So You Wanna Tank On PUP?

Language: JP EN DE FR
New Items
2018-08-14
105 users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Puppet Master » So you wanna tank on PUP?
So you wanna tank on PUP?
First Page 2 3 ... 18 19
Offline
By clearlyamule 2017-04-30 14:04:15
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ah I see the confusion other guy was asking about gear dt not pdt. Totally forgot the legs though so that does get to 46% dt.
Offline
Posts: 977
By Ruaumoko 2017-05-02 21:30:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
YouTube Video Placeholder

Not my video but I was part of the group.

I took most of my tanking attachments off and went for a more aggressive Valoredge load-out including Speedloaders and Inhibitors.

This was the fastest Fu I have ever seen, so fast we couldn't even keep up with it's uses of Nullification.

'Its dead Jim'.
[+]
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5906
By Asura.Saevel 2017-05-03 07:22:44
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Our army of KI mules lol.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1868
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-05-03 07:29:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ruaumoko said: »
YouTube Video Placeholder

Not my video but I was part of the group.

I took most of my tanking attachments off and went for a more aggressive Valoredge load-out including Speedloaders and Inhibitors.

This was the fastest Fu I have ever seen, so fast we couldn't even keep up with it's uses of Nullification.

'Its dead Jim'.

Master Strategist Saevel said:
Uh oh...just survive.
Offline
Posts: 977
By Ruaumoko 2017-05-03 09:46:03
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It's a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest.

Not everyone in the group, player characters especially, were as sturdy as my Automaton so urging people to stay alive is reasonable.
[+]
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1868
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-05-03 18:09:12
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ruaumoko said: »
It's a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest.

Not everyone in the group, player characters especially, were as sturdy as my Automaton so urging people to stay alive is reasonable.

I'm just ribbing Saevel, it's something you'll hear from anyone leading an event at one time or another because it's pretty generic. Which is also why it's not really "reasonable" in that "just survive" is incredibly generic and doesn't offer any suggestions as to what to do to survive. Turtle up in DT? Run away like you're a WHM in the dunes that just pulled aggro? Stop all enmity generation so you don't possibly pull from the tank?

I mean, it's not like too many people actively go into battle with an intent on dying.
 Shiva.Siviard
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Siviard
Posts: 1045
By Shiva.Siviard 2017-05-03 18:15:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Ruaumoko said: »
It's a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest.

Not everyone in the group, player characters especially, were as sturdy as my Automaton so urging people to stay alive is reasonable.

I'm just ribbing Saevel, it's something you'll hear from anyone leading an event at one time or another because it's pretty generic. Which is also why it's not really "reasonable" in that "just survive" is incredibly generic and doesn't offer any suggestions as to what to do to survive. Turtle up in DT? Run away like you're a WHM in the dunes that just pulled aggro? Stop all enmity generation so you don't possibly pull from the tank?

I mean, it's not like too many people actively go into battle with an intent on dying.

If you ain't dying, you ain't trying.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: bluecop81
Posts: 733
By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-05-03 18:26:49
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Siviard said: »
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Ruaumoko said: »
It's a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest.

Not everyone in the group, player characters especially, were as sturdy as my Automaton so urging people to stay alive is reasonable.

I'm just ribbing Saevel, it's something you'll hear from anyone leading an event at one time or another because it's pretty generic. Which is also why it's not really "reasonable" in that "just survive" is incredibly generic and doesn't offer any suggestions as to what to do to survive. Turtle up in DT? Run away like you're a WHM in the dunes that just pulled aggro? Stop all enmity generation so you don't possibly pull from the tank?

I mean, it's not like too many people actively go into battle with an intent on dying.

If you ain't dying, you ain't trying.


More like if you are not trying to kill everyone else, where is the fun?
necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [456 days between previous and next post]
Offline
Posts: 117
By Teuphist 2018-08-02 07:29:50
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I strongly feel we should make an attempt to figure out gearing/defense for the master in order to co-tank for better enmity management against these ever increasing DPS jobs.
Could potentially increase PUP being sought after if we could get more on par with PLD or RUN (though vastly different).
 Ragnarok.Neyochimaru
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Neyochi
Posts: 40
By Ragnarok.Neyochimaru 2018-08-02 09:22:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Won't happen. Co-tanking isn't very bright. You have an immortal automaton. What more do you want? Pup tank every omen, all of dynamis D that i've done (-wave3), most of escha, unity, etc. Most of if not all of the HQBCNM fights....

Now, tell me why you'd want to have yourself as a master anywhere near your puppet, and the enemy?? Sure. Some things have hate resets, and you think you'd wanna try and keep hate in order to use vent to pass it back to the automaton. But if you die, it dies, and you'll not never but hell never be anywhere near as sturdy on your best day as that puppet.

I found love for pup. I hated it for a long *** time. People will never 'seek after' pup, and they wont ever be on par with pld or rune. I don't see that as a bad thing. But if you're insisting on being up in stuffs face with your puppet, you're gonna be one of those pups that gives what i said that negative twirl.
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Xilk
Posts: 425
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-08-02 09:37:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
There are already good ways to build enmity on automaton. you can do the /blu techniques that Tru described at the beginning of this thread, then while pet is tanking make sure to swap pet enmity set in when pet used flash, provoke, shield bash.

Why would you want the master to be in range?

The only tool for managing hate between master and pet is Ventriloquy. but that's not suited for co tanking. it would either kill the master from AoE, or kill the master from taking hate from pet.

Co-Tanking would make more sense for bst, who must generate all the enmity on master, then transfer it all to pet with snarl. bst also serves as a better dd on master than pup does, and the master on bst is sturdier than master on pup.
Offline
Posts: 117
By Teuphist 2018-08-02 16:00:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Neyochimaru said: »
Won't happen. Co-tanking isn't very bright. You have an immortal automaton. What more do you want? Pup tank every omen, all of dynamis D that i've done (-wave3), most of escha, unity, etc. Most of if not all of the HQBCNM fights....

Now, tell me why you'd want to have yourself as a master anywhere near your puppet, and the enemy?? Sure. Some things have hate resets, and you think you'd wanna try and keep hate in order to use vent to pass it back to the automaton. But if you die, it dies, and you'll not never but hell never be anywhere near as sturdy on your best day as that puppet.

I found love for pup. I hated it for a long *** time. People will never 'seek after' pup, and they wont ever be on par with pld or rune. I don't see that as a bad thing. But if you're insisting on being up in stuffs face with your puppet, you're gonna be one of those pups that gives what i said that negative twirl.

The idea is for when you and your LS or maybe a small group you usually get with want to switch up jobs and maybe your ordinary tank can play something else. In many cases where players want to play...let's just say WAR (since it's the one job guaranteed to steal hate from an Automaton) and you want to potentially reduce said WAR from stealing hate. Keep yourself busy with swapping sets as needed and I would like to believe being near the Automaton isn't so terrible.

A good NM which I have successfully done this on in the early Omen days is Kin with a WAR and SAM fighting. They did hold back as to not steal hate from the Automaton, but I also didn't have the enmity gear on master or sets as I do now. Our WHM healed as you would expect and beside a few learning curves our runs went well with this setup.

No, I'm not suggesting co-tanking Dynamis or T4 Reisenjima, but maybe that we challenge ourselves do maybe survive a Kouryu attempt.

I'd just like to say that this community has never been about the Meta. It's always going to be looked at negatively by majority of the player base until we're needed (mostly for Ambuscade). I know, I've literally played the job since day 1 of its implementation and the one job you'll likely only see me on outside of events where I'm not WHM. That being said, I don't think any of us have some fear of what people are going to think if you attempt something not commonly thought of or that it's going to hurt the job's reputation any. I know what happens if the master dies, if it should not and who tends to be the last one standing in many situations (PUP saving the day). In a way that answers the "why?", it's fun to challenge the limitations set by ones' comfort zone.
 Ragnarok.Neyochimaru
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Neyochi
Posts: 40
By Ragnarok.Neyochimaru 2018-08-02 18:46:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I, being one of those 'Dont care, gtfo' people, and enjoying the thrill of 'screw why, i got this', suppose i can see what you mean. honestly, i prefer a puppet tank over a real tank when possible. It's just easier, simpler, safer, and just outright better in my experience, and i have a built pld. I learned by rolling with a career pup, and inheriting his body. I misunderstood your meaning the first time. I still think masters are back line, and back line only these days, but i also am never on that character for more than a few mins at a time.

Hate's not a problem for me though, on almost everything, and that's generally versus a rema blu, a nirvana smn, and a rdm with semi good gear. Pup is a staple in my personal playstyle anymore.

Maybe i just dont see what you mean ebcause i dont have those problems as my style is different. :D

Best of luck.

only bad pup is a noob/dead pup!
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Xilk
Posts: 425
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-08-02 21:11:55
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Yeah, I don't have trouble holding hate on pup, and I've no idea why you think going in w/ master would be helpful for holding hate.
Offline
Posts: 117
By Teuphist 2018-08-10 05:10:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
Yeah, I don't have trouble holding hate on pup, and I've no idea why you think going in w/ master would be helpful for holding hate.

Because it has helped holding hate..as stated above. I imagine control would have been worse if just the Automaton was relied upon for it.

Teuphist said: »
A good NM which I have successfully done this on in the early Omen days is Kin with a WAR and SAM fighting. They did hold back as to not steal hate from the Automaton, but I also didn't have the enmity gear on master or sets as I do now.

Have to expose yourself to it to know if you are capable.
Online
Posts: 225
By Aerix 2018-08-26 23:41:32
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I don't see a problem with using the master to build hate while the maton is doing its thing, but there's also no reason for the master to be anywhere in range of a mob's attacks while doing so.

/PLD and /BLU both provide hate tools you can more or less cast from safety and if your maton dies, you can simply transfer all the built-up enmity to your pet. This will keep NMs from going after mages, which can be quite useful in Omen to prevent a party draw-in.

However, I don't see a lot benefit in trying to outdo your Automaton in hate gain just to be able to keep up with hate around high-end DDs. PUP as a job just doesn't have the tools/gear to accomplish that, as really good DDs will rip hate even from "real" tanks like PLD and RUN. Not to mention you're putting yourself in danger and giving up the #1 advantage PUP has over other tank jobs.

PUP has a place and is highly compatible with certain jobs/setups, but you're better off doing something other than tanking in a high-buff melee group.
[+]
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Xilk
Posts: 425
By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2018-08-27 05:26:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ventriloquy is not Snarl.

Snarl will shed all hate from master to pet.

Ventriloquy SWAPS enmity. so if you try to build up enmity on master, then swap it, you are going to die.

Automaton holding hate is largely about building CE and then NOT losing it. IF you swap gear too much, you are swapping OUT of pet -dt set, and you lose enmity faster and take more damage.

This is why using a manual macro for choosing when to swap in pet enmity set is better than setting up an automatic gearswap rule.

Sometimes swapping gear is better, sometimes it is worse. This depends on what the mob is doing and how much damage automaton will take.

If master is swapping more often into master enmity set, to build up enmity on master, then it is takeing alot more damage on pet and losing alot more enmity.

IF you are NOT swapping gear on master to cast spells, you will never catch up in enmity or surpass your automaton, which you would need to do to successfully use Ventriloquy.

/blu hate tools all need to be cast on the enemy. so you need to be close enough for that. They are often centered on the master also. The ranges are not listed, but they are not al 20. which means you are getting close enough to take damage on master.

/pld and /run hate tools (mostly flash) can be cast at 20' but you simply won't build up significant emity with those tools at all.

/blu is mostly a great way to start a fight building up a huge bunch of enmity on master then transferring to pet BEFORE pet builds any enmity of its own.

Once automaton builds more enmity than master, swapping enmity will just send mob after master. IF you are tanking anything significant, it would be complete foolishness.

Ventriloquy is a very useful tool for grabbing an add while automaton is holding an NM. Cast flash on an add that pops, then use ventriloquy to send it to pet. However the 1 min recast timer makes this only useful in a slow manner. Multiple adds cannot be quickly claimed.

tldr: Ventriloquy mechanics make it completely impractical to build enmity on master MID-fight while automaton if already tanking.
[+]
 Ragnarok.Neyochimaru
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Neyochi
Posts: 40
By Ragnarok.Neyochimaru 2018-08-27 06:26:49
Link | Quote | Reply
 
The only application i've found for ever putting master in any danger at all has been for hate reset mobs. Example, the orc ambuscade. pup/puppet would be on opposite sides of the main boss, holding hate. if he managed to get his hate reset off or you for some reason couldnt break the aura in time, and master snags hate,vent. puppet has control again, things flowed onward, as smoothly as possible given that crap ambu.

Or, any nm that hate resets. have master build some hate to vent back to bot after it sheds all hate, giving it at least a leg up on getting it back before people die.


I cannot stress this enough. If you're having issues with your puppet not being able to hold hate for whatever reason, on it's own, vs a monster that has no form of hate reset, you're doing it wrong.
[+]
 Ragnarok.Neyochimaru
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Neyochi
Posts: 40
By Ragnarok.Neyochimaru 2018-08-27 06:29:56
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Only stipulation being that your puppet is up against someone that's going all out specifically to take hate away from puppet.

If someone's smart enough to take on this burden, then they're well aware of the consequences.

puppet is basically just throw money at stuff until you win in a sense. Dawn mulsums work. that lil dotonbori robo looking bastich is pretty much immortal if you have the money to blow.
Offline
Posts: 117
By Teuphist 2018-08-31 11:27:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
As I stated earlier, it worked for me against Kin. As in, I would melee along with our SAM and WAR, WS and provoke in enmity gear. Ventriloquy once Target was used, turtle up and pray to Altana that our WHM could keep me alive until Vent was back up. The constant enmity generation from both myself and the puppet made it easier to manage along with ensuring our dps didn't go all out due to my own shortcomings with enmity and -dt. I imagine this fight wouldn't be as difficult today.

By the responses that many of you appear (I repeat...'appear') comfortable with making minimal gear swaps and my suggestion throws a wrench in that content, which would explain why this is being denied consideration even in a rare situation. I'm not suggesting we attempt to make this the norm or even attempting to say let's co-tank Vinipata, but to know that it is an option depending entirely on the content you are fighting and not to be fearful of dying or losing hate.

Chances are that if you find yourself on the front line, you aren't spending most of your time in pet -DT gear (honestly don't know anyone who only puts on -DT and enmity sets). For instance, when I melee with the puppet, this is equipped...

ItemSet 360382

With Pet: Haste 10% on cape, the puppet has max gear haste, 1x wind up (at times) and I swap into full enmity for its WS at times. This works as intended.

The Ambuscade Gnole was my first experience with testing this in which WAR was the only job capable of making me work to maintain hate.
Offline
Posts: 117
By Teuphist 2018-09-01 19:44:35
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I want to make a correction, I didn't provoke as I was PUP/BLU for the Kin runs. Provoke and WS dmg wouldn't be enough for personal enmity generation. I'd also recommend Raging Fists or Howling Fist.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 1908
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-09-01 21:43:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Re: hate resets/ventriloquy, to further stress a couple points:

Hate resets don't really require putting the master in sustained danger - you're only aiming for the master to have hate for a couple seconds. Once the reset happens, assuming puppet Strobe/Flashbulb aren't incoming right away, master gets a quick spike of enmity from some hate generating JA/spell (Provoke, Flash, a /BLU spell, whatever) and promptly Ventriloquys that back onto the puppet. Master should only have hate long enough to get a jump on the rest of the alliance, shoot that enmity over to your puppet (which will then continue to Provoke/Flash when timers allow, to re-establish hate). Example that I use regularly would be Gin using Zero Hour. I tend to /WAR for Omen, and I'll have Defender up in anticipation of Zero Hour. Once Gin uses Zero Hour -> quick Provoke -> quick Ventriloquy -> back to work.

To be clear, the situation in the preceding paragraph also has nothing to do with building up master enmity over time and dumping it onto the puppet (which can be useful for situations like Aerix mentioned, where maybe a puppet dies and you want to have built-up master hate transferred to a brand new puppet; for instance, a puppet that eats an Unfaltering Bravado and dies).

For hate RESETS, once the reset happens, you, your puppet, and everyone else in the alliance has their hate reset. All you're concerned about is regaining enmity quickly after everyone got reset to zero (which is why it's a real pain when some DD wasn't paying attention and unleashes a massive WS immediately AFTER the reset). Utterly irrelevant whether you had a CE store prior to the hate reset. Not that anyone here was arguing otherwise, but wanted to make sure that point is clear for anyone who is reading and may be overlooking it.

Also, be careful on hate resets that your puppet isn't about to use voke/flash. If you're 2 seconds away from a puppet flash, just let that happen. No need to end up with both master and puppet with similar hate, in which case Ventriloquy isn't going to be much help. You only want to dump hate onto the puppet when the master has significantly more enmity.

Ragnarok.Neyochimaru said: »
I cannot stress this enough. If you're having issues with your puppet not being able to hold hate for whatever reason, on it's own, vs a monster that has no form of hate reset, you're doing it wrong.

That's going too far. If you're playing with a mage party, yeah, there's really no reason you should lose hate with a puppet tank.

But by game mechanics alone, a strong and well-buffed melee DD is going to get enough CE to take hate off your puppet eventually. That's just a weak spot for puppet tanks (and all tanks, but an automaton more so than a PLD or RUN), so when you're using a melee strategy with good enough melees, PUP is just going to have a harder time keeping hate.
Offline
Posts: 117
By Teuphist 2018-09-02 10:14:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Thank you, Capuchin. It's good to know I'm not alone in maximizing the utility of the job.
I'll quote myself...
Teuphist said: »
Have to expose yourself to it to know if you are capable.
First Page 2 3 ... 18 19
Log in to post.