忍術使い: The Secret Art Of Ninjutsu Technique

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忍術使い: The Secret Art of Ninjutsu Technique
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By Bahadir 2016-10-02 08:33:58
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To clear all possible misconceptions about how Ninjutsu works and test again what we thought we knew I ran some extensive tests about Ninjutsu and wanted to share the results.I will put proofs for the results in the 2nd part so if you r not interested in the numbers just check out the first part here.

Ninjutsu dmg Formula:
DMG = BaseDmg * SDT * Resist * MB * MBB * Day * Weather * MAB/MDB * TMDA * NinjutsuBonus * Innin * Futae * MH(+1)

After each multiplication the result is somehow floored. Its not quite clear to me how this is done. This results in numbers
which might be off -/+ the number of multiplications but in general the formula is accurate. I ignored affinity and staffs.

Most terms are explained here (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Magic_Damage ). Ill explain/give numbers for the others in the following:

Tiered V-values Tiered M-values NinjutsuBonus
Ichi V0-79=28, V80=67 M0-79=0.5, M80=0 1 <= 1 + (Ninjutsu Skill - 50)*0.5/100 <= 1.98 (Skill cap 246)
Ni V0-112=69, V113=182 M0-112=1, M113=0.5 1 <= 1 + (Ninjutsu Skill - 125)*0.5/100 <= 2.12 (Skill cap 349)
San V=134 M=1.5 1 <= 1 + (Ninjutsu Skill - 275)*0.5/100 <= ? (Skill cap ?)


Innin provides a 30% dmg bonus, i.e. the multiplier is 1.3 right at the start. However, it decays in 1% steps (5 ticks/step) to a final value of 10%, i.e. 1.1. The 'ticks' in the game are synched. That means that your regen and your refresh will always 'tick' at the same time. This applies for Innin as well. The very first tick after activation will decrease its value by the first 1%, thus its hard to actually get 30%. Most likely your first nuke will be 29%. Furthermore, the bonus only activates if you are behind the monster.

Futae boosts the dmg by 50%, i.e. the multiplier is 1.5. The reforged empy hands hattori tekko(+1) increase the multiplier to 1.72/1.74 respectively. They need to be in the mid-cast gear set! Wearing at activation is not enough. Furthmore, the Elemental Ninjutsu bonus on the gloves is translated to MAB and not a separate multiplier.

mochizuki hatsuburi
(+1) yields yet another separate multiplier, however, for San spells only. It is 1+0.05*Merit_Level. So a 5/5 San spell yields 1.25. The Ninjutsu Damage+15 on the head is translated to MAB not mDmg so the head gives 30 MAB in total.

Merit Category 1 says magic damage in the english version, however, it is actually MAB.

Merit Category 2 is 5 MAB per merit, including the first one. So 1/5 does give 5 MAB, 5/5 gives 25 MAB.

Last but not least, the mDmg stats of weapons in the off-hand is considered. That makes malevolence a very good choice for nuking.

Open questions:

Experiments/Sources:

Please let me know if you find any mistakes or have comments.

EDIT: Here is an updated Ninjutsu magic dmg calculation sheet.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxLbA6DbeOriaXRiUnVRa3Zld3M/view?usp=sharing
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By Verda 2016-10-02 08:52:57
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/clap awesome work Bahadir
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 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2016-10-02 09:37:38
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Great work. Can this be stickied?
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By Ackeron 2016-10-02 10:20:13
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Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
Great work. Can this be stickied?
Done.
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By Bahadir 2016-10-07 08:29:17
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Just a small bump to let ppl know that I added an updated sheet. I only gave it a quick glance but as it was a question before: I couldnt find any way to beat relic head reforged for San spells. Even Ryuo HQ path A and Herc head with good augs wont beat it if you factor in other gear (i.e. you have some decent amount of MAB). The only thing is MAcc. Gap to herc is actually smaller than Ryuo so might be more realistic to use Herc instead of relic just to get that extra MAcc.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2016-11-07 10:41:08
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Bahadir said: »
Just a small bump to let ppl know that I added an updated sheet. I only gave it a quick glance but as it was a question before: I couldnt find any way to beat relic head reforged for San spells. Even Ryuo HQ path A and Herc head with good augs wont beat it if you factor in other gear (i.e. you have some decent amount of MAB). The only thing is MAcc. Gap to herc is actually smaller than Ryuo so might be more realistic to use Herc instead of relic just to get that extra MAcc.


Or for Magic Burst Bonus if that's where your magic dmg is coming from.

Edit: Bahadir were you able to get master title to test further? Is there anyway I or anyone else interested can help solve some of these questions?
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By Bahadir 2016-11-07 13:29:02
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Thank you very much for offering help :)

Unfortunately I focused mosty on my Kannagi rather than CP. Still stuck at around 1200 JP. So my problem is that I cannot reach maximum possible Ninjutsu skill to test whether San spells have a cap.

Not sure if tryn for maximum skill is such a good idea even if uncapped but would be intersting to know. If a master Nin with stikini rings (HQ), ninjtsu earring, Ryou head (HQ), Magic Torque from Escha Sky and Ninjutsu Belt could test it would be nice (did I forget something?).

For the elemental resistance thing Id just need to find some1 who is willing to sacrifice 10min of their time but couldnt so far :/ Shouted a couple of times but no success. But any 2 ppl could try that in Brenner for example. Go in, test effect of Ichi, Ni, San of an element and "spinn the wheel" to see if the effects overwrite each other or stack.

About the MAcc questions......well tbh I could ve tested it but was too lazy so far ^^, would require a large sample to draw conclusions and that would require a lot of time. I like Nin nuking so I might eventually test it but was just too lazy so far ^^, But feel free to help with that :D
Planed to do 2 things: find a mob where you have a decent resist rate but not floored magic hit rate while being naked. Then stack up on Int gear and see if something changes.
Same for Ninjutsu. Here its harder though cause there is not so much gear. Instead Id remove all my Ninjutsu merits and then test again with merits reapplied.

Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Or for Magic Burst Bonus if that's where your magic dmg is coming from.
Last but not least: For Ni spells I agree that Ryou and Herc are better. For San spells, however, I dont think anything will ever beat relic head. 30MB + a flat 1.25 factor... Thats just too hard to beat. Even a 40 MAB and 10 MBB Herc (or what ever is cap with Dark Matter) cannot beat that cause of the sick 1.25 separate multiplier. That is for a 5/5 merited San spell of course. 1/5 might be different.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2016-11-07 13:50:24
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Bahadir said: »
That is for a 5/5 merited San spell of course. 1/5 might be different.

This is what I'm feeling as well. With sange taking my tier two merits, 5/5 isn't realistic for my style.

I certainly don't own the HQ rings etc. But getting someone to test the elemental resistance shouldn't be too difficult... I'll see what I can muster. It sure beats doing it to those clionids or w/e they are. (Don't forget Ochus will net you some Ninjutsu Skill also~)
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By Bahadir 2016-11-08 06:01:37
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I really dislike that our best nuking option is gated behind merits.... I personally dont use Sange so I have spares for one San spell but still its only one. And the recast is too high to be reliable. Ni nukes are okish but feel like unless your MB set is very good its not worth casting.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-11-08 07:34:29
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Merits are so plentiful that you can just change them for whatever you need prior to doing it. I do that all the time on PUP.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2016-11-08 08:50:11
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I think it's more the fact that you cannot fully round out your tier 3 nuking options due to being a hard limit on tier 2 merits.

Looking at the restriction lead me to only go for thunder and ice. Giving me two sides to the light/dark bursting option and lowering resistance to things like Slow (from Raiton).

Kinda pigeon holes you into using the san's less often which lines up with MB'ing in my play style.
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By Asura.Azagarth 2016-11-08 15:53:26
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Bahadir said: »
I really dislike that our best nuking option is gated behind merits.... I personally dont use Sange so I have spares for one San spell but still its only one. And the recast is too high to be reliable. Ni nukes are okish but feel like unless your MB set is very good its not worth casting.

if your not meriting sange, how are you only getting 1? please tell me you didnt merit tools expertise.... thats just a 100% waste of potential, tools are basically free in todays economy.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-11-09 03:28:56
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Asura.Azagarth said: »
Bahadir said: »
I really dislike that our best nuking option is gated behind merits.... I personally dont use Sange so I have spares for one San spell but still its only one. And the recast is too high to be reliable. Ni nukes are okish but feel like unless your MB set is very good its not worth casting.

if your not meriting sange, how are you only getting 1? please tell me you didnt merit tools expertise.... thats just a 100% waste of potential, tools are basically free in todays economy.
I've been biased in favor of NTE since like forever but I kinda have to agree with Azagarth on this...
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By Leviathan.Komachii 2016-11-09 04:04:06
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well... it's 25 macc with relic hands... if it procs and enfeebling relevant... >.<
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By Bahadir 2016-11-09 04:47:58
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Yea I still have NTE ^^, but I have to agree that 2 San nukes, one for light and one for dark make more sense. Its just that I didnt have a viable MAB set for long now and before I didnt Need San nukes anyways. I tried Sange but it just makes me throw my TP shuriken eventually -_- So I decided against it ^^,
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By Asura.Azagarth 2016-11-09 11:15:07
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Ya Sange is "probably" best avg dps increase from our merits, BUT i always mess up and throw ***i shouldnt so..... nukes is 2nd best dps increase and worth having.

Leviathan.Komachii said: »
well... it's 25 macc with relic hands... if it procs and enfeebling relevant... >.<

many gloves will be more than 25 macc, I have a pair with 44 macc for example, and thats not even as high as you can go.

I went ice/thunder since I can then alternate light/dark solo sc on stuff when solo and ALWAYS burst a sans nuke, really was nice to see the dmg increases like that while soloing apex. 2 sc rounds and you can normaly get the mob close to dead.
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By Valefor.Kiaru 2016-11-11 01:52:34
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WRong thread
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By Lakshmi.Kingofbastok 2016-11-11 06:57:43
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I did some testing on Ninjutsu dmg a few months ago for my own personal use and I also looked at the Ninjutsu page on BG Wiki (as well as the source testing by Byrth on the BG Forums) and both his data and mine had the Ninjutsu Skill Bonus on Ichi spells at 2 (which capped out at 250 skill) and the max dInt = 76 (Max V = 66 at 76 dInt). I tried the numbers out in the OP and they worked for when I had the max Ninjutsu Skill Bonus & dInt, but when I added a weapon and ammo with mdmg & mab (used a Vampirism and Ghastly Tathlum +1), I couldn't get your numbers to work.

My numbers were dInt = 76, mdmg = 119, mab = 36 (I had 1 merit in all the category 1 merits for nukes), V = 28 and NB = 2 (Ninjutsu Bonus), so the formula would be {[(.5 x 76) + 28 + 119] x 2} x 1.36 = 503.2 before the last flooring and the damage I actually got was 503. If I used dInt = 79 and NB = 1.98, I would get {[(.5 x 79) + 28 + 119] x 1.98} x 1.36 = 500.48 before the last flooring. I couldn't change my dInt because I was testing on Huge Hornets in South Gustaberg (I used T1 or T2 nukes to determine that the bees had 6 Int).

Also for flooring and the order of the formula, I have the formula as {[(M x dInt) + V + mdmg] x NB} x (1 + mab) and flooring happens after every step that you multiply. I didn't test day/weather bonuses, Innin, or Futae, so I don't know where those come into play in the formula. For Relic head, the San Bonus is applied after the Ninjutsu Bonus, but before MAB. I tried different orders with flooring after each step, but I couldn't get some numbers to work out, but they always worked with the order I did end up using.

For San spells, I didn't find that 1/5 San Spells had any MAB. I was going to try out your numbers, but I didn't know what your Ninjutsu skill was at. For me, with 433 Ninjutsu skill (NB = 1.79), 99 Int (93 dInt), and 2 mab, I did 497 dmg and the formula was {[(1.5 x 93) + 134] x 1.79} x 1.02 = 497.76 before the final flooring. Adding in Ghastly Tathlum +1 (+11 mdmg and +4 Int unity bonus), I did 529 dmg and got 529.38 dmg from formula before final flooring. Adding in a Vampirism with no Int aug (had Ghastly Tathlum +1 equipped as well), I had +119 mdmg, +36 mab, and 103 Int (97 dInt) and I did 968 dmg and got 968.32 dmg from formula before final flooring.

edit: I forgot to do this, but you could test the Ichi dInt cap by subbing Nin on a job with capped dInt and no mab. If dmg is 66 then dInt caps at 76.
edit 2: I had Ghastly Stone +1, when I meant Ghastly Tathlum +1.
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By Bahadir 2017-01-11 07:43:19
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Srry for the necro but I think I totally missed the last post here before! Did any test the numbers which were different? Thx a lot for the testing, especially for the flooring of the numbers. Ill incorporate that info into the op later and retest the ichi values.
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-03-02 18:24:27
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So I got a capped Ochu today after over a yr off and on SR (been wanting to test it forever). My weapons of choice was ochu/ochu(no nuke stats, lol augs), and kikAG/ochu. I would sc darkness + mb 3x double per mob (would be dead by then). Heres a small sample set, but enough to give you an idea and was so consistent I stopped testing. Its just too apparent whats going on. I left out repeating numbers and there was a lot. These are the 4 most common set of numbers:

ochu/ochu san
22855
22488
22611
23074
22219

ochu/ochu Ni
15551
15346
15358
15581
15155

kik/ochu San
22453
22187
22264
22651
21913

kik/ochu Ni
16209
16026
16001
16200
15820

about 660~ dmg increase on ni nukes going from ochu/ochu to Kik/ochu, and -350~ dmg going from ochu/ochu to Kik/Ochu on sans. This is both not surprising, and quite sad in my book. I am happy that the relics do so well with the added magic dmg and sad that Ochu with is stat storm doesnt do to much more.

So what does this mean Nins? Well ochu/ochu for katanas does produce the largest numbers in MB for sans and loses by a lot on Ni nukes. If your like me you get a san and ni off per MB, so that means OVERALL at least solo, that AG/Ochu will do more dps since ni nuke will double the difference of the san.

Obviously your results will change based on your gear, so go test yourself. For now I think its quite a shock how much magic dmg adds to ni nukes, but it makes sense too since black mage T1 spells are impacted greatly too this way. This leads me to believe a perfect Ni nuking set will drastically look different from that of san.
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-03-29 04:52:31
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Was the exact (or at least approximate) value of INT for NIN nukes ever found out?
How much does it contribute to damage? How much, if at all, does it contribute to accuracy (resist rate)?

I got 10 dyes ready to be spent on my NIN nuking cape and I'm wondering between these 3 options

1) +10 INT - if INT really contributes to damage and macc of nukes, it might be my choice
2) +10 Macc - would reduce nuke resist rate, would help on sticking debuff ninjutsu as well
3) +10 Mdmg - would offer a pretty small, fixed, damage boost to NIN nukes

Kinda ruling out 3 because I'm afraid it would be mostly irrelevant, 2) sounds a good alternative if it comes out that INT offers a marginal (if at all) contribution to elemental ninjutsu
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By Bahadir 2017-03-29 05:17:02
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Kingofbastok showed that one of my V numbers might ve been off a bit. Still need to check that >.< sorry
but in general the OP provides all M and V values for Ichi, Ni and San nukes. Only exception would be checking if there actually is a cap for Ninjutsu Skill bonus on San nukes which I couldnt check as I cannot reach maximum possible Ninjutsu skill. But as it would be unreasonable to nuke in that kind of gear and I got reasonably close Id say its save to calculate with San not having a reachable cap for now.

As for your cape:
The M numbers in the OP seem to be correct (at least no1 complained) so for Ni nukes 10 Mdmg > 10 Int as M drops to 0.5 at some point.
For San nukes M is a constant 1.5 so Int > mDmg.

I couldnt test yet whether Int does have an effect on MAcc. I personally would prob go with MAcc as thats what I have most problem with when using Ninjutsu.

EDIT:
just as a reminder: M numer = multiplier for dInt term to determine base dmg of a nuke.
D = MDmg + V + (dInt * M)
So M >= 1 means Int > MDmg
M < 1 means Int < MDmg
if raw max dmg is your main concern
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-03-29 05:42:32
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Bahadir said: »
I personally would prob go with MAcc as thats what I have most problem with when using Ninjutsu.
That's quite a safe bet, most of the issues from "low damage" on Ninjutsu nukes come from lack of macc.

Said in other terms those 3 options can be seen as:
1) INT > a bit of damage, a bit of macc
2) Macc
3) Mdmg (works bit worse than 1) for San)

So it kinda depends wether or not INT does convert to macc or not, but when in doubt yeah, going 2) is a safe bet and an inventory saver.
I'll go with 2)! Thanks :D
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