Clear Up Misinformation About Luopan And Hate

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Clear up misinformation about luopan and hate
 Fenrir.Zenion
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By Fenrir.Zenion 2021-06-27 15:26:30
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So, I've noticed a weird problem that kinda relates to this thread, I'mma go ahead and just ask here instead of doing a whole new one.

I've been doing an aoe cleave setup where mobs are stunlocked and damaged by one caster. So, every mob is getting hit. They're all taking damage, they're all getting disabled.

But then I cast cure on that caster to get onto hatelist, and geo-malaise will apply to MOST of them... but there are always a few that just don't play along.

Again, those mobs aren't getting pulled in later, they're being hit just the same as all the others - if they weren't, it'd be a wipe. But they just don't respond to healer hate until a few of the other ones die off.

So, is there a cap on how many mobs can hatelist you on a single cure? Is there some other method that I should be using instead? I'm thinking next time I'll just do something like sub scholar and manifestation aspir the lot and see if that does the trick, but I'd love to hear a more sensible solution.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2021-06-27 15:33:12
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Fenrir.Zenion said: »
So, I've noticed a weird problem that kinda relates to this thread, I'mma go ahead and just ask here instead of doing a whole new one.

I've been doing an aoe cleave setup where mobs are stunlocked and damaged by one caster. So, every mob is getting hit. They're all taking damage, they're all getting disabled.

But then I cast cure on that caster to get onto hatelist, and geo-malaise will apply to MOST of them... but there are always a few that just don't play along.

Again, those mobs aren't getting pulled in later, they're being hit just the same as all the others - if they weren't, it'd be a wipe. But they just don't respond to healer hate until a few of the other ones die off.

So, is there a cap on how many mobs can hatelist you on a single cure? Is there some other method that I should be using instead? I'm thinking next time I'll just do something like sub scholar and manifestation aspir the lot and see if that does the trick, but I'd love to hear a more sensible solution.
Short answer, Yes. At most 15 mobs can be added to the hate list in a single action

EDIT: I should have read the question a bit more carefully. There's not a limit to how many mobs you can get on the hate list for by curing someone. But the person you are tagging isn't on the hate list for all mobs, because they can only get on the list for 15 mobs in the horde by AoE'ing. And subsequent casts will just add them to the same mobs again since it's determined by mob ID.

Long answer here.
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 Asura.Aeonova
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By Asura.Aeonova 2021-06-27 15:47:53
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 Fenrir.Zenion
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By Fenrir.Zenion 2021-06-27 15:52:15
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Long answer here.

That is interesting, and good to know. Also explains why just trying to hit different targets with the aoe didn't resolve the problem.

I suspect this also means that the manifestation aspir solution won't actually be one, so that sucks. This is going to take some science.

Maybe having the puller log out, then resting near the mobs...? That would be awfully inconvenient, but it should make them all aggro even if they're not able to act on it.

Actually... just tagging the puller is probably the right answer here, isn't it. Not sure why that wasn't my very first instinct, but if they're running out and getting aggro, that's them on everything's hatelist, which then means a cure should put the caster on those lists as well, bypassing the swarm cap. In theory, anyway.
 
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 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-06-27 16:11:17
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Fenrir.Zenion said: »
Actually... just tagging the puller is probably the right answer here, isn't it. Not sure why that wasn't my very first instinct, but if they're running out and getting aggro, that's them on everything's hatelist, which then means a cure should put the caster on those lists as well, bypassing the swarm cap. In theory, anyway.

This won't work either. Curing someone who has aggroed, but not acted to generate hate, does not generate hate for the curer.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2021-06-27 16:20:53
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Fenrir.Zenion said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Long answer here.

That is interesting, and good to know. Also explains why just trying to hit different targets with the aoe didn't resolve the problem.

I suspect this also means that the manifestation aspir solution won't actually be one, so that sucks. This is going to take some science.

Maybe having the puller log out, then resting near the mobs...? That would be awfully inconvenient, but it should make them all aggro even if they're not able to act on it.

Actually... just tagging the puller is probably the right answer here, isn't it. Not sure why that wasn't my very first instinct, but if they're running out and getting aggro, that's them on everything's hatelist, which then means a cure should put the caster on those lists as well, bypassing the swarm cap. In theory, anyway.
Agro'ing mobs doesn't put you on the hatelist. It's just agro. Which is why super tanking is even a thing. So tagging someone who only agro'd the mobs will do exactly nothing.

Using any sort of AoE will just put you on the hatelist for the same set of mobs as the puller, once they've used an AoE to tag. So you'd end up with 15 mobs that Malaise worked on, then they rest that it didn't.

Note that the direct target of an action, AoE or not is always added to the hate list. So adding the mobs one at a time is a possibility. But an extremely tedious and time consuming one. And trying to tag only the ones that your AoE didn't get is also difficult, even using addongs to make the IDs visible. (You'd need to map out all the IDs in the pull so you know what the full range is, then manaully tag everything lower than 15 from the highest.)

Resting is an interesting idea. Though I'm not entirely certain if it would work. It's also potentially quite time consuming. When while resting do you get hate? On each tick? or some other cycle? If per tick, then it takes a full 20 seconds of resting to get the first tick. And does it actually add you to the hate list, or just switch agro for any untagged mobs? Something to test perhaps.

Another possible method is using a smaller player centered AoE(Like some Blue magic spells) to hit different sets of mobs, causing you to tag different mobs within the overall group. This is also time consuming, and requires the mobs to be somewhat spread out and to stay put. But it is a method that could allow you to tag everything in a large set of mobs.

In other options you could limit pulls to 15 mobs at a time, or focus GEO stuff on BoG+EA acumen, rather than malaise(not nearly as effective, I know.)
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 Fenrir.Zenion
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By Fenrir.Zenion 2021-06-27 17:00:23
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Resting is an interesting idea. Though I'm not entirely certain if it would work. It's also potentially quite time consuming. When while resting do you get hate? On each tick? or some other cycle? If per tick, then it takes a full 20 seconds of resting to get the first tick. And does it actually add you to the hate list, or just switch agro for any untagged mobs? Something to test perhaps.

I was going to say I know this one, but I'm not so sure now. Turning the summoner burn days, we would have one supertank stand by the samp and rest, and pullers would bring the mobs to them; the mobs would just snap onto the tank as soon as the puller was out of the picture. Problem is, I realized while typing that those mobs didn't aggro the puller, they were links, so... I dunno. This feels like a very needs-more-science question.

Smart way to do it, relying on blue mages, might be to have one primary damage-dealer and one "greeter" who tags the mobs, 15 at a time, with subduction, then leads them back to camp for the killer. Cure the greeter, join the hatelists, get malaise.

EDIT: Actually, the resting idea wouldn't work. Can't work. It would basically just be getting aggroed by the mobs - which doesn't interact with the hatelist, that's the whole problem with curing the puller. Geomancer might get their face eaten, but the luopan would just float there glowing impotently.
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By Vaerix 2021-06-27 17:50:21
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Best idea I could think of is doing like a pld pull using diaga while pulling, tagging different mobs with 1 action (obv if sleeping or pretrifying use banishga), once you hit 15 the problem is the main caster is not on every hate list which is impossible to do with 1 spell, obviously you need mobs tagged separately by a different person (pld with banishga) then when everything is at the camp, the main caster sleeps/whatever you're doing, then geo casts cure on the pld, the geo is now on everything's hate list because all of them have the pld on their hate list from different actions.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2021-06-27 21:40:35
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Fenrir.Zenion said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Resting is an interesting idea. Though I'm not entirely certain if it would work. It's also potentially quite time consuming. When while resting do you get hate? On each tick? or some other cycle? If per tick, then it takes a full 20 seconds of resting to get the first tick. And does it actually add you to the hate list, or just switch agro for any untagged mobs? Something to test perhaps.

I was going to say I know this one, but I'm not so sure now. Turning the summoner burn days, we would have one supertank stand by the samp and rest, and pullers would bring the mobs to them; the mobs would just snap onto the tank as soon as the puller was out of the picture. Problem is, I realized while typing that those mobs didn't aggro the puller, they were links, so... I dunno. This feels like a very needs-more-science question.

Smart way to do it, relying on blue mages, might be to have one primary damage-dealer and one "greeter" who tags the mobs, 15 at a time, with subduction, then leads them back to camp for the killer. Cure the greeter, join the hatelists, get malaise.

EDIT: Actually, the resting idea wouldn't work. Can't work. It would basically just be getting aggroed by the mobs - which doesn't interact with the hatelist, that's the whole problem with curing the puller. Geomancer might get their face eaten, but the luopan would just float there glowing impotently.
Strictly speaking, agro counts for geomancy. You can apply geo effects to mobs that have only agro'd you. The only problem there is that as soon as someone else acts on them and claims them, your effects would stop and you are neither aggro'd nor on the hatelist anymore.

Regarding the resting thing... I did a few quick tests, and I can't get resting to do well, anything.

Test #1. Can aggro/hate be pulled on aggro'd mobs by resting?

Pulled two mobs on Martel via agro'ing them. No actions taken. Went over and rested next to the mobs on my GEO mule(Ard)...

No changes of any sort for multiple minutes of resting. Do not appear to be able to shift agro'd mobs to self via resting. Cast indi-poison on mule and rested some more just to see if it would take effect. Did not.

Test #2. Can you get on the hatelist for a party member's tagged mobs by resting?

Tagged the two mobs with Banishga on Martel. 240 dmg. Rested next to the with indi-poison up on Ard. If it put him on the hatelist at all, their HP should start dropping slowly.

No changes at all. Mobs never shifted target, and HP didn't change at all. So no.

Test #3. Is any measurable enmity generated by resting at all?

On the same pull of mobs, I had Ard tag Martel with a protect(0CE action), then rested for several minutes. No change.

Dropped martel's defenses and took damage until I was fairly confident he had no CE at all left. Cast an indi spell on Ard and it pulled hate and kept it. Not sure what the CE on geomancy spells are actually, but they're probably either 0 or 1 CE.

Basically, resting was generating no visible enmity at all even after the resting player was on the hate list.

Did SE nerf/remove this effect? This wasn't a perfect test, but if there's any enmity generation at all from this it'd have to be virtually nothing.

In any case, it doesn't appear that we can make use of resting as a way to place a GEO on the hate list for mass pulls.
 Fenrir.Zenion
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By Fenrir.Zenion 2021-06-27 22:50:59
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Basically, resting was generating no visible enmity at all even after the resting player was on the hate list.

Did SE nerf/remove this effect? This wasn't a perfect test, but if there's any enmity generation at all from this it'd have to be virtually nothing.

In any case, it doesn't appear that we can make use of resting as a way to place a GEO on the hate list for mass pulls.

I just ran a test using poison leeches in Buburimu; I had my geomancer resting at the top of the ramp leading down to their beach, with indi-poison up. My black mage pulled one leech with drain, then ran around linking the others. On running up the ramp, the leeches immediately started taking damage, and some began attacking the geo even before the blm warped out.

I'd also pulled a single snipper with aspir, and that began targeting the geo, but only after the warp.

What I'm getting from this is that the rest tactic still works, but only on links or when the mob has gone neutral.
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By Rips 2021-06-28 01:43:22
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Did anyone else name their Luopan? My Luopan is Louie.

My 2 cents for the thread.
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 Lakshmi.Cesil
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By Lakshmi.Cesil 2022-02-01 06:36:03
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Rips said: »
Did anyone else name their Luopan? My Luopan is Louie.

My 2 cents for the thread.

I call it Lupin like lupin the thrid haha.
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