On Healing Hands - A Comprehensive WHM Guide (V2)

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On Healing Hands - A Comprehensive WHM Guide (V2)
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 Ramuh.Lorzy
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By Ramuh.Lorzy 2014-10-27 04:07:42
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regarding use of cure vi, i believe it casts slightly faster than cure v, making it acceptable imo for an emergency cure.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-27 04:37:53
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Ramuh.Lorzy said: »
regarding use of cure vi, i believe it casts slightly faster than cure v, making it acceptable imo for an emergency cure.
Interesting. To my surprise, this appears to be true. The cast time I mean.

While the BGwiki page had the cast time listed as 3.25 seconds, the windower resources indicate a 2 second cast time. As the resources are drawn directly from the game data, I'd go with them.

For reference, cure III~V are all 2.5 second cast times.

But with only a .5 second difference, you'd better be able to make the decision to use cure VI and execute it pretty damn fast if you actually want the cast time difference to count for anything.

EDIT: Actually... considering capped fastcast, you'd have a lot less than .5 sec to react.

2.5*0.2=0.5 cast time.
2*0.2=0.4 cast time.

Effectively, you have 0.1 sec to decide which cure to use. I don't think you can really see the shorter cast time as much of an advantage here. Just cast whatever you were already prepared to cast. starting the cast asap is going to be more important than which one you pick.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-27 13:30:35
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Effectively, you have 0.1 sec to decide which cure to use. I don't think you can really see the shorter cast time as much of an advantage here. Just cast whatever you were already prepared to cast. starting the cast asap is going to be more important than which one you pick.

Cure VI is pretty bad, it's one of the indicators of a horrible WHM. Anyone casting that will run out of MP, it's just so expensive.

Healing for 1200 HP with LA and Orison +2 pants.
227 *.9 = 205 - 60 = 145 MP per cast

Vs 1000 Cure V with the same setup.
135 * .9 = 122 - 50 = 72 MP per cast

Vs 850 Cure IV with same setup
88 * .9 = 80 - 42 = 38 MP per cast

Vs 600 Curaga III with same setup on three people
180 * .9 = 162 - 90 = 72 MP per cast

vs 1000 Curaga IV with same setup on three people
260 * .9 = 234 - 150 = 84 MP per cast

That's why it's never a good idea to use Cure VI. If you need multiple ST cures then alternate Cure IV and Cure V, if you need a third cure in such a short time then you should be thinking about using Curaga's instead since you obviously have multiple targets. I've witness's so many WHM's who's first cure is Cure VI for 1000HP, then later complain that they are almost out of MP halfway through the fight.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-27 13:57:46
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Why are you quoting me then saying that? Did it look like I was arguing for regular cure VI use?

The entire post was entirely in regards to a casting time comparison. Please don't take it as a statement of general efficiency.

And even then the general conclusion was that there wasn't any significant benefit even cast time wise to Cure VI.
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 Asura.Loire
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By Asura.Loire 2014-10-27 14:01:42
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Why are you quoting me then saying that? Did it look like I was arguing for regular cure VI use?

The entire post was entirely in regards to a casting time comparison. Please don't take it as a statement of general efficiency.

And even then the general conclusion was that there wasn't any significant benefit even cast time wise to Cure VI.
Cause cherry picking arguments that you can win.
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By FaeQueenCory 2014-10-27 14:04:35
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Gurls, calm yo ***.

Every good whm knows that C5 and C6 are emergency cures for when something happens (like Tidal Guillotine).
No one is arguing that those should ever be main-cures...

Just like no one is arguing that Curagas should be the main cure source of curing. (they pull SO much hate, I don't care if you have -50... or -100... idr if they upped -enmity or not.)

But it IS good to have such factoids in the main post/guide... because noobs need to learn about capping DDs off with C2s or C3s; the potency relation of cure potency, healing magic skill, and MND; the valuable (lazy) asset being /sch and regen4ga provides... etc.
I mean... isn't that the POINT of having a guide for a job??
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-27 14:19:14
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As far as I know, the gear enmity- cap is still -50. But due to tranquil heart, you can get another -25 at 500 healing skill, that's multiplicative, not additive though. So the total reduction comes to -62.5 enmity.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2014-10-27 14:40:16
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Obviously pretty minor, but a handful of hMP set tweaks:

*Orvail Corona+1 (hMP+4) beats refresh+1 from hairpin.

*Felicitas Cape +1 is new best in slot hMP back (hMP+5), replacing Vita Cape (+3).

*Oneiros Grip's (Refresh+1) over Aresian Grip's hMP+1 (at least under 76% for Oneiros latent)


I've actually used hMP set in some oddball situations lately (2boxing 1/1/1 skirmishes with a DD, for instance). Admittedly, I can afford the inventory hit since my WHM is a mage only and YMMV on whether it's worth carrying.

BTW, thanks for the updated guide - Your work is appreciated! :)
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-27 14:48:10
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Hate to say, But moonshade's refresh latent isn't active while resting.
 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2014-10-27 14:50:03
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How does any WHM run outta mp with two balls from ghorn?
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2014-10-27 14:50:17
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Hate to say, But moonshade's refresh latent isn't active while resting.

Doh. Thanks, edited :)
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2014-10-27 14:51:54
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Leviathan.Draylo said: »
How does any WHM run outta mp with two balls from ghorn?

Not having a BRD with you?

Like I edited into my above post, my WHM mule has seen some use out of hMP lately for goofball stuff like 2boxing Skirmishes. Plus, it's just funny to think of 2004 era exp parties, sitting between every pull... and now popping out 100+ MP on your first resting tick.
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-10-27 15:40:32
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Obviously pretty minor, but a handful of hMP set tweaks:

*Orvail Corona+1 (hMP+4) beats refresh+1 from hairpin.

*Felicitas Cape +1 is new best in slot hMP back (hMP+5), replacing Vita Cape (+3).

*Oneiros Grip's (Refresh+1) over Aresian Grip's hMP+1 (at least under 76% for Oneiros latent)


I've actually used hMP set in some oddball situations lately (2boxing 1/1/1 skirmishes with a DD, for instance). Admittedly, I can afford the inventory hit since my WHM is a mage only and YMMV on whether it's worth carrying.

BTW, thanks for the updated guide - Your work is appreciated! :)

The HMP set is more "here's whats available HMP wise" not a serious optimal mp per second while sitting set. 1 refresh ~ 3.5HMP approximately.

Thanks for the cape though and body, I knew there was a better body I just couldn't remember its name for the life of me!

Leviathan.Draylo said: »
How does any WHM run outta mp with two balls from ghorn?
7Sorry Draylo, not everyone runs with Ghorn brds and in all honesty if you are after a guide on WHM and you're "using starter set" I doubt you're running with relic/mythic holders in all instances.

The guide assume regular players with regular assistance, not Carn Ghorn 99 Duara BRD's.

Obviously if you play with those the entire games difficulty is floored and HMP sets become negligable as does using Orison Pantaloons over sif (would arguably allow Sif pants to be better asthe mp converted is no longer a concern) but you only really see a bonus with Cure5/6 for any increased cure potency.
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Quote:
Effectively, you have 0.1 sec to decide which cure to use. I don't think you can really see the shorter cast time as much of an advantage here. Just cast whatever you were already prepared to cast. starting the cast asap is going to be more important than which one you pick.

Cure VI is pretty bad, it's one of the indicators of a horrible WHM. Anyone casting that will run out of MP, it's just so expensive.

Healing for 1200 HP with LA and Orison +2 pants.
227 *.9 = 205 - 60 = 145 MP per cast

Vs 1000 Cure V with the same setup.
135 * .9 = 122 - 50 = 72 MP per cast

Vs 850 Cure IV with same setup
88 * .9 = 80 - 42 = 38 MP per cast

Vs 600 Curaga III with same setup on three people
180 * .9 = 162 - 90 = 72 MP per cast

vs 1000 Curaga IV with same setup on three people
260 * .9 = 234 - 150 = 84 MP per cast

That's why it's never a good idea to use Cure VI. If you need multiple ST cures then alternate Cure IV and Cure V, if you need a third cure in such a short time then you should be thinking about using Curaga's instead since you obviously have multiple targets. I've witness's so many WHM's who's first cure is Cure VI for 1000HP, then later complain that they are almost out of MP halfway through the fight.

While your maths is right, your cure targets are low. Cure 4 does more like 960 and cure 6 1400~1666 so the figures your posting are considerably different with good sets.

So Cure 6 is ~

1400 70 MP return~ 135 MP a cast (still a considerable difference of 6.8% MP which is a Sizable difference.
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-10-27 15:49:18
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
As far as I know, the gear enmity- cap is still -50. But due to tranquil heart, you can get another -25 at 500 healing skill, that's multiplicative, not additive though. So the total reduction comes to -62.5 enmity.

This is still correct.
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-10-27 16:14:16
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Ramuh.Lorzy said: »
regarding use of cure vi, i believe it casts slightly faster than cure v, making it acceptable imo for an emergency cure.

Interesting. To my surprise, this appears to be true. The cast time I mean.

While the BGwiki page had the cast time listed as 3.25 seconds, the windower resources indicate a 2 second cast time. As the resources are drawn directly from the game data, I'd go with them.

Casttimers on screen for recast using the recast plugin are not 100% accurate (Not sure where I read this but it shouldn't always be relied upon as accurate). However as you stated even if it does offer a lower cast time, it's such a small difference with a full 80% fastcast set you will never be able to process the difference in Cast speed in time metally.

Valefor.Prothescar said: »
also never use timer/recast/timestamp plugins to gauge recast times in these sorts of things, use the spell menu recast timer.


THAT SAID!

You could make gearswap change Cure 5 into Cure 6 if it's better to top your target off, Mote has done something similar with DNC Curing Waltz and Floor.math rules to work this out.

Personally I only use C6 for .. well nothing mainly because my normal cure sets do enough on C4 and 5 and I won't add such a rule as it could cause issues (I try to autonomy down where possible on gearswap spell cancels)
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-27 16:45:11
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Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Ramuh.Lorzy said: »
regarding use of cure vi, i believe it casts slightly faster than cure v, making it acceptable imo for an emergency cure.

Interesting. To my surprise, this appears to be true. The cast time I mean.

While the BGwiki page had the cast time listed as 3.25 seconds, the windower resources indicate a 2 second cast time. As the resources are drawn directly from the game data, I'd go with them.

Casttimers on screen for recast using the recast plugin are not 100% accurate (Not sure where I read this but it shouldn't always be relied upon as accurate). However as you stated even if it does offer a lower cast time, it's such a small difference with a full 80% fastcast set you will never be able to process the difference in Cast speed in time metally.

Valefor.Prothescar said: »
also never use timer/recast/timestamp plugins to gauge recast times in these sorts of things, use the spell menu recast timer.
Ummm. Cast times. As in the time required for the spell to resolve after you start casting it. Not Recast time. How would you even check casting time with Timers? Timers only displays Recasts and buff durations.
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-10-27 18:00:02
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Ramuh.Lorzy said: »
regarding use of cure vi, i believe it casts slightly faster than cure v, making it acceptable imo for an emergency cure.

Interesting. To my surprise, this appears to be true. The cast time I mean.

While the BGwiki page had the cast time listed as 3.25 seconds, the windower resources indicate a 2 second cast time. As the resources are drawn directly from the game data, I'd go with them.

Casttimers on screen for recast using the recast plugin are not 100% accurate (Not sure where I read this but it shouldn't always be relied upon as accurate). However as you stated even if it does offer a lower cast time, it's such a small difference with a full 80% fastcast set you will never be able to process the difference in Cast speed in time metally.

Valefor.Prothescar said: »
also never use timer/recast/timestamp plugins to gauge recast times in these sorts of things, use the spell menu recast timer.
Ummm. Cast times. As in the time required for the spell to resolve after you start casting it. Not Recast time. How would you even check casting time with Timers? Timers only displays Recasts and buff durations.

Think I may have missread your statement about what you used to check Casting Time... that's what you get for making a coffee, with a barking dog and trying to answer stuff in forums!

More meant that even if its is a faster cast it's near impossible (or takes a greater mind than mine) to process using cure 6 hp vs Cure 5 HP for a fastercast. I personally can't envision an instance where this would ever matter..
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-27 18:11:11
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Agreed. The infinitesimally lower cast time doesn't make a valid reason for using cure VI. Which was pretty much the point of the post.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-27 18:46:34
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Why are you quoting me then saying that? Did it look like I was arguing for regular cure VI use?

The entire post was entirely in regards to a casting time comparison. Please don't take it as a statement of general efficiency.

And even then the general conclusion was that there wasn't any significant benefit even cast time wise to Cure VI.

I was agreeing with you in how bad Cure VI was.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-27 18:51:41
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I was using realistic amounts of a slightly above average WHM. The problem with Cure VI is the WHM is actually healing 1600+ HP then your about to wipe anyway as they are letting the melee / tank get too low. At no time should a healer allow the melee's to get under 1200 HP, that is the point where overpowered TP moves combined with a double attack / critical hit can result in a DD being instantly killed, even in DT gear. Most people who would need a WHM healing would have between 2200 and 2400 HP so there is rarely if ever a reason to cure more then 1000~1100 or so. It's also why Curaga III / IV is so damn useful.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-27 19:04:53
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Leviathan.Draylo said: »
How does any WHM run outta mp with two balls from ghorn?

By using Cure V / VI / Curaga V spam vs Cure IV / V / Curaga III / IV. When someone's blowing 130+ MP on their cures that MP is going to evaporate within a minute or three, even worse if they don't have Orison +2 pants (good god the number of WHMs I see without these is frightening). Cure VI / Curaga V are things that shouldn't ever be cast (baring special advanced uses) WHM's cast about one cure every five to eight seconds in most fights.
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By Ramuh.Lorzy 2014-10-27 19:17:03
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Maybe a combination of having a different version of emergency cure, and the fact that i haven't played in over a year. Relevant content for me was raptor in morimar, so damage happened pretty quickly. i don't know that it's useful in much more than it was there, but i also would argue that if it is an emergency, your melee is low and may take damage again, a .1 second isn't worthless.

i did play with ghorns back then, for what it's worth. if there are no more relevant situations in which people come close to dying and can possibly take more than a cure v + cureskin worth of damage immediately after, then i guess it isn't worth using.
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-10-27 19:57:37
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Ramuh.Lorzy said: »
Maybe a combination of having a different version of emergency cure, and the fact that i haven't played in over a year. Relevant content for me was raptor in morimar, so damage happened pretty quickly. i don't know that it's useful in much more than it was there, but i also would argue that if it is an emergency, your melee is low and may take damage again, a .1 second isn't worthless.

i did play with ghorns back then, for what it's worth. if there are no more relevant situations in which people come close to dying and can possibly take more than a cure v + cureskin worth of damage immediately after, then i guess it isn't worth using.

It's worthless because if you are gong to cats Cure 6, you're going to cast it regardless, you won't be able to make that decision between 1k cure and 1400, see the Dd needs 1100 and do Cure 6 because it's faster than Cure5, the time it takes your brain to work it out, send that signal to your hands to then hit that macoro is going to take more than 0.1 seconds, hence the argument on its a negligable difference that you won't see.

if you are casting cure 6 anyways, then yeah it's nice, but it's hardly game breaking.
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 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2014-10-27 20:36:14
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I have never bothered to cast CureVI with my whm mule.

Even when i'm last resort+souleatering all the things (sometimes without prot/shell) on my Drk with reckless abandon I just have my whm throwing Cure V's at most.

If someone gets rocked for 1500ish damage and you throw them a Cure V, chances are you have to heal the same target again anyways because they are tanking and are already following up with a Cure IV immediately after the CureV goes off.

They could delete Cure VI from the game and it really wouldn't hurt WHMs.
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-10-27 20:47:12
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Valefor.Sapphire said: »
I have never bothered to cast CureVI with my whm mule.

Even when i'm last resort+souleatering all the things (sometimes without prot/shell) on my Drk with reckless abandon I just have my whm throwing Cure V's at most.

If someone gets rocked for 1500ish damage and you throw them a Cure V, chances are you have to heal the same target again anyways because they are tanking and are already following up with a Cure IV immediately after the CureV goes off.

They could delete Cure VI from the game and it really wouldn't hurt WHMs.

Let's not give SE ideas on how to improve WHM by removing spells.....
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2014-10-27 21:02:11
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Well I would have preferred CureVI be something like a cureIV + Regen IV in one single cast or something.

I'd really love to see more whm's using regen IV in their healing duties (i use it when i multibox or do roaming content like surge WoE), most WHM seem to act as if regen spells dont exist.
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-10-27 21:29:32
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Valefor.Sapphire said: »
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Well I would have preferred CureVI be something like a cureIV + Regen IV in one single cast or something.

Overcure, Cureskin. Curaga spam kill Regen's Usefulness in most situations.

That said I use it with accession and I can be lazy on certain things ~
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 Odin.Nikia
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By Odin.Nikia 2014-10-31 11:02:01
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Wanted to ask for a friend of mine that wants to get into Melee WHM some for solo JP and none endgame stuff.
I tried to start a set based off the set on the first page but I'm not WHM so no idea what is best, but this is what I have so far.
ItemSet 330288
No idea what best offhand would be for Yag, etc.
Thought to stack DW much as I can since he will most likely /nin, unless another sub is better.
Any help in finishing this set and maybe helping with WHM realmrazer set would be amazing.
Like always thank you for any help.
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By wormfeeder 2014-10-31 11:11:03
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Damn whoda thought my dnc could do better cures than whm. Cw3 does 600-700hp. Cw4 Does 1000-1100 and cw5 does 1250-1500 depending on the character I'm casting on.
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By Sylph.Scummy 2014-10-31 11:27:03
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wormfeeder said: »
Damn whoda thought my dnc could do better cures than whm. Cw3 does 600-700hp. Cw4 Does 1000-1100 and cw5 does 1250-1500 depending on the character I'm casting on.

Troll harder please.
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