Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

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2019-11-15
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Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:26:15
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Back to the point I was making: I would really like there to be a few fights, instances, whatever where DRG is clearly the optimal choice. When I have Chango WAR, Calad DRK etc then few opportunities present themselves to play DRG over them.

Something like make a mob that takes extreme breath damage but low physical and magical, but DRG can kill it through breaths! (oh wait, BLU would be better). I don't know, is it too much to ask for a niche for DRG when there is stuff for WAR SAM MNK?
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:29:54
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Asura.Geriond said: »
I'm talking about DDs dying, not the tank.

Situation 1: Tank, WAR, SAM
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to WAR and SAM, which then proceeds to kill the WAR and SAM with 3k WSs. You now have 2 dead DDs which have to wait for weakness and buffs before they can DD properly again.

Situation 2: Tank, WAR, DRG
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to the WAR, and then proceeds to kill the WAR with a 3k WS. The DRG never pulls hate and thus survives, giving it 3+ minutes of DPS the SAM in the other situation wouldn't have.

The more DRGs you have, the less DDs die on wave 3 to pulling hate on NMs, and this often happening several times in a run gives DRG a large advantage over the whole run.
This presumes that the mob would 100% always go for the second DD rather than back to the tank though. I don't think this is really the case. I don't really recall this ever being such a major issue though, but will openly admit to mostly doing Dyna with COR+RNG (the optimal jobs for definite Wave 3 boss clear, but quite slow generally).

Also I was referring to using High Jump tactically for the TP, not for the white damage.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:31:43
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DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
I'm talking about DDs dying, not the tank.

Situation 1: Tank, WAR, SAM
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to WAR and SAM, which then proceeds to kill the WAR and SAM with 3k WSs. You now have 2 dead DDs which have to wait for weakness and buffs before they can DD properly again.

Situation 2: Tank, WAR, DRG
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to the WAR, and then proceeds to kill the WAR with a 3k WS. The DRG never pulls hate and thus survives, giving it 3+ minutes of DPS the SAM in the other situation wouldn't have.

The more DRGs you have, the less DDs die on wave 3 to pulling hate on NMs, and this often happening several times in a run gives DRG a large advantage over the whole run.
This presumes that the mob would 100% always go for the second DD rather than back to the tank though. Even in capped hate situations I don't think this is really the case. I don't really recall this ever being such a major issue though, but will openly admit to mostly doing Dyna with COR+RNG (the optimal jobs for definite Wave 3 boss clear, but quite slow generally).
They DO 100% go for the 2nd DD rather than back to the tank, as that's how enmity works. The DDs surpass the tank on enmity significantly before they hit enmity cap, and since the 2nd DD still has more hate than the tank when the first DD dies, they go for the 2nd DD. The first DD dying doesn't give the tank any extra enmity or remove any enmity from the second DD.

DRGs shedding hate also allows them to avoid the enmity cap entirely on the wave 3 boss, so they're never targeted when the tank and other DDs cap hate and it starts spinning, meaning they never get sniped by an unlucky target change + WS.

Not taking hate is a big enough bonus that melee DDs generally come /drg for Wave 3 clears (even pre-patch), despite it nerfing their DPS for the whole run. DRG not only gets better versions innately, but can keep a good DD sub as well.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:33:10
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Asura.Veikur said: »
DirectX said: »
Also: Calm the *** down. You're acting like I've insulted your mother with the rage in your tone.
Nah, more flabbergasted at stupid of a comment that was.
I can see why you're angry from your profile. Single job only autistic people like you have always existed for all jobs. While I was a DRG first and it is still my favourite job, unlike you I will not pretend it is as desirable or optimal for as much specific content as SAM WAR DRK or MNK.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:35:33
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Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
I'm talking about DDs dying, not the tank.

Situation 1: Tank, WAR, SAM
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to WAR and SAM, which then proceeds to kill the WAR and SAM with 3k WSs. You now have 2 dead DDs which have to wait for weakness and buffs before they can DD properly again.

Situation 2: Tank, WAR, DRG
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to the WAR, and then proceeds to kill the WAR with a 3k WS. The DRG never pulls hate and thus survives, giving it 3+ minutes of DPS the SAM in the other situation wouldn't have.

The more DRGs you have, the less DDs die on wave 3 to pulling hate on NMs, and this often happening several times in a run gives DRG a large advantage over the whole run.
This presumes that the mob would 100% always go for the second DD rather than back to the tank though. Even in capped hate situations I don't think this is really the case. I don't really recall this ever being such a major issue though, but will openly admit to mostly doing Dyna with COR+RNG (the optimal jobs for definite Wave 3 boss clear, but quite slow generally).
They DO 100% go for the 2nd DD rather than back to the tank, as that's how enmity works. The DDs surpass the tank on enmity significantly before they hit enmity cap, and since the 2nd DD still has more hate than the tank when the first DD dies, they go for the 2nd DD. The first DD dying doesn't give the tank any extra enmity or remove any enmity from the second DD.

DRGs shedding hate also allows them to avoid the enmity cap entirely on the wave 3 boss, so they're never targeted when the tank and other DDs cap hate and it starts spinning, meaning they never get sniped by an unlucky target change + WS.
Hmm. I did edit my post before you replied because I realised it is most likely that the mob would turn to the other DD because the tank could only build so much hate in such a short time. I have seen single DDs die many times, but really very rarely 2+. Even so being able to farm, what, a few hundred more RP and a few items a run, isn't as much as I would like DRG to have to feel like it has as much utility as the other jobs.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:38:03
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Saving even a single death would give you enough time for several hundred more RP AND more cards for the alliance, and going DRG would likely save you more than one death like that. Back before I started going /drg, I usually died 2-3 times on Wave 3 on DRK (and me going /drg means I'd get outdamaged by a proper DRG post-patch), which gave me 10+ minutes of downtime AND weaker songs when I get back up when we're SVing.

That's a lot more significant than going the "optimal" job for omen letting you clear in 15 minutes instead of 16, and there are VERY few situations where picking one heavy DD or another is going to do more than make you win very slightly faster or slower.
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-02 18:39:39
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DirectX said: »
I will not pretend it is as desirable or optimal for as much specific content as SAM WAR DRK or MNK.
You're making those situations up in your head.

There are literally no situations where any of those jobs performs so well compared to the other that specifically basing your party/alliance composition around them isn't a waste of time.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:41:39
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Asura.Geriond said: »
That's a lot more significant than going the "optimal" job for omen letting you clear in 15 minutes instead of 16.
If using a DRG meant you had to use a PLD or RUN on Kin it would add quite a bit, but also for Gin I don't know how DRG would fare as sole DD/tank - someone feel free to make a video. Kei also, and Ou (for WAR only).

Is it not possible to full clear Dynamis with 18 people and 0 DRG anyway, though?
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:43:16
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Asura.Veikur said: »
DirectX said: »
I will not pretend it is as desirable or optimal for as much specific content as SAM WAR DRK or MNK.
You're making those situations up in your head.

There are literally no situations where any of those jobs performs so well compared to the other that specifically basing your party/alliance composition around them isn't a waste of time.
There are plenty. You just don't have the jobs, gear or game experience to be able to acknowledge them. Why don't you have a Trishula, anyway?
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:45:02
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DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
That's a lot more significant than going the "optimal" job for omen letting you clear in 15 minutes instead of 16.
If using a DRG meant you had to use a PLD or RUN it would add quite a bit, but also for Gin I don't know how DRG would fare as sole DD/tank - someone feel free to make a video. Kei also, and Ou (for WAR only).

Is it not possible to full clear Dynamis with 18 people and 0 DRG anyway, though?
DRG can solo tank and DD all of Omen (minus possibly Kei?) no problem. The DD jobs' DPS and survivability (minus shedding hate) are not very different on content at that level.

I've personally never heard of a full clear of all 3 waves without doing an AoE spam BLU setup, which often doesn't use any of the heavy DDs at all and very few groups can pull off. Even if it's possible using a normal DD setup, bringing DRGs over other jobs would make it much easier.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:46:56
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Asura.Geriond said: »
I've personally never heard of a full clear of all 3 waves without doing an AoE spam BLU setup, which often doesn't use any of the heavy DDs at all and very few groups can pull off.
How do they kill T3 boss? With the BLUs as melee DD?
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:48:01
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DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
I've personally never heard of a full clear of all 3 waves without doing an AoE spam BLU setup, which often doesn't use any of the heavy DDs at all and very few groups can pull off.
How do they kill T3 boss? With the BLUs as melee DD?
Yeah; they wipe out Wave 1/2 mobs so fast with giant amounts of AoE that they can afford to take noticeably longer to clear Wave 3 than with heavy DD setups.

Plus, they have CORs for buffs, and Leaden wrecks the wave 3 bosses just like it always does.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-12-02 20:01:21
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DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
That's a lot more significant than going the "optimal" job for omen letting you clear in 15 minutes instead of 16.
If using a DRG meant you had to use a PLD or RUN on Kin it would add quite a bit, but also for Gin I don't know how DRG would fare as sole DD/tank - someone feel free to make a video. Kei also, and Ou (for WAR only).

Is it not possible to full clear Dynamis with 18 people and 0 DRG anyway, though?
Why would using DRG on Kin suddenly require there to be a PLD or RUN? Any other job with DPS comparable to the DRG should suffice here. Actually, since it's DRG we're talking about the second job would only have to generate more enmity than the support, as the DRG could high jump/super jump Target off.

I don't have a video, but I clocked my last Gin dualbox at a about 6 minute kill, timed from engage, iirc. I can try to dig up logs or see if I have a parse saved if needed. The only thing about Gin to note is that you will want to have someone with an enmity action ready for right after Zero Hour so he doesn't run off after support. This isn't something DRG/SAM would have natively, but I was cataclysm cleaving the lower floors so I was DRG/WAR anyway. Just voked. Really I could have flashed on my GEO alt too.

I can't comment much on Ou. Haven't tried it on DRG.

Kei, though. Kei sucks on DRG. But that may be as much an issue of my trying to dualbox it as it is a job thing. It might go quite differently with good support. But trusts are dumb, and I don't have a real WHM, or BRD.

Support aside I do see DRG as being at a disadvantage on Kei for two main reasons.

Camlann's sucks. Even post DRG buff it sucks. And it's the closer for DRG's double light/radiance SC. Stardiver is so much more powerful, but SC dmg is really important on Kei, and dark SC get resisted a lot.

DRG is pretty good at multistepping. And even with the slow spikes messing with you, you can save a lot of SC with jumps. But camlann's is just bad. Which makes your SC bad. Sadly it was still better dmg than trying to use dark SC with stardiver.

And second. Magic evasion. DRG's meva gear blows. DRG has good DT hybrid gear, but it doesn't resist things for ***. Amnesia can really *** your day up on Kei. So can getting gravity'd right before fuller's goes off... And so on. I'm waiting for my Malignance type set for DRG SE... You screwed us on the SU3 sets, it's about time this gets fixed.

Maybe with full support in a 6man party this wouldn't be so much an issue. A real WHM's barfire, enough leeway for a geo to spare a vex, way overcapped magic haste from a real brd to deal with slow spikes, etc. I'm certain it can be done on DRG. and perhaps done well. (Allies roll would help a lot...) But I can't see DRG as being suited to that fight.

If anyone has had better experiences with Kei on DRG I'd like to hear about them.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-02 20:23:26
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DirectX said: »
2. DRG is currently still not desired or asked for as much as WAR DRK SAM in my experience, this can be validated through LS recruitment threads and FFXIAH shouts.

Shouts are literally the FFXI equivalent of a homeless meth-head outside of the gas station on a tirade about proper nutrition. It's the lowest of the low, and not what I base *reasonable* decisions on. Similarly, I don't care about LS recruitment threads. Most good LS aren't recruiting through forums in 2019, they're playing with people they've known for years, or perhaps getting new people who they run into in lower stakes events (say, some random Ambu shout). The ones who are asking for DRK/SAM/WAR only are the same people asking for R15 RMEA for a CP party or a N difficulty Ambuscade. Frankly, I don't care about their opinions.

Not like it hasn't already been beaten into the ground, but top tier DDs are interchangeable, despite what you want to argue or perhaps want to cite from mystery examples of misguided players. I play way more SAM than DRG, and I almost never run into situations where it's vital that I bring SAM as opposed to filling that slot with any other DD (despite you seeming to believe that the majority of current content has people salivating to grab a SAM but refusing others).

DRG has advantages any time you care more about enmity control, it has disadvantages any time you can't reliably keep the wyvern alive (this to me is a much bigger practical concern than some fiction of DRG not keeping up DPS-wise). But for the most part, it can do what DRK MNK WAR SAM (and usually THF DNC BLU NIN) can do.

I know you want to feel like a victim, and perhaps it's true that you won't get into garbage shout parties (and if so, what are you really missing out on?) - but I prefer to play with people who have half a clue, and those people don't seem to mind DRG. Just like most of the intelligent people here don't have any issue with it. I guess my advice would be to play with less trash players?
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-02 20:36:03
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DirectX said: »
You just don't have the jobs, gear or game experience to be able to acknowledge them. Why don't you have a Trishula, anyway?
Ok boomer???


Ragnarok.Martel said: »
If anyone has had better experiences with Kei on DRG I'd like to hear about them.
It isn't a solo DPS/tankless experience, but it was also pre-Ou.

RUN/DRG/DRG/GEO/BRD/Kupipi - With Jeanpaul and Braden.

We just did coordinated Double Lights. I was the weakest of the three of us, so I did filler Camlann's so Braden could do stronger Drakesbanes and Stardivers, JP would end with a 3000 TP Dimidiation.
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-12-02 21:52:25
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This dude is just playing dumb and trolling, lol.
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-12-02 22:17:58
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Asura.Veikur said: »
WAR - MS Zerging is barely stronger than Conduit Zerging and more gear/buff dependant. So that's.. not exactly a strong argument to be made for exclusively building around WAR. You'd also be missing out on Angon/Ageha if WAR is the exclusive melee DPS.

Kinda nit picky, WAR was the ~original~ stat reducing job.

-25% Defense
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Armor_Break

-25% Attack
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Weapon_Break

-40 Evasion (if a RDM's not around for whatever reason)
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Shield_Break

And all the above in one WS, though at half strength (-12.5% Attack and Defense, -20 Accuracy and Evasion)
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Full_Break

SAM's -25% Defense Down
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Tachi:_Ageha


I use these things religiously on Wave 3 champions because they save my ***. Sacrifice a little personal DPS to boost everyone else's DPS + Defense is worth it in my book. I kinda wish SE would update Full Break to apply the full amount of the lower WS's but /shrug nice things. WAR's kinda the "kitchen sink" DD, it can deal good damage with a variety of weapons and fighting styles.
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-12-02 22:27:11
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Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
That's a lot more significant than going the "optimal" job for omen letting you clear in 15 minutes instead of 16.
If using a DRG meant you had to use a PLD or RUN it would add quite a bit, but also for Gin I don't know how DRG would fare as sole DD/tank - someone feel free to make a video. Kei also, and Ou (for WAR only).

Is it not possible to full clear Dynamis with 18 people and 0 DRG anyway, though?
DRG can solo tank and DD all of Omen (minus possibly Kei?) no problem. The DD jobs' DPS and survivability (minus shedding hate) are not very different on content at that level.

I've personally never heard of a full clear of all 3 waves without doing an AoE spam BLU setup, which often doesn't use any of the heavy DDs at all and very few groups can pull off. Even if it's possible using a normal DD setup, bringing DRGs over other jobs would make it much easier.

Two "DD" parties with one "tank" party. One of the "DD" parties is actually the BLU party and they flip modes right before the wave 2 megaboss.

DD
DD
COR
BRD
GEO
WHM

BLU
BLU
COR
BRD
GEO
WHM < (I've done this on RDM before, it's hard but doable)

The BLU's start off in AoE cleave mode and one of the "tanks" is really just pulling massive hordes of mobs to the group where the BLU's burn it down. The heavy DD's are there for the red eye statue champ mobs as those die to SC's very easily. I often go as WAR with a COR sidekick, the other guy is a SAM or DRG. We've gotten to Wave 3 with an hour left before, enough time to start doing BRD rotations and burn through the fetters and the Wave 3 boss.

Hardest part really is the BRD rotations, lag can add seconds to a very tight timer, its one of those things that takes practice to squeeze all eight to twelve songs in. If a DD dies then it just got a helluva lot harder to maintain songs cause dummies need to be resung.

High Jump and Super Jump are OP a ***on Dynamis Wave 3.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 22:38:56
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Why would I feel like a victim when I have WAR DRK SAM MNK DRG COR all geared?

Capuchin's drivel is the epitome of what I mean when I contrast forum ranting with real in game.

Also lmao at RUN DRG DRG to do what many single DD (RUN included) can solo DD. Really shows how equal DRG is.

What a cesspit of hypocrisy.
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-03 05:13:08
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Props to solo DPS who were downing Kei pre-Bard buff, pre-Relic/AF+3 and before general obtainment of Omen drops.
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By Asura.Friedrik 2019-12-03 10:18:12
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DirectX said: »
Why would I feel like a victim when I have WAR DRK SAM MNK DRG COR all geared?

Capuchin's drivel is the epitome of what I mean when I contrast forum ranting with real in game.

Also lmao at RUN DRG DRG to do what many single DD (RUN included) can solo DD. Really shows how equal DRG is.

What a cesspit of hypocrisy.

You claim to have a geared out DRG and not to like forum ranting... so maybe you should just go play the job to see where it is now instead of ranting in the DRG thread.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 10:41:13
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I have played it since the patch, as previously mentioned. MNK got a better deal out of it by far which is what I was disappointed by.

I'm not the one presuming other people's situations here, or accusing them of "wanting to be a victim", or misquoting them, that is forum ranting, not simply posting on a forum.

The other really questionable thing here is people pretending that DRG was equal in DD pre-patch and then also saying DRG now does 25% more damage... meaning they believe it now does 125% the damage of other DDs. If that was true, everyone would be wanting DRG for everything. Evidently it is not both true that DRG was equal before the patch and that it now does 125% the damage it did before the patch. This is also the kind of *** that is disappointing to see people really deceive themselves into believing.

I would be very interested to here from Saevel how much more double-DD deaths his group experiences when using WAR SAM vs WAR DRG. That would be better than speculation also.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-03 10:42:51
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Unless I missed it, not a single person said that DRG was equal to other DDs in DPS pre-patch.

Prepatch: DRG did ~80% of a DRK/SAM/WAR
Post-patch: DRG got a ~25% increase in damage, so they now do roughly the same as a DRK/SAM/WAR
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 10:44:52
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
That's a lot more significant than going the "optimal" job for omen letting you clear in 15 minutes instead of 16.
If using a DRG meant you had to use a PLD or RUN on Kin it would add quite a bit, but also for Gin I don't know how DRG would fare as sole DD/tank - someone feel free to make a video. Kei also, and Ou (for WAR only).

Is it not possible to full clear Dynamis with 18 people and 0 DRG anyway, though?
Why would using DRG on Kin suddenly require there to be a PLD or RUN? Any other job with DPS comparable to the DRG should suffice here. Actually, since it's DRG we're talking about the second job would only have to generate more enmity than the support, as the DRG could high jump/super jump Target off.
I said if, because I am not sure how it would work very well really. WAR has voke, SAM has voke, DRK has Stun, Weaponbash, SE, etc to pull hate which makes it much easier to balance hate on whim if necessary. DRG has a jump every few minutes which is not really comparable. If using DRG it would probably make sense to use 2 so that they could help one another as necessary, however I still don't think it would be only a minute or two quicker than WAR WAR, or anywhere near as safe.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-03 10:45:55
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DD tanks do not use JAs or Spells for hate like that, as they don't generally have very good enmity sets and delays are long. They keep hate solely through damage, which DRG can do just fine.

There's a reason tanks have trouble keeping hate off of strong DDs, and it's because of DDs' damage, not their JAs or spells.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 10:52:01
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You have never needed to intentionally swap hate for Eleventh Dimension? You presume every single Kin fight ever without a dedicated tank has 2 perfectly equal DDs....
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-03 10:53:12
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Yeah, but enmity-gaining spells and JAs don't help DDs do that, and DRG is in a better position for that anyway because of High/Super Jump.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 10:56:57
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How does Provoke not help to swap hate, if required over doing more damage? The alternatives are to turn away or not WS, which also would limit damage the same as JA/casting if that is the reason you are citing long delays.

Also people kill Kin as WAR DRK in 4mins, what use is a JA on 3 minute delay in that case, really? Come on. Pretending DRG is optimal for Kin is just nonsense. Yes, it can be done with DRG, but as repeatedly stated; can be done with DRG =/= DRG is optimal which was my actual point, not that DRG cannot do [insert content].
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-03 10:58:10
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The person has too much hate is served best by just turning around and stopping all enmity generation, because that's what gets their enmity to fall the fastest (unless they're a DRG, at which point High/Super Jump help a ton).

The person with not enough hate is served best by continuing to DD as hard as they can, as that's what gets their enmity to rise the fastest.

Neither situation calls for using enmity-gaining JAs or spells.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 11:00:48
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You're assuming everyone knows what they're doing at all times etc. I have had to voke on WAR many times to turn hate (particularly with a PLD or RUN in pick ups I am not leading).

You're about to mention how situations which are not optimal (i.e. using a set tank or with people who don't know what they're doing) is not relevant, all while ignoring the fact that using DRG in any context is also not optimal for kill speed or safety. This is the crux of this discussion where hypocrisy is reigning.
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