~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

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~First and Final Line of Defense v2.0~
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By Taint 2019-04-09 12:38:14
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soralin said: »
Taint said: »
Arke set is pretty damn fun for PLD DPS. Zero Meva but its typically not an issue on PLD since you'll have a WHM focused on you.

A full +1 set is +50 damage to TP. So a 1000 damage hit is 500 tp. With multiple mobs on you the TP gain can be crazy. Add MA gear in all your other slots.

The MEVA is pretty clutch for Paladin DPS.

The reason this actually loses a lot of its value, is with a pimp Phalanx set Ambuscade V1VD mobs generally hit me for 0 dmg, and crit for like 20~40.

The TP Moves hit a bit harder, but its meh.

If you are taking tonnes of grey damage, you're enmitty will very rapidly evaporate and holding hate against DDs blowing out 50~90k WSes will be nigh impossible.

Arke is fun for sure but, not viable in end game :(


PLD Meva is pretty terrible in general unless you have a Volte set laying around. You don't take more "grey" damage Arke has tons of -DT. And it works great in endgame...
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-04-09 12:42:40
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Quetzalcoatl.Commencal said: »
He’s right though, you’re reading one line as if he’s completely writing off Burt.

Enmity is the best part and PDTII is mostly useless. When it wasn’t useless, we were swapping shields mid fight or for certain moves like MR’s Cloudsplitter.
I find myself swapping shield quite a bit when I do Wave 3. 400/600 nukes aren't too rare without Aegis.

I'm being lazy on Einherjar but so far tanking anything in Dyna D without Burtgang has been trivial ever since I upgraded my gear (and the healer wasn't ***so all the more reason). Final bosses can still hurt me here and there but that's really rare.

Halphas is an *** until people remember they have Erase.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-04-09 12:44:05
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Taint said: »
Arke set is pretty damn fun for PLD DPS. Zero Meva but its typically not an issue on PLD since you'll have a WHM focused on you.

A full +1 set is +50 damage to TP. So a 1000 damage hit is 500 tp. With multiple mobs on you the TP gain can be crazy. Add MA gear in all your other slots.
So that set is actually viable? That's good to hear.

I've had a NQ set laying around for ever, I'll try to get Su3 so I can try it out.
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By soralin 2019-04-09 13:00:16
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Taint said: »
You don't take more "grey" damage Arke has tons of -DT. And it works great in endgame...

Thats my point.

Arke's TP gain effect is meaningless when monsters do 0 damage to you.

And a master paladin will take like 0 damage from most end game. Only until you are looking at stuff like Wave 3 Dyna do mobs start doing non-trivial amounts of grey damage where Arke gear may actually give you a noticeable amount of TP.

Furthermore, Arke gear doesn't have ANY attack, which means your pDif will be hot garbage, which means your DPS output will be awful.

Also no Refresh or Regen or Absorb effects or anything else tangible.
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 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-04-09 13:24:24
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You wouldn't be weaponskilling in the arke set.

Pretty sure he's inferring TP gain will be pretty phenomenal from the DT -> TP aspect. With tons of accuracy as well.
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By soralin 2019-04-09 14:37:47
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Thats.. what?

No.

He was talking about Arkes 'TP hained when hit' effect.

Arke gives to proportional to dmg you take.

A master paladin should be taking very close to 0 dmg from monsters attacks on like 90% of end game.

Thus, in practice Arkes tp gain effect is actually not that great.

Also your tp gain from stuff like double attack, triple attack, and store tp with capped haste will far outstrip arkes tp gain. Absolutely without question.

If your gaining tp from arke fast enough to outweigh flamma and valorous gear, that means you are taking huge amounts of damage and are losing so much hate. You are either going to die, or you are gonna lose hate, whichever happens first.

I can however see potential in it.

And thats using it in conjunction with Shining One.

Reason being Impulse Drive peaks at like 2400 tp. So getting slammed with tank busters and having huge amounts of 'over' tp is not a bad thing, impulse drive spam will acceot all the TP you can throw at it.

And you can easily pump out 50k impulse drives as a paladin.

So I could see soloing with Arke set to rapidly farm JP with Shining one being a very valud game plan, yeah.
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By Taint 2019-04-09 15:08:07
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Your damage comments don’t even make sense. PLDs do not take very close 0 damage during endgame fights.

Especially not in your MA flamma/valorous gear.
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By soralin 2019-04-09 16:32:47
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Taint said: »
Your damage comments don’t even make sense. PLDs do not take very close 0 damage during endgame fights.

Especially not in your MA flamma/valorous gear.

I mean if you want me to post screenshots I will.

But Ambuscade VD mobs generally hit me for 0, and crit for like 10~30.

I dunno what you want me to say. Git gud?

And my Gear has capped DT, and I have capped Phalanx+ sets. Only way I could up my tankiness is if I managed to one day get a Phalanx+5 augment on my odyssean feet. Perhaps one day the RNG gods will bless me.

Actually lemme math out just how much a mob needs to hit me for to do >0 dmg

Aegis 99 blocks for 83% dmg as a master pld.

With Burtgang you are sitting at 68% PDT.

That is a total physical reduction of 94.56%

A maxed out paladin should be sitting at around a 30 base phalanx with +30 potency, for a total goal of 60 reduction off Phalanx.
(Deacon Sword, Priwen, Yorium Head/Body/Legs, JSE Cape, and Souv+1 hands/feet)

That means the monster needs to be hitting you for 1122 damage before reductions to break through your phalanx dmg.

(1122 * (1-0.9456)) - 60
(1122 * 5.44%) - 60
61-60
1

Ambu VD mobs hit for like... 700~800 tops when you have 0 DT at absolute tops. They aren't even remotely close to breaking through your phalanx.

They will crit for around 1200.

So yeah. No. Not even getting close to doing any damage to you if you are a master paladin.
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By Taint 2019-04-09 17:04:09
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Still doesn’t make sense even your math factors in an Aegis block.

You are also ignoring TP and magic moves.

Ambu is more gimmicks than damage to begin with and a great place for hybrid builds.
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By soralin 2019-04-09 17:46:27
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Taint said: »
Still doesn’t make sense even your math factors in an Aegis block.

You are also ignoring TP and magic moves.

Ambu is more gimmicks than damage to begin with and a great place for hybrid builds.

I did ignore TP and Magic moves because I specifically stated grey damage, and here's why.

TP Moves that hit like a truck will give you a massive flood of TP all at once.

The vast majority of the time that flood of TP will put you way above the fTP threshould for optimal DPS.

IE, if you are doing Chant spam or KotR spam, you don't really care about having more than 1K tp.

If the monster's move makes you jump up from 800 tp to like 1500 tp or more, all but 200 of that TP you got was useless and not worth noting.

Even at Savage Blade spam, you really only need to hit 1400 or so TP as Pld/War to max out your DPS, past that you are wasting time.

This is specifically why I mentioned it might actually work well with Shining One. Your Damage taken will be higher, enough that you generate TP reliably, AND Impulse Drive basically will take as much TP as you can pump into it, it's nearly impossible to 'over' TP Impulse drive do to its insane fTP scaling with Shining One's Crit bonus.

And Shining One spam on Paladin or War is a very valid Ambu strat from what I've seen.

But you still are missing the crucial point.

Arke has jack squat Double Attack, Triple Attack, Store Tp, and Attack.

My Hybrid Build I posted here: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46016/first-and-final-line-of-defense-v20/55/#3424241

Will out TP your arke set by a HUGE amount. You have to take on so much damage for Arke's 'Damage taken gained as TP' effect to even remotely come close to my hybrid set's extra store tp, double attack, higher acc, etc.

Also you aren't rocking Kubira Meikogai which is a massive DPS loss to your entire party, unless you have 100% DA warriors, but thats kind of out of style so chances are its a loss.

I am surprised people don't seem to care about Kubira that much, its an absolute savage beast of a body for paladin and 4% DA to your party is bananas as a free 'win more' buff.

And with the utter lack of Attack on your gear means you lose a pretty sizable chunk of grey damage due to your abyssal attack ratio.

And then the whole '0 meva' thing is the last nail in the coffin of the set. You will never resist anything with arke+1 5/5, and thats awful.

Arke is a good entry level set.

But the optimal set doesn't use a single piece of it for a reason.
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By Taint 2019-04-09 18:30:19
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The set you posted has one MA piece in the Arke slots.

Since you’ve obviously never used Arke you should at least look at the stats before stating wrong info.

And please read this on meva:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Magic_Evasion

Your TP cap of 1400 is just weird. Savage scales to 3000. Putting the scale cap at 2500 before a moonshade swap.

PLD is a slow TP generating job. The big hits (tp) push you to 1000 more than they cause you to over TP.

ItemSet 366091
ItemSet 366092
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-04-09 19:02:43
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soralin said: »
Taint said: »
Your damage comments don’t even make sense. PLDs do not take very close 0 damage during endgame fights.

Especially not in your MA flamma/valorous gear.

I mean if you want me to post screenshots I will.

But Ambuscade VD mobs generally hit me for 0, and crit for like 10~30.

I dunno what you want me to say. Git gud?

And my Gear has capped DT, and I have capped Phalanx+ sets. Only way I could up my tankiness is if I managed to one day get a Phalanx+5 augment on my odyssean feet. Perhaps one day the RNG gods will bless me.

Actually lemme math out just how much a mob needs to hit me for to do >0 dmg

Aegis 99 blocks for 83% dmg as a master pld.

With Burtgang you are sitting at 68% PDT.

That is a total physical reduction of 94.56%

A maxed out paladin should be sitting at around a 30 base phalanx with +30 potency, for a total goal of 60 reduction off Phalanx.
(Deacon Sword, Priwen, Yorium Head/Body/Legs, JSE Cape, and Souv+1 hands/feet)

That means the monster needs to be hitting you for 1122 damage before reductions to break through your phalanx dmg.

(1122 * (1-0.9456)) - 60
(1122 * 5.44%) - 60
61-60
1

Ambu VD mobs hit for like... 700~800 tops when you have 0 DT at absolute tops. They aren't even remotely close to breaking through your phalanx.

They will crit for around 1200.

So yeah. No. Not even getting close to doing any damage to you if you are a master paladin.
Just a couple of things I'd like to note.

Firstly Aegis' block dmg reduction on lvl 99 PLD is 81%. shield defense bonus is 6% at 99. Is the BGwiki page still saying 8% at 99? One of these days I may have to go through my test data and post some relevant data so I have a good reference for the change to the wiki.

Next, this particular statement confuses me.
soralin said: »
Aegis 99 blocks for 83% dmg as a master pld.
Why mention master PLD here? It's 81% on a fresh lvl 99 PLD and it's 81% on a master PLD. Mastery does nothing to affect Block dmg reduction.

And finally, nothing in your math accounts for what Aegis' block rate would be on these mobs. I can't recall offhand what level VD intense ambu mobs are, but they are very likely more than high enough to floor Aegis' block rate at 5%. The only time you'll actually be blocking for any significant value is during palisade. Yet your math is behaving as if you have 100% block rate with Aegis. This is not valid for any in game situation. Now, Ochain is quite another matter as it is actually possible to hit 100% blockrate on VD intense ambu mobs with it. But not in a hybrid set. Takes a lot of skill+/block+ and reprisal to get there. If you care to recalculate for Ochain, it's 66% dmg reduction on block.

Note that I'm not arguing for or against Arke here. And for all I know, Ambu mobs do typically hit you 0. I dunno. But if they do, it's not because you're blocking every hit with Aegis. So I don't think the the math presented here actually supports your case.
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By Pilipinoboi 2019-04-11 03:45:50
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Hello,

Scrolled through the thread and searched the Item Sets thread but was unable to find any up to date KoR sets.

Can anyone share theirs please or would it be very similar to Savage Blade set?

Thanks!
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By Taint 2019-04-11 05:26:51
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Pilipinoboi said: »
Hello,

Scrolled through the thread and searched the Item Sets thread but was unable to find any up to date KoR sets.

Can anyone share theirs please or would it be very similar to Savage Blade set?

Thanks!

I'm use Savage set but with Fotie neck/belt and Kokou's earring instead of Moonshade.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-04-14 11:56:45
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Taint said: »
The set you posted has one MA piece in the Arke slots.

Since you’ve obviously never used Arke you should at least look at the stats before stating wrong info.

And please read this on meva:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Magic_Evasion

Your TP cap of 1400 is just weird. Savage scales to 3000. Putting the scale cap at 2500 before a moonshade swap.

PLD is a slow TP generating job. The big hits (tp) push you to 1000 more than they cause you to over TP.

ItemSet 366091
ItemSet 366092
What would be the augments for the Rudianos in this specific context?
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By Taint 2019-04-14 12:11:53
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Dex20 acc30 att20 -10pdt da10

First set is -45dt before cape so -5dt would work. But you should always have shell.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-04-14 12:18:19
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Okay, that's what I understood. I was wondering if you went full DD on the other stats.
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By soralin 2019-04-15 11:53:35
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Optimized my hybrid set a bit more, after realising we could sacrifice some Haste for a bunch more DA on Seluvias + Valorous. Its a net positive.

HOWEVER!

This set is very balls to the wall, and will have some pretty thin HP.

I would strongly recommend only rocking this set with Moralltach, Excalibur, or Burtgang. Or Shining One if you are going Zerg mode.

Moralltach gives a big HP buffer to compensate, Burtgang is Burtgang, and Excalibur's 30 tic regen can make it a lot safer to go low life.

This is an end game set that should only be used by REMA paladin's, basically, who can actually put the massive DPS boost to use.

Basically, don't try and use this set unless you have a weapon to back it up with.

ItemSet 359870

If you need more HP, I'd recommend swapping out Acc/Att augments on the cape for another 80 HP, and then swapping Sulevia+2 hands into Souv+1 hands for more HP, which blends you into my normal hybrid set.

But for stuff like Ambuscade VD, Apex farming, etc where mobs should be hitting you for like 0 and you can soak up the damage, this set I believe approaches optimized DPS.

Telos Earring, Dedition Earring, etc are valid swap outs.

Depends on Store TP breakpoints for your weapon of choice and whether you are /sam or /war of course.

DA+Acc/Att+Dex+PDT on Cape

DA on Valorous Hose, or maybe Store TP if it puts you above a sTP breakpoint? Prolly DA is better though.
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By Bahamut.Lexouritis 2019-04-15 19:13:09
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https://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/366228

Savage Blade

WS at 100%, (/WAR)
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By Asura.Tarquine 2019-04-16 10:59:09
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As a recent returner from a 3 year break, I'm picking up PLD again as one of the few jobs I am looking to focus on. Just priced up a relic to be approx 40 million, thinking about Excalibur. Maybe.

Yes... I know, i've read the posts/forums that say "lolPLD, make an Epeo and go RUN /thread" Yeah, but... No. I concede RUN is better, but my PLD is already fairly well geared, and I just want to use it to get through monthly Ambus, and other mid-tier endgame events, to help me gear up my BLU and COR.

Currently rocking Brilliance from Sinster Reign (max augs) as my sword. Ochain/Aegis, Souveran +1 set, Suleyvia +1 set (working on +2), and some other shiny accessories.

Not a chance of working on Burtgang for a very long time (mid way doing Tizona for BLU).

So... excalibur worth it, or save the gil and just be a mid-way PLD for mid-way end-game?
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By soralin 2019-04-16 11:23:11
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It really depends on your Coalition progress.

If you havent even started on the journey of 6/6 legendary rank in the coalitions, its understandable.

But as someone that really wants to make paladin work, and gets by, but is now playing Run, I can tell you this.

There have been SO many parties looking for a tank, and they downright refused my Excalibur+Aegis+Ochain Master paladin, and took some half assed epeo Run instead.

I'd say a solid 30% of parties desperately shouting for a tank still turn their nose up at paladin, despite the fact it can tank the entire game. I've been dealing with this for like three years now.

Im not saying don't play paladin.

But I will say it costs easily twice as much gil to gear up paladin, and you'll get like half as many invites.

But it's still super fun to play, AND you can use Shining One which is hilariously fun to solo Job Points with (I have almost one shot an Apex bat, once! I got it down to 5%, felt exhilarating!)
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By soralin 2019-04-16 11:30:47
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As for REMA weapon choice.

I'd honestly recommend Moralltach as a 'budget' REMA choice, or Naegling. Sequence is okay too but not as great for tanking. It has /slightly/ better DPS, but Excalibur's 30 tic regen and 3 tic refresh is clutch.

Excalibur 119 III does beat Naegling, and once R15'd it is solid.

And of course without saying, Burtgang is the best tanking sword.

If you wanna be a career paladin, order of operations of swords you need are:

Naegling > Burtgang > Moralltach

You still want Moralltach for gearswapping to prevent HP bouncing if you truly want to be a top of the line paladin. But its your final item you get after everything else.

I'd prioritize my gear in the following order:

1. Ochain

2. Phalanx set

3. SIRD set

4. Aegis

5. Turtle Set

6. Hybrid DD set

7. Naegling

8. Shining One

9. Master the job using shining one crushing out Apex bats (super fast JP, you can check out my stream if you wanna see how it is)

10. Burtgang

11. Moralltach
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By Taint 2019-04-16 12:02:11
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Aegis plus turtle can effectively tank 99.9% of this game.

1. Aegis
2. Turtle 5/5 Bushin+1 is cheap and effective now.

After that you are min/maxing.

HP, FC, Emnity swaps would be next up.

DPS, SIRD to finish the job. Excalibur would fit into DPS.
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By soralin 2019-04-16 12:55:58
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As mentioned in previous times.

Turtle will only go so far.

But once your DPS are R15 REMA DDs, just pure turtling won't be enough to keep hate, especially if the mob has hate reset moves.

Id say Turtle paladin can maybe tank 75% of end game tops.

You just won't keep hate on the top 25% of stuff if you spend the whole fight whiffing and turtled.

However!

If you go instead with the magic burst nuking strat, you probably are fine. Magic burst nuking is MUCH easier to hold hate against and acts as an excellent bridge.

However again!

A capped haste min/maxxed DPS paladin can spam solo light skillchains out the whazzoo, so even for magic bursting, your end game plan eventually is to be the person opening skillchains for the magic bursters, for sure.

But you can get away with scholar skillchains until then.

So I will agree its an excellent bridge between casual Paladin and career paladin.

But be prepared to form your own parties, learn what skillchains a Scholar can open, etc etc.
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By soralin 2019-04-17 23:11:47
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/108sId92yPaJVXxyBYyl5ZFYlnz-_bRcvR8XdTUOf9Ww/edit?usp=sharing

Latest version of the Pld DPS Spreadsheet uploaded.

Supports Shining one, added Odyssean and Valorous gear (went with Acc/Att+15 as an 'average' roll on them for now, feel free to tweak to your liking)

Also fixed the WSD calc, it now properly only applies WSD to just the first hit of the WS.

The next goal will be adding Skillchain as an extra function, allowing you to include Skillchain dmg items as part of your DPS considerations. Since there's a good chance they are worth it at times.
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