actually landing frazzle 3 with potency gear on often changes the dynamic to where you aren't getting resisted at all anymore for enfeebling magic aside from complete immunity or freakishly high elemental alignment causing the resist.

And again, the issue here wasn't that "frazzle isn't accurate enough", it's that Frazzle is Darkness based, playing back into said freakishly high elemental alignment present with a high percentage of high level targets. Like even with perfect gear, landing Frazzle on darkness-based NMs is a crapshoot, and in those cases since almost all important debuffs are aligned with darkness with the exception of dia, which can't be resisted, and Addle. It means that unlike BRD and COR who's buffs bolster the party rather than trying to debuff the mob, or GEO, who's debuffs can't be resisted. RDM on the other hand has a dice roll to be completely useless on certain NMs depending on element.

The fact that you confuse madrigal, which is a buff, with Frazzle, which is a debuff subject to being resisted, demonstrates that you are not looking at this objectively.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-02-21 16:18:00
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Asura.Byrne said: »
So missing 30ish~50.macc from just not having R15 mythic, then feet you aren't counting the MND into how much of an improvement they are, The Chironic hose can have 40 m.acc AND 10 MND, body and head can obviously be +3, and that Kaja Bow makes a 20 m.acc difference by itself. Then there's the NQ neck vs HQ2 to consider. This makes you 50 short of BIS how?

Don't get me wrong, your gear isn't bad, but it's also not what I was saying. If you're using a stewpot with that gear and still can't land Distract in accuracy gear, I'd double check your lua to make sure you don't have some funny business going on.

My comment was in response to someone saying it's virtually impossible to land debuffs at all in Wave 3 regardless of gear, which simply isn't true.

You make good point. I don’t know why, but I didn’t realize the macc gap between r15 murgleis and grio was so huge.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-02-21 20:12:36
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Asura.Byrne said: »
So missing 30ish~50.macc from just not having R15 mythic, then feet you aren't counting the MND into how much of an improvement they are, The Chironic hose can have 40 m.acc AND 10 MND, body and head can obviously be +3, and that Kaja Bow makes a 20 m.acc difference by itself. Then there's the NQ neck vs HQ2 to consider. This makes you 50 short of BIS how?

Don't get me wrong, your gear isn't bad, but it's also not what I was saying. If you're using a stewpot with that gear and still can't land Distract in accuracy gear, I'd double check your lua to make sure you don't have some funny business going on.

My comment was in response to someone saying it's virtually impossible to land debuffs at all in Wave 3 regardless of gear, which simply isn't true.

You make good point. I don’t know why, but I didn’t realize the macc gap between r15 murgleis and grio was so huge.

In fairness with stewpot and using Saboteur off cooldown, and ES on volte particularly resistant stuff, the gear you have should be good enough, especially on the Wave 3 Megaboss.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-02-22 01:44:47
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Wave3 megabosses have like zero resistance to debuffs once you kill all fetters.

To give you an idea I was landing debuffs 100% on my BRD/WHM, yes, not even joking lol.


It's a different story with the Wave3 minibosses I suppose though. Those can be nasty.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-02-22 01:58:21
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Right, I'm not sure if all players are aware of that though. I was trying to reassure and ended up coming across as ignorant instead. Happens, I suppose.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-02-22 04:03:02
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Uuuh, sorry, I had no bad intentions at all ><
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2019-02-22 06:03:24
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Asura.Byrne said: »
So missing 30ish~50.macc from just not having R15 mythic, then feet you aren't counting the MND into how much of an improvement they are, The Chironic hose can have 40 m.acc AND 10 MND, body and head can obviously be +3, and that Kaja Bow makes a 20 m.acc difference by itself. Then there's the NQ neck vs HQ2 to consider. This makes you 50 short of BIS how?

Don't get me wrong, your gear isn't bad, but it's also not what I was saying. If you're using a stewpot with that gear and still can't land Distract in accuracy gear, I'd double check your lua to make sure you don't have some funny business going on.

My comment was in response to someone saying it's virtually impossible to land debuffs at all in Wave 3 regardless of gear, which simply isn't true.

You make good point. I don’t know why, but I didn’t realize the macc gap between r15 murgleis and grio was so huge.


It's that and Distract comes from black magic. If you're going gainMND for potency, you are giving up macc by not going gainINT. It's the same with pick kayk gloves over jhakri.

Id rather land the spell the first time over fiddling for the last 10 eva down.

____
Also hard pass on curaga 3. Don't take WHM jobs, they need job security or we will have even fewer competent WHMs.

You want to give us access to Cura 3 and Misery on /whm so we can help WHMs in bad AoE situations that's fine. But i dont want on command Curaga with no strings attached being on anyone but WHM.
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-02-22 06:38:00
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Phoenix.Iocus said: »
It's that and Distract comes from black magic. If you're going gainMND for potency, you are giving up macc by not going gainINT. It's the same with pick kayk gloves over jhakri.

That's not how it works anymore.

Distract III and Frazzle III both use MND as it's accuracy and potency source. Most of our enfeebles are now MND based.
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