"US Uses Rape As An Instrument Of War"

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"US uses Rape as an instrument of war"
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-20 14:18:14
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hmm, I sent a question to CBS news where they are supposedly from. I looked at the wikileaks cite but didn't download the full case, as I have no need to have the photos if they are there.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/US_Army_media_brief_for_rape_and_murder_of_14_year_old_Iraqi_girl_and_family_by_101st_soldiers,_2006

edit: but I did find places that say they were faked.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-06-20 14:56:50
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Except the topic at hand is not conquest. Iraq and Afghanistan are not the 51st and 52nd states nor are they even protectorates. War can have many purposes, conquest is rarely one.

There are only a few cultures were rape was used as a weapon, mostly in the African region.

What? War is rarely about conquest? Helluva leap there you just made and I sure hope you aren't seriously going to just leave that there.

Europeans and Asians have used rape as a weapon just as much as Africans have. Forgot about that little dustup called the "Rape of Nanking" hint hint? Or how about the Spanish Conquest of the Americas? They weren't called Conquistadors for nothing. Mexican American War? Spanish American War? Americas adventures in the Pacific? The British Empire? Cmon. Seriously?

Rape is about control. It asserts to the people who are being raped that the person doing the raping is in control. Fear is the desired result and destroying culture in order to assert your own. Rape is violent and sudden much like the destruction of cultures have been by invading forces and America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

Once you start applying superiority in any fashion, rape isn't far behind. That does not mean that everyone will partake in rape but the lowest common denominator up to their shoulders in blood and guts often

But yeah, only Africans have raped as a weapon. Yeah.........
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-06-20 14:57:32
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Lakshmi.Watusa said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
@Ophannus
These were pictures released during one of the wikileaks in 2009. You can find a variety of news sources for them.

4 year old story with fake pictures used to get a shock reaction. Close this thread.

Who cares if the pictures are faked? Does that somehow mean that some of our soldiers didn't partake in rape?
 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-20 15:12:55
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Lakshmi.Watusa said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
@Ophannus These were pictures released during one of the wikileaks in 2009. You can find a variety of news sources for them.
4 year old story with fake pictures used to get a shock reaction. Close this thread.
Who cares if the pictures are faked? Does that somehow mean that some of our soldiers didn't partake in rape?
It does matter that the pictures are faked... Certainly it isn't proof that such actions never took place but it's a false representation of what really happened in the situation they're describing... as a person who harps about responsible journalism in other threads you really are disregarding that in this one... fabrication of evidence is a problem even if the acts are going on...
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 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-20 15:18:33
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Except the topic at hand is not conquest. Iraq and Afghanistan are not the 51st and 52nd states nor are they even protectorates. War can have many purposes, conquest is rarely one. There are only a few cultures were rape was used as a weapon, mostly in the African region.
What? War is rarely about conquest? Helluva leap there you just made and I sure hope you aren't seriously going to just leave that there. Europeans and Asians have used rape as a weapon just as much as Africans have. Forgot about that little dustup called the "Rape of Nanking" hint hint? Or how about the Spanish Conquest of the Americas? They weren't called Conquistadors for nothing. Mexican American War? Spanish American War? Americas adventures in the Pacific? The British Empire? Cmon. Seriously? Rape is about control. It asserts to the people who are being raped that the person doing the raping is in control. Fear is the desired result and destroying culture in order to assert your own. Rape is violent and sudden much like the destruction of cultures have been by invading forces and America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Once you start applying superiority in any fashion, rape isn't far behind. That does not mean that everyone will partake in rape but the lowest common denominator up to their shoulders in blood and guts often But yeah, only Africans have raped as a weapon. Yeah.........
Conquest definitely has been the driving force behind wars in histroy but I believe he's talking more towards the more recent wars as it has begun to shift past conquest and more towards other motives...
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-06-20 15:20:25
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Siren.Flavin said: »
It does matter that the pictures are faked... Certainly it isn't proof that such actions never took place but it's a false representation of what really happened in the situation they're describing... as a person who harps about responsible journalism in other threads you really are disregarding that in this one... fabrication of evidence is a problem even if the acts are going on...

I didn't say Watusa exposing the pictures as being faked (from a porno no less) is irrelevant as it does take the 'oomph' out of the imagery but the way he dropped that is as if to say "nothing to see here, move on" rather than simply posting the truth and continuing the dialogue.

The event itself did happen even if the pictures linked were bogus afterall.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-06-20 15:27:15
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Siren.Flavin said: »
Conquest definitely has been the driving force behind wars in histroy but I believe he's talking more towards the more recent wars as it has begun to shift past conquest and more towards other motives...

Towards what motive? The game has changed from physical conquest to economic, political and social but at the end of the day it's still conquest - one group overcoming another and imposing rules and regulations many times against the will of the majority group. Some would debate that nothing at all has changed other than being a bit more cordial before bombing the ***out of a place and rolling in the tanks.

Instead of claiming a string of islands or a landmass and adding it to your empire you simply roll in, destroy the economy through sanctions, install a government favorable to your regime, siphon whatever resources you needed and threaten force if anyone disagrees with your plans. How is this any different from colonization? The country has its own flag and "leader"?
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 Lakshmi.Watusa
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By Lakshmi.Watusa 2013-06-20 15:28:25
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Lakshmi.Watusa said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
@Ophannus
These were pictures released during one of the wikileaks in 2009. You can find a variety of news sources for them.

4 year old story with fake pictures used to get a shock reaction. Close this thread.

Who cares if the pictures are faked? Does that somehow mean that some of our soldiers didn't partake in rape?


Ya bro that's exactly what I meant.
 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-06-20 15:32:56
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Except the topic at hand is not conquest. Iraq and Afghanistan are not the 51st and 52nd states nor are they even protectorates. War can have many purposes, conquest is rarely one.

There are only a few cultures were rape was used as a weapon, mostly in the African region.

What? War is rarely about conquest? Helluva leap there you just made and I sure hope you aren't seriously going to just leave that there.

Europeans and Asians have used rape as a weapon just as much as Africans have. Forgot about that little dustup called the "Rape of Nanking" hint hint? Or how about the Spanish Conquest of the Americas? They weren't called Conquistadors for nothing. Mexican American War? Spanish American War? Americas adventures in the Pacific? The British Empire? Cmon. Seriously?

Rape is about control. It asserts to the people who are being raped that the person doing the raping is in control. Fear is the desired result and destroying culture in order to assert your own. Rape is violent and sudden much like the destruction of cultures have been by invading forces and America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

Once you start applying superiority in any fashion, rape isn't far behind. That does not mean that everyone will partake in rape but the lowest common denominator up to their shoulders in blood and guts often

But yeah, only Africans have raped as a weapon. Yeah.........

Thank you!

I'm positive that we could come up with a few dozen examples throughout history! I'm kind of flabbergasted that someone would imply there's only a handful and the majority would be in Africa!

What I'm really fumbling with now is, is he actually Korean or is he a US citizen stationed in Korea?

How could someone with a proper education imply that Asia and the West are completely absolved of war-time atrocities, but "Ooooo~ Africa is so bad!"? That also speaks to a terrible level of denial of the aftermath of European Imperialization in Africa!

EDIT: And European Imperialization in India and Asia, if we really want to go into that too.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-06-20 15:41:36
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I hold Saevel to a higher standard because he claims to have been in the armed forces, should know these things having worn the uniform claiming to be a college graduate working a pretty decent job with subordinates which indicates being of some authority.

But...... its hard to contain my laughter when someone makes the claim that only Africa has used rape as a weapon. ***, Vietnam was just yesterday and we know how much controversy surrounded the actions of soldiers. Or how about the Korean War?

Or maybe thumb through the Bible and check out all the rape and pillaging sanctioned by the text as a weapon against people deemed inferior. Last I checked those events didn't happen on the African continent. Or lets go back to classical Greece and have a playdate with the Persians or have a toga party with the Romans. All of these empires used rape and slavery as tools to plow under the opposition.

***, lets not even talk about Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun.
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 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-06-20 15:48:46
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
***, lets not even talk about Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun.

LOL! That's where I was planning on going if need be! Also, Ottoman Empire, anyone?
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 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2013-06-20 16:04:09
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
***, lets not even talk about Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun.

LOL! That's where I was planning on going if need be! Also, Ottoman Empire, anyone?

I think that Saevel is trying to say that once upon a time, "soldiers" were commonly paid in rape-tokens, and said rape-tokens were different from using rape as a tool for dominating or conquering another culture.

Why he would argue that they were paid in rape-tokens is a different story, but we'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.
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 Carbuncle.Skulloneix
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2013-06-20 16:08:27
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
***, lets not even talk about Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun.

LOL! That's where I was planning on going if need be! Also, Ottoman Empire, anyone?
Relevant link
1 in 200 men direct decendants of Gengkis Khan
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 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-06-20 16:24:41
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
I think that Saevel is trying to say that once upon a time, "soldiers" were commonly paid in rape-tokens, and said rape-tokens were different from using rape as a tool for dominating or conquering another culture.

Why he would argue that they were paid in rape-tokens is a different story, but we'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.

I understood that, but he also overlooked...

Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
I'm not really resigning myself to the notion that this is just natural. I do wonder sometimes if it may be something primal and psychologically ingrained that is triggered. Not that it's an excuse by any means. Just a thought. Think of "conquest" in terms of pack animals, and historic conquests by breeding out your foe.

Then, I added...

Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Breeding, whether on a conscious or subconscious level, is and always has been a utilitarian part of war.

...following his blurb. Admittedly, I lost track when this...

Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
War can have many purposes, conquest is rarely one. There are only a few cultures were rape was used as a weapon, mostly in the African region.

...came barreling out of his fingertips.

Before all this, I was thinking about this more on the anthropological, psychological, and sociological level. That distracted me though.

Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Learning to understand relative context is a lost art during these days of politically charged emotional discourse.

So much for context and in-depth analysis, right?

/wink-wink, nudge-nudge
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-06-20 16:43:53
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Bahamut.Milamber said: »
I think that Saevel is trying to say that once upon a time, "soldiers" were commonly paid in rape-tokens, and said rape-tokens were different from using rape as a tool for dominating or conquering another culture.

Why he would argue that they were paid in rape-tokens is a different story, but we'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.

Except this doesn't make sense when put beside the "war is rarely about conquest" portion of the statement because that was often the entire purpose of engaging in military campaigns once you take defensive wars off the table.

The process of utilizing rape and pillaging is an ancillary part of the overall campaign of conquest, annexing territory, securing resources, subjugating rivals or assisting an ally against their enemies. Leadership wasn't going to have a problem with you spreading your seed amongst the invaded people because you were creating offspring that would one day possess the heritage of the invading people, intimidating their men and simultaneously destroying the people whom you've invaded.

Different cultures had their thoughts on this process and payment wasn't only in "rape tokens" or "women" as there were cultures that actually paid their soldiers wages or had religious reasons for becoming a part of a military campaign. War for sacrifices to the gods in Mesoamerica comes to mind.

Rape being utilized as a way of venting the sexual frustrations of men and as a stratagem used by leaders for unit cohesion. Of course there were other ways of going about this like homosexual relationships, young boys and prostitutes. The latter has been floated for dealing with our own military issues regarding sexual assaults but I doubt anyone will pick up that radioactive proposal.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-26 11:53:14
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Sorry lost track of the thread.

War is rarely about all out conquest. It's primarily used as a means to force another nation to bow to your will. You should study the history of wars, the vast majority of conflicts end in one side giving someone to the other during the eventual peace negotiations. This is done because a conquest between countries of comparable military capability is a disaster for both involved. Even if the aggressor nation subdues the defensive nation entirely, doing so would deplete much of the military strength of the aggressor nation and leave then vulnerable to aggression from a different nation. Thus they engage in a form of limited war where their only goal is to put the defensive nation into a position where they would then sue for peace and both sides would agree to peace terms.

The only times all out conquest has happened is when the aggressor nation has such a large military advantage that there is no perceived risk of hurting their defensive position. In that case they gain nothing from an eventual peace treaty. The history of War isn't limited to western civilization and their attempt to massacre native populations. One of the most profound texts on war wasn't written by a white person.

What exactly do you think the cold war was all about?
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-26 12:07:44
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Not so much "rape tokens" as "spoils of war". Please remember that we're primarily discussing some pretty dark times in human history. Women & children were considered property of the man they were attached to. This may rail against people's sensibilities, but it was the norm for most of human history. An invading Army often relied on raiding the local lands for supplies and well women were treated the same as all the other supplies.

This wasn't part of some grand strategy to breed more of your people or some other bullsh!t as those women often died. It was simply the result of viewing women as property and not as individual human beings. There was no moral qualms against an invading army stealing bread, rice, gold, and women.

Again people seriously need to stop thinking that modern views on humanity and individualism apply to the vast majority of human history. We were (still are) extremely ugly, brutal, aggressive and selfish creatures.
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