Shiva.Onorgul said: »
See, I can pretend I'm yelling in text too!
I already answered the question, you're being obtuse. If you don't like my response then block me, your *** waiving is boring.
FL Bill Would Imprison TSs For Using Bathrooms
FL Bill Would Imprison TSs for Using Bathrooms
Stop being a *** ***!
See, I can pretend I'm yelling in text too!
I already answered the question, you're being obtuse. If you don't like my response then block me, your *** waiving is boring.
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
I have a ***, my chromosomes are XY, why would you change it to F on my passport just because I dress and act like a girl? Just why?
Jetackuu said: »
I already answered the question
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Jetackuu said: »
I already answered the question
so cool.
No, I did state as to why, you're just being obtuse.
I have no interest in babying you, just because you enjoy throwing a tantrum like a child.
Jetackuu said: »
Oooh, using words to make you sound smarter,
so cool.
so cool.
Jetackuu said: »
No, I did state as to why, you're just being obtuse.
Someone please link me any scientific proof (not biased hypothesis) showing that a "man" can, IN FACT, be trapped in a "woman's" body or any combination of the sorts. Show me the science. I have studied mental health disorders for years and worked with the dual diagnosis DD/MR field yet have never seen any scientific proof to sway me from factual human genetics in this regard. I just want to see the science people are basing their "factual" opinions on. Again, open to the idea, never seen the science. Enlighten me.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Oooh, using words to make you sound smarter,
so cool.
so cool.
Jetackuu said: »
No, I did state as to why, you're just being obtuse.
Jetackuu said: »
It was on the last page
Also, look up what if-then means.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Jetackuu said: »
It was on the last page
Also, look up what if-then means.
Yes, deflecting as usual.
Like I said, when you first asked that: you're being obtuse.
Let me get this right, you don't understand why it's a great harm to society to perpetuate fiction as reality?
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
If someone looks like a human but has gears under their skin, is it not causing them needless harm to force them to identify as robot or, indeed, cyborg? And why shouldn't they be extended the rights that are available to both humans and robots alike?
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Stepping out of our metaphor, where are these trans people demanding that we recognize them? The few trans people I've met want nothing more than to become indistinguishable. They only cry out for attention so that they don't get completely ignored.
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For instance, homeless shelters habitually segregate by sex. When faced with a transgender person, some of them have had serious issues figuring out where to house them and end up turning someone away to sleep and die on the streets. Actually, there's a lot of problems around helping out the homeless. Teenagers are regularly turned away, too, but that's a separate issue entirely.
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The battle for trans rights probably gets taken too far by some radicals, the same way women's rights has been co-opted into a hatred of all men, but that doesn't mean we roll back the clock or ignore the real issues being masked by hyperbole. If someone looks enough like a man and identifies as a man, why would you invite potential harm on him by saying his driver's license have Sex: F on it? I'm sure some loudmouths on forums spout off about wanting the world to see them in all their trans glory, but that's the nature of the internet. Surely you know how often people will say whatever will get them attention without concern to meaning or rationality. I mean, fonewear and ChaosX are right here in this thread as examples.
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If someone looks enough like a man and identifies as a man
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If your only objection is that you think SRS and even HRT are bad ju-ju, snake oil cures for a bigger underlying problem... well, fine, maybe they are. The data is far from incontrovertible at this point because it's scarce as snowmen in the desert. But wherein lies the harm letting someone with genitals that dangle, though that person looks like a woman, use a bathroom stall?
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I've yet to see a drag king try to use a urinal because, y'know, that just wouldn't happen (not least because trousers and vaginas do not mix when peeing standing up).
(Well, replace drag king with female.)
I understand where you're coming from, like I said there's no clear solution that doesn't result in someone somewhere eventually being made uncomfortable. I'd just rather side with biology than support a ridiculous entitlement movement.
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Because, remember, this is about public policy. Right now the public policy is irrational. If you oppose SRS and HRT, fine. If you think it's a paraphilia that someone wants to be seen as the opposite gender, fine (again, though, there's a LOT of paraphilias out there, so merely being a paraphilia is not a compelling argument). Public policy needs must be founded in seeking to alleviate or prevent harm. To my knowledge, no government agency has stepped in and said that someone undergoing elective SRS on their own money is unable to do so. Medicaid and Medicare deny seeking public funds for SRS, though, so that's right in line with what you want.
I'm just not seeing the basis for objection.
I'm just not seeing the basis for objection.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Indeed, a government-issued ID is used by the police. A transgender teen (bio male, dressed and acts female) was recently kidnapped in my city. The police wasted a lot of time trying to wrap their stupid little pig heads around the fact that, yes, the ABDUCTED TEENAGER still has a penis but looks credibly female. The cops literally could not grasp the idea of a biological male dressed in an anime maid's outfit. Had he been identified in official circles as "she," they would have gotten to work much faster. There's a lot of other really shitty stuff that the police did in this case, too, like pretending the teen wasn't kidnapped and held in captivity for 3 days, and the reasons for this point at the transgender nature of the victim. That kind of treatment, where one cannot rely on the police to do their job because of trivial data like wearing opposite-sexed clothing, is why this is important.
I can see how a female mark in the system would help police identify a female looking missing person. I can also see how it would allow them to skip over the possibility of testing their dna in the case of a rape case where semen was available.
One would hope that in the event of a serious event, police have the ability to judge situations beyond what papers hold. Personally, I see no reason that they shouldn't be described as a trans while still male on paper.
I thought that ugly orange Ascot was Fred's fetish.
I mean, he *looked* like he was into Daphne for a long time... but passed up so many opportunities. Almost all of them for the sake of his ascot.
I mean, he *looked* like he was into Daphne for a long time... but passed up so many opportunities. Almost all of them for the sake of his ascot.
[+]
My fetish is for Michelle Obama to (FBI is watching) never mind.
Hoe my garden.
Hoe my garden.
MLK's dream has come true:
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Nobody is dying over the bathroom issue
More to the point, if someone who looks like a man but is biologically female is forced to go into the women's room, do you not see the potential for harm, insofar as we retain gender-segregated public bathrooms?
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Here's the problem. How do you draw that line? Some might legitimately pass, some might be ambiguous enough not to be called out.
And I don't have a good answer. One MTF that I've met will never credibly pass as a woman (think Jeffrey Tambor's character in "Transparent") and I honestly don't know what to do about that. But there are people who can pass and, as I pointed out above, is it doing more harm to force them to identify opposite their appearance?
I've met a lot of people whose gender I can't identify by sight yet who are cisgendered. Indeed, as I've said, I've only actually met 2 people (maybe one or two more that I've forgotten) who are transgendered, but I run into people who are androgynous all the time. I know that cisgendered women who get mistaken for men and, even more so, cisgendered men who get mistaken for women really, really hate it. It makes them uncomfortable and insecure and frequently miserable.
Someone who can't pass for what they say they are... I can't come up with a no-harm solution. If they're going to insist on dressing in opposite-gendered clothing (and there's no reason one shouldn't be able to) while still clearly appearing their biological gender, I don't know what solution can be made when it comes to things like a government ID. A non-passing FTM might feel better with Sex: M on his ID, but if he is constantly addressed as "ma'am," it's cold comfort at best.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Given the choice of potentially inconveniencing the 0.3%(?) of the population that chose to make themselves more difficult to deal with and potentially inconveniencing the rest
Here's where the no-harm thing comes in. If you're depressed, suicidal, self-destructive, and possibly a danger to other people as well (rage problems resulting in assault are fairly common among those with mental conflict, whether it's a psychological disorder or a biological one), forcing you to continue in the same path that has created those problems is cruel and insane. It's like treating alcoholism with more alcohol.
How does it inconvenience me who is using the toilet, though? I pointed out that I get weirded out seeing drag queens using the urinal next to me. An FTM won't even attract my attention to notice they're doing that, assuming they can pass. If they can't pass... I can't think of a good solution. If it were me, I'd write a mandate that if you're transgender, you can use whichever bathroom you like so long as you go into a stall.
At this point in time, the only rational reason for having segregated bathrooms is because women can't use traditional urinals and urinals are both greener and a more effective use of space. So make one big bathroom where you go left to hit a bank of urinals and right to hit a bank of stalls. I've seen men's rooms in truck stops and similar that are already built like this. Granted, I'm a male, so if there's something additional that women need (do they get special bins for getting rid of a tampon in, for instance?), I'm sure there's some way to integrate that.
I have this feeling that a lot of people are thinking, "I don't want my kid to look at this woman and then see her pull a schlong out!" I'd rebut, "Why is your kid looking at strangers' genitals?" This, of course, assumes we're not talking about an exhibitionist who is a criminal regardless of where their genitals are shown.
"It's like treating alcoholism with more alcohol."
That's an idea that I shall partake in !
Being sober is for quitters and single mothers.
That's an idea that I shall partake in !
Being sober is for quitters and single mothers.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
One would hope that in the event of a serious event, police have the ability to judge situations beyond what papers hold. Personally, I see no reason that they shouldn't be described as a trans while still male on paper.
And we're the first city to make anti-discrimination laws regarding transgender people, so you'd really figure our cops would be better than this. If I told you my teenage son was missing and was wearing ballet slippers and a French maid's outfit while attending an anime convention, that should be the end of it. Whether he identifies as transgender or female is largely irrelevant when you have photographs of him taken earlier that same day.
So, yeah, if the police are going to be that rock-headed, I'd rather his ID said he was a girl. Again, that's what his abductor thought he was.
wearing ballet slippers and a French maid's outfit while attending an anime convention
Sounds like my ex wife.
Best way to stop a child abductor is to...not have kids.
Sounds like my ex wife.
Best way to stop a child abductor is to...not have kids.
Jetackuu said: »
Let me get this right, you don't understand why it's a great harm to society to perpetuate fiction as reality?
As I mentioned, it causes me more harm to state my weight (because most people don't grasp how dense my musculature is) than to claim something closer to how I appear. What societal harm is caused when a woman claims to be 34D and is merely a 34C? Most men wouldn't know the difference without checking her bra, anyhow, same as most women can't accurately gauge the size of men's anatomy. Revelation of measurable reality might cause a rift in one's relationship, but it's not going to make Wall Street boom nor bust.
We indulge harmless fictions all the time. In fact, we tend to get irritated when people do not. Christians don't agree with Muslims about the identity of god, but both sides habitually claim to agree for the sake of peace. Dragging them into a small room and saying, "You need to acknowledge that Christ-God and Allah are way different," is a recipe for hell.
What harm does it cause if my ID says I'm male and I appear male but my chromosomes are XX? At worst, it might interfere with my medical treatment in an emergency situation, but even that's a distinctly remote likelihood as any emergency treatment in which I couldn't speak is unlikely to involve hormones or genitals. But in that worst case, it's my life at stake, not society as a whole.
Jetackuu said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Jetackuu said: »
It was on the last page
Also, look up what if-then means.
Yes, deflecting as usual.
Like I said, when you first asked that: you're being obtuse.
Let me get this right, you don't understand why it's a great harm to society to perpetuate fiction as reality?
So you're telling me FFXI isn't real I don't want to live now !
Matter of a different interpretation there, and something that we're not going to agree on.
My favorite "harmless fiction" is Twilight New Moon. I hope a werewolf woman comes and sweeps me off my feet.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Nobody is dying over the bathroom issue
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More to the point, if someone who looks like a man but is biologically female is forced to go into the women's room, do you not see the potential for harm, insofar as we retain gender-segregated public bathrooms?
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GOOD POINT! It's about time one of you guys got there (I wasn't going to feed this one).
And I don't have a good answer. One MTF that I've met will never credibly pass as a woman (think Jeffrey Tambor's character in "Transparent") and I honestly don't know what to do about that. But there are people who can pass and, as I pointed out above, is it doing more harm to force them to identify opposite their appearance?
And I don't have a good answer. One MTF that I've met will never credibly pass as a woman (think Jeffrey Tambor's character in "Transparent") and I honestly don't know what to do about that. But there are people who can pass and, as I pointed out above, is it doing more harm to force them to identify opposite their appearance?
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I've met a lot of people whose gender I can't identify by sight yet who are cisgendered. Indeed, as I've said, I've only actually met 2 people (maybe one or two more that I've forgotten) who are transgendered, but I run into people who are androgynous all the time. I know that cisgendered women who get mistaken for men and, even more so, cisgendered men who get mistaken for women really, really hate it. It makes them uncomfortable and insecure and frequently miserable.
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Someone who can't pass for what they say they are... I can't come up with a no-harm solution. If they're going to insist on dressing in opposite-gendered clothing (and there's no reason one shouldn't be able to) while still clearly appearing their biological gender, I don't know what solution can be made when it comes to things like a government ID. A non-passing FTM might feel better with Sex: M on his ID, but if he is constantly addressed as "ma'am," it's cold comfort at best.
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Problem: is it choice? ...
If undertaken as an elective cosmetic process, the risks and social stigma should be well understood prior to beginning.
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How does it inconvenience me who is using the toilet, though? I pointed out that I get weirded out seeing drag queens using the urinal next to me. An FTM won't even attract my attention to notice they're doing that, assuming they can pass. If they can't pass... I can't think of a good solution. If it were me, I'd write a mandate that if you're transgender, you can use whichever bathroom you like so long as you go into a stall.
I have this feeling that a lot of people are thinking, "I don't want my kid to look at this woman and then see her pull a schlong out!" I'd rebut, "Why is your kid looking at strangers' genitals?" This, of course, assumes we're not talking about an exhibitionist who is a criminal regardless of where their genitals are shown.
I have this feeling that a lot of people are thinking, "I don't want my kid to look at this woman and then see her pull a schlong out!" I'd rebut, "Why is your kid looking at strangers' genitals?" This, of course, assumes we're not talking about an exhibitionist who is a criminal regardless of where their genitals are shown.
The gray area exists primarily with people who don't pass, true. It's unfortunate that a law like this would effect trans who look severely out of place in their biological restrooms. That said, I don't think it's quite enough to justify legislature based on humoring mental illness.
Jetackuu said: »
Matter of a different interpretation there, and something that we're not going to agree on.
I'm arguing tangible harm. You're arguing philosophical harm. Right?
I'll give you that: I'd far prefer a world where we rely on observable fact rather than convenient fictions. But that's philosophy and utopianism. Here in the real world, we can move towards utopia, but we've got reality to deal with in the meantime. And part of reality is that not everyone can handle life with the veils stripped away.
I can't handle Tuesday let alone vying for a utopian restroom situation.
Regardless of what anyone says, a horse doesn't suddenly become a cow because it thinks it is. A cat isn't a dog when it decides it wants to bark. And a dude isn't a chick because he thinks he should have been born one, or visa versa. Get over it people. Whether you THINK you are a guy or a girl, MALE AND FEMALE are biological terms that denote WHAT you are, not WHO you think you are. A guy who thinks he's a girl isn't a girl, he's just a dude in a dress. Get over it and move on.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
I've never met a cisgendered person who struck me as clearly opposite. Androgynous, sure, but that doesn't really raise the same concerns as a linebacker-looking fellow like this:
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Should a middle school girl be in the same locker room as a 'MTF' kid that's taken no hormone therapy, isn't undergoing SRS, and has an 80% chance of growing out of it in the next 10 years?
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Should a college woman, knowledgable of the rape culture, be forced to assume a vulnerable position while a MTF like the above pictured is in the room?
Moreover, we can't simply legislate on possibilities like that. As I stated a long ways back in this thread, African-Americans have higher rates of arrest and conviction per capita than caucasians. Do we use the possibility that a black person in a bathroom is more likely to commit a crime as justification for segregating them from the somewhat more law-abiding white folk? And even if we DO employ a methodology like that, transgender people don't show a propensity towards crime, but are regularly the victims, so, if anything, they're the ones who should get a special, safe bathroom (or locker room or whatever). Which is absurd.
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Matter of a different interpretation there, and something that we're not going to agree on.
I'm arguing tangible harm. You're arguing philosophical harm. Right?
I'll give you that: I'd far prefer a world where we rely on observable fact rather than convenient fictions. But that's philosophy and utopianism. Here in the real world, we can move towards utopia, but we've got reality to deal with in the meantime. And part of reality is that not everyone can handle life with the veils stripped away.
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