DRG WS Help

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DRG WS help
 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2009-09-02 20:05:16
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Astronym said:
not sure for two handers, since they only have one opportunity to DA on a ws, but for one handers, the brutal has been proven mathematically over time to add more dmg because of the procurement of DA in a ws. we have two opportunities for it to proc though, so im not sure how it works with two handers, although from what people are saying it looks like the brutal will also consistently beat out any other option or an earring due to the fact that over time the DA will procure enough in Ws's to lead to more dmg.

I think you've been misinformed. DA can proc twice on two-handed weapons also, unless I'm mistaken. I know I've gotten random 21-TP returns from Guillotine even though I use Moliones's Sickle (501 Delay=13.2 TP per hit, /SAM +15 sTP makes that 15.6 per hit, Rajas+Brutal makes it 16.4 per hit, rounds down to 16. Guillotine is 4 hits, so 16+3=19 on a normal WS.)

The only thing that prevents you from Double Attacking twice on a WS is either A)It's a single-hit WS, or B)It already has the cap of 8 hits (Asuran Fists).
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-09-02 20:06:57
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Seriin said:
True, but in my time using Thal I've never known the proc rate on the -eva to be consistent or happen when I needed it to. Farming, very often, but even on merit mobs it just never seemed to want to go a whole lot.

~just my two cents anyway. I prefer using the Fay, but I respect a choice to stick with Thallo.


Oh definitely, I have no problem with people using Fay; it's a very good weapon in its own right and I respect that.

It comes down to personal preference really... and I must admit one reason I am using Thal over Fay is because I love the look of the Thal type of lance... was one of the things I loved most about hitting DRG75, actually looking like I'm using a lethal polearm.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-02 20:07:29
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You can proc DA on the first 2 hits of a WS,

Wiki said:

May activate during weapon skills.

* On multi-hit weapon skills, Double Attack can occur on the first two hits.
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-09-02 20:17:39
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I believe you can get even more since two seems like such an arbitrary number and I believe I've seen it occur on Guillotine about three times since I've started playing.
 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2009-09-02 20:22:22
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Raenryong said:
I believe you can get even more since two seems like such an arbitrary number and I believe I've seen it occur on Guillotine about three times since I've started playing.

I wouldn't count on getting more than two procs per WS. I know for a FACT the Cap on Triple Attack during WS is one proc, and by law of averages, that would mean the cap on DA is 2 per WS.
 Phoenix.Astronym
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By Phoenix.Astronym 2009-09-02 20:46:46
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ah , didna know it could proc twice on one handers, now i do ^^ then it would definitely beat any other earring.
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-02 20:55:54
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Enternius said:
Raenryong said:
I believe you can get even more since two seems like such an arbitrary number and I believe I've seen it occur on Guillotine about three times since I've started playing.

I wouldn't count on getting more than two procs per WS. I know for a FACT the Cap on Triple Attack during WS is one proc, and by law of averages, that would mean the cap on DA is 2 per WS.

not saying that you're wrong, but a you can't rly use a general statement like that in a videogame. Its not natural, there is no law of averages here. They could program a ws to double attack 10 times if they wanted to.
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-02 21:00:00
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Also if your "i know for a fact" is based off dancing edge on thf/nin, 6 + 2 = 8 hits. 8 is the max. So using DE wouldn't be a viable test at all.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-09-02 21:00:52
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Vegetto said:
Also if your "i know for a fact" is based off dancing edge on thf/nin, 6 + 2 = 8 hits. 8 is the max. So using DE wouldn't be a viable test at all.

Even not sub thf it couldve still been just 1 triple attack lol
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-09-02 21:05:46
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Dasva said:
Vegetto said:
Also if your "i know for a fact" is based off dancing edge on thf/nin, 6 + 2 = 8 hits. 8 is the max. So using DE wouldn't be a viable test at all.

Even not sub thf it couldve still been just 1 triple attack lol

Good point, either way lol DE isn't a sufficient test subject.
 Midgardsormr.Frobeus
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2009-09-02 21:10:01
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Quick question for Raen/Veg.

Cletine / Rose Strap vs Skystrider / pole + earring vs Thaso/Fay / pole.

I assume that Cletine is the worst option but I already have one and Drg will be my 7th job (likely to use never > little), so I was wondering if it is a decent option or do the other combos blow it away badly?

Also to consider the times I would use Drg would most likely be double brd + Cor merit pts when I dont' feel like being Sam or War. 17% haste in gear.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-02 21:23:58
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Frobeus said:
Quick question for Raen/Veg.

Cletine / Rose Strap vs Skystrider / pole + earring vs Thaso/Fay / pole.

I assume that Cletine is the worst option but I already have one and Drg will be my 7th job (likely to use never > little), so I was wondering if it is a decent option or do the other combos blow it away badly?

Also to consider the times I would use Drg would most likely be double brd + Cor merit pts when I dont' feel like being Sam or War. 17% haste in gear.


Other options kinda blow it away imo, lowest base dmg, and needed a rose for a 6 hit(if it makes it a 6hit didnt do math) kinda already sounds worse off, Sky strider + Earring is temping, cuz the STR, but less base dmg again, in this comparison, Thala most base dmg is nice but,

Skystrider + Earring, would probably be the best option, losing 1 base dmg, but gaining that much STR and the jump TP bonus, is nice.

Edit**

If you dont have Earring, Thalas is good, but that Str+6 and atk+ beats out base dmg+1 imo
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-09-02 21:33:41
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I assume you're using a storetp body since the question involves Rose on Cletine and Pole on the others?

At any rate, D difference is 3 which'll be like 3% or slightly higher damage during the TP phase and a lot less during the WS phase.

The delay difference of 12 is approximately 2.4%~ DoT and WS frequency, where Pole grip gives you 1.9% DoT and WS frequency. 2dex (on Thal) is 1.5acc which is ~1% DoT and WS frequency assuming acc is uncapped.

Crit hit rate+3% is very hard to quantify.

Overall they're going to be VERY close. If we could quantify the crit rate increase, it would be possible to say definitively but since we cannot, it is challenging.
 Bahamut.Rumaha
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-02 21:41:13
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Also, the difference weapons require slightly difference gear, so you'd really have to put up complete gear sets to have a real comparison, but as per strait weapons, Id say Skystrider + Earring > Cletine.
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By Leviathan.Panthera 2009-09-02 23:09:43
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alt for flame ring is thunder ring, the dex is nice for drakesbane's modifier, crit and accuracy which I think is better overall
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2009-09-02 23:10:55
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---/ pole or rose / --- / tiphia
ace's / pcc / assault or supremecy / brutal
askar / dusk / iota / rajas
cuchu / swift / homam / homam.

WS.

---/ pole or rose / --- / tiphia/olibaum
gnadbod / gorget / assault or supremecy / brutal
askar / heca / flame / rajas
forager / warwolf / askar / heca

(also have heca body, but idk how that would affect 6 hit with different weapons, im sure i would have to ws in askar with cletine though)
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-02 23:14:58
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Frobeus said:
---/ pole or rose / --- / tiphia
ace's / pcc / assault or supremecy / brutal
askar / dusk / iota / rajas
cuchu / swift / homam / homam.

WS.

---/ pole or rose / --- / tiphia/olibaum
gnadbod / gorget / assault or supremecy / brutal
askar / heca / flame / rajas
forager / warwolf / askar / heca

(also have heca body, but idk how that would affect 6 hit with different weapons, im sure i would have to ws in askar with cletine though)


Id say use Skystrider, some nice gear there, so u can WS in heca, i dont feel like mathing sTP atm lol, Nice TP and WS setups.

Edit**

In Dyn Xarcc, typ more later
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2009-09-02 23:19:54
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Well tbh I knew going in that Cletine wouldn't be the top choice, but, seeing as it is my 7th job and will hardly be used, the "free" route seems pretty enticing. Yeah I could always farm up the pole but :/ and I do already have a cletine in storage.

I was just wondering if it would be close. Also I was wondering how the delay difference would benefit cletine since I would only be using it in very high haste situations. IE Haste, march, march, hasso, with a ~haste build.

Edit: Checked the stp on ffxicalculator and with skystrider it looks like I should be able to WS in heca body and maintain 6 hit as long as at least 2 hits from drakesbane land.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-02 23:27:09
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Frobeus said:
Well tbh I knew going in that Cletine wouldn't be the top choice, but, seeing as it is my 7th job and will hardly be used, the "free" route seems pretty enticing. Yeah I could always farm up the pole but :/ and I do already have a cletine in storage.

I was just wondering if it would be close. Also I was wondering how the delay difference would benefit cletine since I would only be using it in very high haste situations. IE Haste, march, march, hasso, with a ~haste build.

Edit: Checked the stp on ffxicalculator and with skystrider it looks like I should be able to WS in heca body and maintain 6 hit as long as at least 2 hits from drakesbane land.


Free option is indeed nice, having the earring Skys' is better option, idk how close, Raen will cover that lol, since it keeps 6 hit, think about that they both have 6 hit, 1 has more str and DA as well as base dmg and atk, 1 slightly lower delay.

Still Dyna,
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By Midgardsormr.Frobeus 2009-09-02 23:32:48
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Rumaha said:
Frobeus said:
Well tbh I knew going in that Cletine wouldn't be the top choice, but, seeing as it is my 7th job and will hardly be used, the "free" route seems pretty enticing. Yeah I could always farm up the pole but :/ and I do already have a cletine in storage.

I was just wondering if it would be close. Also I was wondering how the delay difference would benefit cletine since I would only be using it in very high haste situations. IE Haste, march, march, hasso, with a ~haste build.

Edit: Checked the stp on ffxicalculator and with skystrider it looks like I should be able to WS in heca body and maintain 6 hit as long as at least 2 hits from drakesbane land.


Free option is indeed nice, having the earring Skys' is better option, idk how close, Raen will cover that lol, since it keeps 6 hit, think about that they both have 6 hit, 1 has more str and DA as well as base dmg and atk, 1 slightly lower delay.

Still Dyna,


Slightly lower delay and Crit rate +3%, which is what really made me look at this option in the first place. Since Drakes is a crit based WS, well yea....

Also some vit for jump /grin
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-02 23:33:46
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Indeed, the way I look at it, Crit makes ur WS do steadier dmg, while the STR and Base dmg make the # top end go up
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-09-02 23:52:52
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I'd argue it's the other way around; you will always have str/base damage, but you won't always have a crit proc.

As for 6hit!

492 base = 13.3
480 base = 13.0

With +21 total; /sam, Rajas, Brutal:

13.3 => 16.0
13.0 => 15.7

You have +26stp total with /sam, Rajas, Brutal, Askar Korazin;

492 base => 16.7 => WS needs 16.5. You can therefore WS in Heca and land 2+ hits.
480 base => 16.3 => WS needs 18.5. If you WS in heca you need to land ALL four hits!

Skystrider D93
Thal D94 DEX2 VIT2

Supremacy Earring STR6 Atk4
Assault Earring Acc2 Atk5

Skystrider/Supremacy vs Thal/Assault
STR6 Atk3.5 vs D1 VIT2 Acc3.5

Gonna ignore VIT2 cause it's meh to work with.

STR6: gonna say it's +1.5% DoT and WS damage but in reality the WS part might be smaller.

Atk3.5: depends on target, let's just say 1% DoT/WS damage as an approximate.

D1: 1% DoT, about 0.67% WS.

Acc3.5: ~2% DoT and WS frequency, unknown% consistency on WS.

Basically, if you are benefitting from the accuracy on Thal/Assault Earring, Thal is better.

I ignored both Jump TP bonus and the evasion down proc because they're hard to quantify exactly. This is not exact!

As for Cletine, I personally don't think it'll beat Thal just on a hunch. Until we can quantify crit rate exactly, cannot say for sure.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-03 00:06:32
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Raenryong said:


492 base => 16.7 => WS needs 16.5. You can therefore WS in Heca and land 2+ hits.
480 base => 16.3 => WS needs 18.5. If you WS in heca you need to land ALL four hits!


Is a big thing,

and I don't think with that gear, he needs so much acc, w/o merits hes like around 85% ish on Birds(didnt calc), so yea.

Edit**
Calc ur own acc and make a decision based on that ;p
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By Fairy.Seriin 2009-09-03 00:53:41
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Panthera said:
alt for flame ring is thunder ring, the dex is nice for drakesbane's modifier, crit and accuracy which I think is better overall


This got overlooked but warrants a response-
While you are correct that DEX is good for crit and acc, Drakesbane is a 50% STR mod with no DEX. Penta is 20%/20% str/dex. On top of that, if DRG has other melee-DDs beat on something it is ACC due to a free +22 job trait, so that extra ACC is kinda going to waste on a slot where the STR could really pull through and add to the damage.

If I'm hitting some unseen Cap I don't know about or missing something please let me know.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-03 00:55:47
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Seriin said:
Panthera said:
alt for flame ring is thunder ring, the dex is nice for drakesbane's modifier, crit and accuracy which I think is better overall


This got overlooked but warrants a response-
While you are correct that DEX is good for crit and acc, Drakesbane is a 50% STR mod with no DEX. Penta is 20%/20% str/dex. On top of that, if DRG has other melee-DDs beat on something it is ACC due to a free +22 job trait, so that extra ACC is kinda going to waste on a slot where the STR could really pull through and add to the damage.

If I'm hitting some unseen Cap I don't know about or missing something please let me know.


Typically Drg lacks some STR even having heca, STR = higher DMG, they are both nice options, so really its player preference. 1 is higher dmg 1 is better avg.
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By Fairy.Seriin 2009-09-03 00:57:41
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Sorry if I sounded harsh I wasn't trying to say "this is the only way" I was mostly trying to clear the "Drakes = Dex" thing. Both are nice options.
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By Bahamut.Rumaha 2009-09-03 01:00:13
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Seriin said:
Sorry if I sounded harsh I wasn't trying to say "this is the only way" I was mostly trying to clear the "Drakes = Dex" thing. Both are nice options.


Oh I know, but even using DEX rings you are by no means wasting that Acc bonus trait, cuz landing 4~5+ hits is hard to do, w/ enough Dex stacked u can be at 90%+ in a WS build. It is in ring terms player preference.
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2009-09-03 01:05:26
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Drakesbane is the most awkward WS ever to gear.

Do you focus on a 50% STR mod ...
... or tasty criticals?

On top of that, where do you put enough accuracy to land 4/4 hits as much as possible?!
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