1-5 + Tojil Failing

The parts highlighted in bold I strongly disagree with. From the top:

SCH does not need Apamajas II for any stunning these days, with alacrity and relic feet 99(aug) or above, stun timers are ~4s.
A note on SCH the only moves you need to stun before tojil are Raptor -Foul Breath (Which changes to Whirling Inferno @<50%)
Pieste - Mist (the rest of its moves can be annoying for the whm so stun more if you want)
Kurma - SCH nuke thunder 1 and dispel harden shell until 50% then focus on stunning tremor.

The next two bolded areas address the same point, removing the aura on tojil is the biggest pain in the ***. Batholithic Shell is annoying because DD have to turn until spikes are removed, Lahar can be a pain but inner strength helps the mnks through however, if you take the aura off and let volcanic stasis off then it can ruin the run. if mnks get all buffs dispelled during initial stage going from 100-75 could take far too long. This is only my experience, perhaps others do get on much better by removing aura...
Additionally I would not have the SCH nuke in between stuns. Tojil will TP every 8s with 3 DD on him, each of these tp potentially requiring a stun. 1s to cast stun (because of animation) 1s before you can use alacrity then a further 2 seconds to use and recover from alacrity, if your sch comfortably feels he can stun nuke and get alacrity back up every 8s then go for it, but as I said I wouldn't remove aura anyway.

What really made our runs go smoother (30mins down to 25) was taking a 7th on RDM. RDM preps mata impacts stuff, blinds pieste nukes/dispels kurma and pulls and silences Tojil. If you have a spare RDM friend then I would suggest giving it a go.
Also march march haste on the SCH is vitally important on Tojil and if the bard is caught between DD's shouting for songs and SCH needing them, my experience is they go for the DD first which lets them hit quicker for the 10s before they die to an unstunned TP move.

Because of this our group runs:
MNK/WAR MNK/WAR +otherDD (slashing or piercing) BRD WHM RDN (party1)
SCH/BLM BRD/whm (party 2) (SCH buffs have never dropped since)
No 119 relics for the DD, MNKS using oats or Tinhaspa usually WAR using AA GA.
*The SCH may also find it helpful to save rasa until they run out of strats so that they can continue fast stuns for much longer. Once again this is because I don't feel the DMG boost from embrava is better than the lack of stuns on last 30% of tojil.*


And on your last post:
You can comfortably clear the run in <30min killing the NM's 1 at at time.
As for adds for 1st 3 NM, brd sleeps them and warrior kills them while MNK's kill NM, for the T4/5 we do 1 MNK hold NM other guys get rid of adds. As for tojil our rdm pulls him with silence and deals with adds. (1 of the MNK voke him and bring him into tunnel)

* Sorry for the wall of text

Our sam get a prelude as 4th song on Tojil. This + yoshi's aftermath is enough for him to never miss. Namas does 12-15k during piercing phase. And sams can spam them like crazy.

But SAM + MNK + COR would work too, no doubt.

I have to say if you're having that many problems in Morimar for just the first 5 NM there's probably something wrong with what you're doing as individuals.


Prepping Mata while fighting eft/raptor is probably the easiest place to start and shave off time. It doesn't sound like you're missing any of the big pictures on any of the NM. Nothing special about the first three. Missing dispels on Kurma could be a problem; a lot of fights he just absolutely spams the hell out of it so it's important to be very regimented in removing it when you see the obvious animation, or chat log if you prefer, as well as reapplying melee songs.

Peiste can still be a *** to stun sometimes and if your SCH isn't too experienced with stunning, it can be a lot more difficult than it needs to be. Mists will get through from time to time, but he/she should be mindful to not waste Alacrity(if stuns are dependent on Alacrity) on something like Delta Thrust.

Again, I'd like to stress that you probably have a general "how you play" issue. Tojil has readily available stats on spreadsheets so DD should be planning their TP/WS sets around that given the buffs they know to expect(I personally leave off Soul Voice just because I'd rather be cautious, even though 99% of the time the boss falls over before a set of songs would be close to falling off). Make sure DD are getting proper BRD songs(you're applying the songs with proper bonus instrument and not your 3-harp) and WHM is keeping up haste/removing debuffs in a timely manner, BRD can also help with -na if you're willing to take the effort to watch when an ability gets off and know off the top of your head what to remove(also obviously communicate with your WHM if you're planning on doing this, and who you'd be watching for if they don't have a Yagrush).

DD need a basic understanding of DD at best. Know how to monitor simple JA timers like Berserk. TP/WS properly, with proper sets. Eat food. Reapply said food if the run lasts longer than the food duration. Get Ionis. For Tojil they should know when he is weak to their damage type and how to perform optimally during that HP window.

The point is that if he needs to shave off time by prepping mata while fighting eft/raptor, fat chances are they're going to spend too long on Tojil and hit stun wall.

I'm not saying you can't prep mata while doing eft/raptor though, it's just that the win rate of tojil pt is directly associate with your first 5 NM kill speed. A pt that can kill first 5 NM in 15 min has very high win rate, if it takes 25 min then the win rate drop. Barring silly mistakes or death, I've never seen a pt that needs 30+ min for first 5 NM manage to beat tojil.

You might need to recover after a wipe on Tojil, we're talking about first timers here, don't forget that. Saving some minutes could be vital to get their first win, so doing mata at the same time as raptor or eft is not a bad avice.

Rest has been said: regengaV eft, blind peiste, sing if kurma's a ***, etc.

Any self sustaining nuker can go in that 7th slot. I've found RDM, SCH and BLM to all be acceptable. Each additional person past 6 adds 5~6% HP so as long as that nuker can do 6% or more of damage on Tojil then they can't possibly make the fight take any longer. They can handle all the enfeebles and nukes are really helpful on Kurma and Tojil. Can even act as an additional stun to extend your SCH's stratagems if your all on some voice chat.


Switch the SCH and RDM then drop the 2nd BRD. That's a solid 6+1 setup that does wonders.

Unless they can get to tojil within 20min mark, they are probably screwed if they have to recover a wipe on tojil without a pld to zombie. If you get your samurai/other DD with twilight to zombie ti means he can't really help you kill due to weakened state, and you lose 1/3 of the dmg.

If they can get to tojil in 20min mark, they probably don't have the problem to begin with anyway (unless sch not being able to stun is the problem, which at their current state, it doesn't sound like it is.)

If T1-5 is taking you that long, you should really parse your DDs. The only reason it's taking long is your damage is lacking (assuming you are not getting lost in the zone or something). Is your acc capped? (should be since you say you're using ilvl 119 gear and morimar isn't an evasive zone, but it's worth a check) are your DDs hasted and marched at all times? Are they being sensible(like standing against a wall when you fight peiste so bind doesn't affect you much)?

Instead of taking a 7th as rdm/some other mage, you could consider taking a 4th DD and put the sch in it's own pt, get the bard to swap around for songs. (this obviously require people that can do rotations). That will boost your dmg output by 1/3 theoretically which should compensate the fact that your boss hp went up by a little (1/6).

There are plenty of ways you can optimise your run to shorten the run time, but if you're taking THAT long on T1-5 it's really pointing to your DPS output.

Remember that 4 DD makes Tojil TP every 6-7s and can put a strain on the SCH if the gear is not pretty good. Without the relic legs or when thunderstorm drops I have 8s recast on SCH w/alacrity and that's with 25~% gear haste and some fast cast so just be weary.

not really, tojil will always do TP move -> hit once -> TP move (or magic). The minimum window between TP moves is 11s, which is plenty for any sch with decent stun set.

I have never seen a reduction in mega boss TP moves in the move from 18man to 6man delve, but I always run with fast hitting DDs, the only time I can think of it not using TP move as soon as it can is when a DD isn't hitting it for whatever reason.

Sounds to me like you might need to gear differently if you need to alacrity at all for Tojil. Taking out alac also frees you up from worrying about not being able to stun > nuke > alac > stun, nuking can account for a good amount of damage or just push through magic phase fast.

If the DD's output is low then taking down aura may help your group, it's akin to getting a large attack buff (3-4 songs, no other buffer etc.). The TP moves Tojil has access to should be irrelevant.

Taking extra people also increases the HP on 1-5 remember, our 6man runs can reach Tojil in 12mins. Like Spira said, parse your DDs!

Can always try beading some of the NM's out, kill the boss for some better items, and then attempt 1-5 + Tojil.

For new groups, I'd highly recommend you on getting a 7th as a RDM or another SCH.
That will definitely ease stress off your mages.
Try to get mata going while you're doing the other NMs - there are many many ways to get this done, go with the method you're most comfortable with.

Your DD setup is fine. Non stop skill chains can significantly improve your overall DPS - have your SAM spam Fudos, MNK's Smites, DRG's Camlann's, that's none stop light skill chains. You'd be surprised in how quick these NMs melt. None of that 300tp > ws ***.

Have your SCH give your DDs Regen V on every NM you fight. His job isn't just to stun and look pretty.
Pieste - just have said SCH cast blind then CAMP mist, don't stun anything else.
Kurma - non stop skill chains again. Impact is great.

Tojil - All delve mega bosses have the exact same mechanics for TP moves. He will NEVER do back to back TP moves, it just won't happen.
The sequence is always TP move > normal attack > TP move > normal attack. There may be a spell in between the normal attacks, have your SCH stun the spells if he isn't silenced. His next move will be a normal attack, rest assured.
This is really where that said 7th can be a game changer.

Why do people want sch`s to have 8s recasts if the minimum needed is 11

you need faster recast timers for the lesser nms unless you're good at selective stunning, and bee.

also covers you for situations like if you missed a stun and stunned after the tp move, then your stun recast would be ready again for the next tp move too.

I've personally never heard about people wanting 8s recast. The requirement is usually "enough to get the work done", however fast that might be. I constantly roll with 9.5-10s recast due to bad marches or people not hasting me and it still works. I guess it gives you a slight buffer on that front too if you're geared well.

Sorry I don't have any recent examples but here is some I dug up from an old shark run. Can clearly see that there is 8s in first example and 7s in second. And no my filters are not usually like that battlemod crashed at the start of shark, this also forced us to animation stun as not all the tp names were coming up.

I will video a tojil tonight, if you are right and its 11s then I have nothing to worry about and wont need alacrity.

*edit* the image is http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/74205

None of your images are displaying properly.

try tinypic or something, it's pending approval and it might take forever depending on how busy are the mods

Or you could gear better differently anyway, stop relying on alacrity and it not matter whether it's 8,9 or 11 seconds "or when thunderstorm drops"!

Taking a RDM makes sense if they are outside the party as a nuker/dispeler only in my opinion. Dispels on Tojil are probably the second or third biggest reason for failure by any group. Dispels on Kurma (and erases from the WHM) are huge too.

Setup we normally use is MNK/RUNx2 DRG SCH WHM BRD. This is the setup we use for Morimar and Foret, we change one of the MNKs to SAM for Ceizak (because he has Yoichinoyumi). With MNK/RUNx2 + DRG Tojil is a about a 3 minute fight if done correctly. (remove aura each phase + proper dispels)

With this setup we clear Morimar 5 + Tojil in 19-22 minutes.

Quick tips:

Tojil uses Roar on pull and then every 25%, this move cannot be stunned. Blistering Roar gives him 2 major buffs; Magic def and def boost. These buffs can be dispeled, it just takes some spamming of Finale / Dispel to accomplish. His resistance bonuses reduce damage taken from respective types by about 50%.

His Aura can be removed pretty easily, and once it is removed that awful Attack down debuff goes with it. However, this changes the TP moves he uses. He will no longer use Lahar over 50% HP but Volcanic Stasis needs to be stunned, as well as Searing Serration as one is Full Dispel on players and they other one is massive damage + 4 stat down.

Kurma uses headbutt and stomp, whoever gets hit by these needs erase immediately. other than that he should just be dispelled every time he uses Harden Shell. If his shell is off, he seems to favor this over Tortoise Song, which means that buffs will stay up slightly longer if you remove Harden Shell each time he uses it.

For both of the above NMs, Twilight cloak (Impact), is extremely useful.

It seems that the original poster isn't having an issue with the first few NMs. Eft is just a zerg, keep him silenced/para'd. On low man raptor, just para and kill him, don't even worry about not Skill-chaining. Peiste, keep him blinded.


To everyone who keeps saying that DRG isn't as good as Samurai in Morimar..

1. Angon reduces Def by 25% resulting in roughly a 33% increase to damage dealt by ALL members of the party. You can maintain Angon 50% of the time you are fighting. This means that the run goes about 15% quicker than if you used SAM over DRG. (33% more damage 50% of the time + accounting for killing occasional adds)

2. With the above setup, and 1 mnk prepping mata.. first 2 NMs die in just over 3 minutes. Not each, 3 minutes total, to just the second MNK + DRG. Then you wait for Mata prep to finish.

3. DRG is useless for Matamata and is weak against Kurma.. but so is Samurai. This is where Angon becomes more important than anything SAM can offer. Angon on Kurma + proper dispels allows MNKs to do much more damage.

4. And my final point.. No SAM spamming Namas (which is rare anyway) is going to out-DD a good DRG during peircing phase using Fly high. While Namas might do 10-15k damage, with the above strat Stardiver does 10-13k and DRG can get off 5-6 of them in a 40 second time period by opening with WS or jumps + WS before popping Fly High. Peircing phase literally lasts 20-30 seconds with proper prep using DRG. I have yet to encounter a situation where Fly High does not last the entire Peircing and into the first few percent of slashing with a proper setup. And after that the DRG still has Spirit surge for 50-25% or 25%-0 depending on how fast you cleared peircing.



thats it.

ItemSet 323931

So from what i can see torque from meebles... Loq ear, but drop 12 macc, what would you recommend since i suck so bad need to gear differently?

*edit* inb4 vanir body

You don't need a rdm to dispel, sch or a well geared bard or both is sufficient. Yes sch has time to dispel between stuns if needed. RDM with the sole purpose of doing what a sch can do between stun sounds like a waste of spot to be to be honest, esp if the OP is struggling on the DPS front you're just adding extra HP to the boss.


You want to ensure the sch is top notch if you go for this route, and i'm not sure if OP who is struggling with T1-5 can ensure this. Becuase you end up losing dps due to getting your stats down and SV songs wiped prematurely.

It can be stunned, easily. The aura will be up regardless. Same goes to verve for shark (just harder to stun)


Not sure about this, I think how often he does tortoise song is pure luck. We always remove the shell at the first instance, and whether he do song or not is pretty random. I've also seen him do shell on top of a shell so I really can't say there is much correlation.



Drg with angon can only be justified if he can do a good dps output. I haven't played with a non mythic drg for a long time now but the parses of an upu drg tends to be at least 10% (if not more) behind oat mnks. Whereas a non mythic samurai can keep up with the oat mnks, or be slightly behind depending on the skill/gear of the player. Then again, comparing a mythic drg and a mythic sam, mythic sam still consistently outparse the drg.


I would never get a mnk to prep mata. it's a waste of DPS and you absolutely do not need any stuns for T2-3. Sch is the best person to prep mata. If you're killing both nms within 3 mins whirling inferno probably doesn't even happen, if it does, all you need is a whm who can sacrifice.

A samurai with yoichi can abuse 2 out of the 4 weak phases on tojil. being the SC master will allow more SCs to happen on kurma (I don't even see kurma being a problem nowadays with mnks on it). I don't really see how you would favour drg over a sam, unless he can parse exceptionally well. If given a sam and a drg and they parse similarly, then I'd agree drg may be better due to Angon. But I have never seen a samurai being outparsed by a drg of a similar calibre. So I'd only take a drg over a sam if i know the sam is gimp beyond repair :3

I usually roll with mnk sam drg or mnk mnk sam or mnk mnk drg with this zone. Bottom line is they all work provided they don't suck. It's lolTojil. But if you're struggling to clear T1-5, then maybe drg ISNT the answer unless drg can keep up with the parse of the mnks (or at least not be incredibly far away from it) - and a parse will be able to tell you this.

Firstly, if you're failing because of lack of dispels on Tojil then you should just get that additional RDM to replace your slacking SCH. Adding a job that isn't doing high amounts of damage isn't helping your group kill faster, get your SCH and BRD to dispel Kurma. I was told it's 65k hp per additional member.

Roar can be stunned fine, the aura part is what goes up anyway, not the buffs.

Not trying to nitpick but share my experiences; DD-wise, whilst your DRG may be winning during piercing phase, SAM with yoichi would be winning fulltime in a DRG vs SAM setup. I've gone as Ryu DRG and lost (but it was very close) to amano+yoichi in 18man, I imagine if our koga yoichi guy was present there would have been less competition.

I am all for including DRGs, everything else you listed is stella information and I'm jealous of you for getting to do delve with it! I haven't done it in the same setup you've used and it sounds really good speed-wise.


SCH reply: Why do you choose to not use the one piece that affects your recast timer the most out of any single item? You have plenty of macc, your reason listed at top of the page was that you don't need it for your recast timer and not that you needed the macc from something else. Meebles torque is obviously a better swap than changing earrings, but I'm sure you don't need help comparing gear. If you worry for maintaining macc then you could use aureole and orunmila's torque (9macc 5FC) rather than eddy and incantor (5macc 2FC).

Thats actually what I meant. Not that it can't be stunned. Thanks for clearing that up for people. Writing this at work so i'm trying to do it as fast as possible.

As for that first part, I was not saying that they should bring RDM as we certainly don't. That would just be the only situation to justify its presence.


It seems everyone who read my post skipped over the fact that I mentioned that we run that setup and clear the zone in 19-22 minutes with Tojil only lasting slightly over 3...

@flaming

I'm sorry, but not every SAM is going to have Yoichi or Amano and certainly not Koga. Relying on that strat would be shortsighted.

We run MNKx2 with Sparai and DRG with just Upukirex. On everything except Kurma and Matamata, DRG is right up there with MNKs. I'll have to post the parse for the next run we go on. MNKs and DRG are all within 1000 total damage on Tojil by the end.

We consistently do it under 20, with all the setups mentioned in the previous post. Without taking aura down (not with much reasons other than lazy to be honest and we take mnk/wars - but i';m sure the sch is very capable of taking the aura down if he isn't trying to break 40k dmg on parse nuking with the optimal element :P) It's not really saying much apart from bragging if you ask me.

If you can't assume every sam going to have yoichi then you can't assume every drg to have ryu. A non yoichi, non koga/amano sam still consistently outparse an upu drg from my experience. Of course experience varies depends on who you are comparing. And it can rarely be a fair comparison. So the best judgement is "is sam A better than drg B? if by a fair margin, sam A is better, otherwise take drg B --- heck just take mnk/drk/war/blah C if they both suck!"

Unless you have people coming with the best gear in slot according to spreadsheet for every situation, every judgement should be based on the circumstances.

You shouldn't be missing tremor. But yes you can barstonra for (150 min protection from the spell) and its a joke TP move.

NM's Most of the nms can be slept by BRD, sleep them, kill adds, then have all your dd's on the nm.

If you can show you're friends gearsets it would give a good idea what they're lacking or not.

ItemSet 323932
This is a Good SAM build and something closer to what the SAM should be using for TP.

When you say "when the whm lands silence" this is concerning because a half arsed Enfeebling set can be made in 5 minutes.

Here's mine
WHM Enfeebling.
ItemSet 320303

With that granted some of it is JSE +1 armors, and Lurid Mitts can be substituted with Gendewitha Gages for the Magic Accuracy.

3+ minute tojil with 3 DD isnt exactly brag-worthy to post twice lol

Takes us about 25 Minutes when we don't remove aura, probably less to do with kill-speed and more to do with us being impatient and aggroing every add possible.

and I'm not bragging about doing it in around 3 minutes. I mention it because earlier posts were mentioning having to clear it in around 8 minutes to be a good run.

Removing the aura is not necessary, but it is certainly fun.

As much as I like arguing, this isn't really helping the OP.

Can someone post a Video or MNK gearsets for his friends to take a look at and see if it's poor DPS?

Looking at it if the SCH is landing stuns reliably, and the WHM is okish ~ I would say it's down to poorly geared DD's.

I see your screenshot now. Poisonaga and dispelga are magic, not tp move :P I personally don't stun magic spells unless they are remotely threatening, anything that are remotely threatening either have long enough cast time for you to recover your stun recast, or long enouhg for you to pop a alacrity quickly before hand at the very least(this includes dispelga). So no, that doesn't prove that the MB do TP move <11s, because the ones in your screenshot arent TP moves.

lol who stuns Magic?

That said, anyone stunning on XBOX or Vanilla POL won't have Battlemod to give an extra second to see if its a TP move or Magic Move