For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

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For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
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By SimonSes 2019-12-03 09:17:58
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DirectX said: »
If you think TH helps significantly (7-8 a run with TH2-4 and 10-12 with TH8) then you would, being consistent, surely believe that absolutely no TH is even less than 7-8 per run. Do you really believe that 0TH gives less than 7-8 a run on average? I have serious doubts about that, what do you think it would be? 5-6 a run?

This is ignoring data showing TH over 2 is 1% drop rate per level, which would mean TH8 should not be 150% the drops of TH2....

Im not saying you will get 5-6 per run, more like 3 10 5 8 4 9 6 5 5 or something like that.

You are welcome to prove me wrong. The difference between th4 and th8 is VERY noticeable for Swarts (whatever old tests would suggest).
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-12-03 09:45:26
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Of all the treasure hunter numbers being thrown around here this is the most useful piece of information anyone has presented.

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Since people are talking about data I'll go ahead and post this. I started keeping track of my omen farms a while back. Over the course of 80 omens my average is 13.1 detritus per run. My worst ever was 4 and my best was a shocking 26.

That is on THF, TP'ing in TH gear but not spending time trying to proc anything.


That's a sample size of 80 runs with a recorded average, low, and high. The fact that the low and high are so far apart is proof enough that we need large sample sizes to determine what an expected average drop rate would be at any given TH level. For all that it's worth, we still have no information on just how effective any given treasure hunter tier is at raising drop rates. We just know that "more TH is always better', but by how much.... that's never been answered. S-E refuses to tell us how treasure hunter potency works. And almost everything here is eyeballing and anecdotal.

"Higher TH value are better than lower ones and produce more drops over time" is the only official response S-E has ever given us, and that's only a slight paraphrase from their actual wording. Without large sample sizes you guys are just saying "TH 4 will average X because I think that's how it works or should work". We'd need actual sample collections like Theodren provided to determine an average TH 4 level. If someone wants to start collecting that info by all means, but without it this discussion is going to get sidetracked very quickly.
 
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By Ragnarok.Tdizzle 2019-12-03 10:14:43
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SimonSes said: »
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
To put it in perspective, when I originally soloed with melee I'd usually end with around 5-8 minutes on the clock, depending on how attentive I was. When I started running tauret instead of twashter and just evisceration spamming everything I'd save an exra 4-5 minutes or so.

You was slow with your melee then. When I melee I usually ends up with 20 min remaining. My best time was around 23min remaining.

That sounds about right for a decently fast melee method with no risk. My thief still needs cards so I was doing this last week every now and again and finishing with around 15mins remaining (so about 30mins total right?) I've only made about 5 attempts so I suspected it could be done a lot faster as you've shown you can.

So meleeing super safe can be done in about 25 or so mins and we dont have conclusive data on the AOE method timing in total, but sounds like it can save you 5-10mins with some more risk added and you can't AOE all the 3rd floor mobs due to resistances.

So to each their own. AOE sounds fun, but I do like just wrecking things too and busting out AE when I pull links but it's obviously quite safer to just melee all the things one by one or grab two or 3 via aggro or whatever to make less pulls and have auto target on for immediate target changes. At least that's how I ended up doing it without much refinement.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-12-03 10:37:41
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Of all the treasure hunter numbers being thrown around here this is the most useful piece of information anyone has presented.

Quote:
Since people are talking about data I'll go ahead and post this. I started keeping track of my omen farms a while back. Over the course of 80 omens my average is 13.1 detritus per run. My worst ever was 4 and my best was a shocking 26.

That is on THF, TP'ing in TH gear but not spending time trying to proc anything.


That's a sample size of 80 runs with a recorded average, low, and high. The fact that the low and high are so far apart is proof enough that we need large sample sizes to determine what an expected average drop rate would be at any given TH level. For all that it's worth, we still have no information on just how effective any given treasure hunter tier is at raising drop rates. We just know that "more TH is always better', but by how much.... that's never been answered. S-E refuses to tell us how treasure hunter potency works. And almost everything here is eyeballing and anecdotal.

"Higher TH value are better than lower ones and produce more drops over time" is the only official response S-E has ever given us, and that's only a slight paraphrase from their actual wording. Without large sample sizes you guys are just saying "TH 4 will average X because I think that's how it works or should work". We'd need actual sample collections like Theodren provided to determine an average TH 4 level. If someone wants to start collecting that info by all means, but without it this discussion is going to get sidetracked very quickly.

Out of curiosity, what is the median amount? Can you sort them and give us what #40 is?
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-12-03 11:38:53
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Out of curiosity, what is the median amount? Can you sort them and give us what #40 is?


Just making sure you didn't overlook it, but what I quoted was from a post Theodren made. He's the one that collected the 80 run sample size. I'd be curious to know the median as well though, just for numbers sake.

Quote:
That sounds about right for a decently fast melee method with no risk. My thief still needs cards so I was doing this last week every now and again and finishing with around 15mins remaining (so about 30mins total right?) I've only made about 5 attempts so I suspected it could be done a lot faster as you've shown you can.

So meleeing super safe can be done in about 25 or so mins and we dont have conclusive data on the AOE method timing in total, but sounds like it can save you 5-10mins with some more risk added and you can't AOE all the 3rd floor mobs due to resistances.

I think the fastest you'll clear the first two floors using a pure mellee method is around 6-7 minutes apiece, and with bigger pulls the AoE variant can probably clock in at 3-4 on them if you can handle really big pulls consistently (2-3 with the perfect dodge method if you don't miss any mobs like the one I had to go back for last night). It's only a difference of a few minutes per floor, but it is there. You still have the footwork running between camps regardless as well, and no matter what that's going to eat up a bit of time too. Also nobody's perfect and we all make mistakes, so regardless which method we do we'll have a small variance frm one run to the next. If nothing else, AoEing the first two floors and switching to standard melee should save a few minutes off the run. 5-10 feels like the potential difference though yes.

Its not a huge difference, but if it can be executed effeciently and consistently it does seem to be the best way to farm the crystals is to start off AoE and then switch to melee. Whether it's worth it is up to the individial. I just like doing new things, and after trying it I like the AoE method better. It's just more satisfying for me. I originally said there was little point in AoEing everything because our melee is so strong, and it really is only a few minutes difference, but the enjoyment factor is far higher and that's enough to make it worth it in my book.
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By SimonSes 2019-12-03 11:44:17
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Quote:
Out of curiosity, what is the median amount? Can you sort them and give us what #40 is?


Just making sure you didn't overlook it, but what I quoted was from a post Theodren made. He's the one that collected the 80 run sample size. I'd be curious to know the median as well though, just for numbers sake.

Quote:
That sounds about right for a decently fast melee method with no risk. My thief still needs cards so I was doing this last week every now and again and finishing with around 15mins remaining (so about 30mins total right?) I've only made about 5 attempts so I suspected it could be done a lot faster as you've shown you can.

So meleeing super safe can be done in about 25 or so mins and we dont have conclusive data on the AOE method timing in total, but sounds like it can save you 5-10mins with some more risk added and you can't AOE all the 3rd floor mobs due to resistances.

I think the fastest you'll clear the first two floors using a pure mellee method is around 6-7 minutes apiece, and with bigger pulls the AoE variant can probably clock in at 3-4 on them if you can handle really big pulls consistently (2-3 with the perfect dodge method if you don't miss any mobs like the one I had to go back for last night). It's only a difference of a few minutes per floor, but it is there. You still have the footwork running between camps regardless as well, and no matter what that's going to eat up a bit of time too. Also nobody's perfect and we all make mistakes, so regardless which method we do we'll have a small variance frm one run to the next. If nothing else, AoEing the first two floors and switching to standard melee should save a few minutes off the run. 5-10 feels like the potential difference though yes.

Also you get 50 minutes in the zone, not 45. 10 for the first two floors, and 30 for the final. If you end with 20 minutes on the clock the run took 30 minutes, not 25. I've done close to 30 minute runs with pure melee, and I feel like the AoE can do close to 22-25 minutes. Its not a huge difference, but if it can be executed effeciently and consistently it does seem to be the most effecient way to farm the crystals.

I think AoE can go down to ~15 minutes if you gonna play it risky. Melee to ~25.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-03 11:52:42
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Asura.Sechs said: »
SimonSes said: »
Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Healers and Dispellers.

Ajido, Yoran, Joachim, Koru, Qultada. I would probably send away Qultada after he gives you rolls, because he will be a mp sponge otherwise.
Tried it.
Kill took me a bit more than 8 min, but it was my first time, I sucked and my THF isn't exactely the best around (not job master either)

With this strat where you're not touching Lilith other than to apply TH8 at start, I feel like Ajido Marujido for Dispel is wasted. You don't really care for super speedy dispels anymore.

Then again I'm not sure what to put in his place. Maybe Ulmia? Joachim was giving me strange songs at times.
With 2x BRDs I would have more chances to always have at least 1 March up.
Or maybe a second whm for better Erases? /shrug


Really neat strat though, love it Simon, will take me a while to make it even more suited for myself, but it works!

Got it down to under 4 mins, noticed you kinda need 2x Healers though.
With only 1 healer I've won sometimes but I usually wipe.
I guess with better DT gear than mine maybe? I dunno.
My set isn't really that bad though eh


Atm I'm using Apururu, Ygnas, Koru-Moru, Joachim, Qultada. Calling Qultada last so he stays at ranged distance.
Qultada uses Chaos Roll and Evoker's, which helps keeping my MP up from spamming Absorb-TP and other spells for hate if need be when Collaborator isn't enough.
Yes, /DRK and using SimonSes's strategy.
Love this!

Sadly still no single drop after ~20 more runs using this strat, but hey, drops will come eventually! :D
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-12-03 12:03:39
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That's why I use Selh'teus honestly, second healer, and he'll also periodically top off your MP, which is really valuable.
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2019-12-03 12:15:11
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DirectX said: »
I meant on average, if that wasn't already very clear. You are welcome to prove you're right.

I mean if your gonna asking for data on something here's an idea

Again - Tons of runs on Run,mnk,war,dnc (th4) and I never once walked out with more then 12 Crystals an omen while majority of the time I am leaving with 5-6

thf I casually walk out with 10+ with the random 20+ a run

I don't get your fixation on this matter - Are you trying to say TH has no factor because it clearly does - But to each his own - Go spam on Blu and get those 8 a run my guy
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-03 12:16:43
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I only have about 20 runs as data, but my average with TH4 is ~9-10, and lows and highs of 6 and 16.
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By SimonSes 2019-12-03 12:25:42
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Yes, /DRK and using SimonSes's strategy.

I'm glad it works for you. I only used it couple of times before I finished WotG on alts, so now I simply kill her with Shijin>Vsmite>Vsmite while tagging TH8 from alt's Dia2 :P
 
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-03 12:38:55
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
That's why I use Selh'teus honestly, second healer, and he'll also periodically top off your MP, which is really valuable.
Doesn't selh'teus use his special move (Rejuvenation) only under specific conditions though?
Like he has to be within a certain amount of yalms from the current target, and more than one PT member has to be under a certain HP% threshold or something like that?

I find Selh'teus to work wonders in situations with AoE damage like Domain Invasion etc, but pretty lackluster otherwise :x
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-12-03 12:53:20
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That's kind of why he works here, she puts out quite a bit of AoE damage, so even if there is a tank trust, I'm still getting down enough where he uses Rejuvination repeatedly in the fight.

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Has 50 Regain. Uses unique weaponskill Rejuvenation in response to the player taking a hit that depletes them to at least yellow HP or when the player is asleep. Restores HP, MP, TP to the entire party. Used every 30 seconds.
Be aware that he will not move into range to engage in combat on his own; it is recommended to summon him early in your trust order to ensure he will be in range to attack.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-03 12:55:02
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Only problem is that he feeds a lot of TP if he's in range, because he never misses.
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2019-12-03 13:45:58
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DirectX said: »
Bismarck.Nickeny said: »
I don't get your fixation on this matter - Are you trying to say TH has no factor because it clearly does - But to each his own - Go spam on Blu and get those 8 a run my guy
Giving an anecdotal experience and then responding to posts directed at me is "fixation"? Ok bro.

I don't need to farm crystals manually, and my THFs are both 5/5 AF+3 so if I was going to I'd be using another job for the cards anyway to make it effective.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-12-03 16:13:15
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So here's a question. If I got weaponskill damage + 9% on my herculean boots but no other relevant stats just how close would that put it to lustratio +1 for rudra's storm? The difference in stats are

24 dex, 31 strength, 21 attack

vs.

9% weaponskill damage

I'm thinking the herc aug would still pull ahead, but that's a lot of dex/strength to give up and I know how heavily the secondary stat mods affect the formula. I also have 36 WSD and 30% crit attack bonus (job trait accounted for) in my rudra's set without accounting the legs into the equation. I'm actually having a difficult time figuring out which of the two is better here.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-12-03 16:18:36
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Generally, 5 DEX = 1 WSD on an 80% mod for a decked out DD, so 24 dex would be ~ 5% WSD. I'd guess at ~12 STR = 1 WSD being fairly close as a ratio as well. Since you're probably not getting WSD from set bonus presumably (Relic Legs), I'd say it would be very close. Honestly, I'd lead toward Lust if the only relevant stat is WSD strictly due to the acc/atk from Lustratio's STR.

Get any amount of acc or atk on the herc, I'd probably use it.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-12-03 16:29:33
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I was leaning toward the same conclusion. Had I seen some additional stats I'd be a lot more willing to go with the herculean, but rudra's has such large mods I think path D lustratio is still slightly better. I'm just shifting numbers in the equation around by lowering the base stats and increasing the multipliers. But since I already have a pretty significant amount of multipliers so losing that many stats may actually be detrimental.

Also I'm kind of disappointed right now. I never got Ferrourous Coffin or King of hearts in the alter ego extravaganza. I'm gonna have to wait until summer for another chance to get them. I never really paid that much attention to trust selection before. Most of them are interchangeable for my purposes up until now so I've just been using what I had. Pity that.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-12-03 16:38:22
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Do you have a mule, or run low man with other people? About the only reason I use Coffin is for Raise III after my brother's char dies.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-12-03 16:41:16
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Generally, 5 DEX = 1 WSD on an 80% mod for a decked out DD, so 24 dex would be ~ 5% WSD. I'd guess at ~12 STR = 1 WSD being fairly close as a ratio as well. Since you're probably not getting WSD from set bonus presumably (Relic Legs), I'd say it would be very close. Honestly, I'd lead toward Lust if the only relevant stat is WSD strictly due to the acc/atk from Lustratio's STR.

Get any amount of acc or atk on the herc, I'd probably use it.

Is that for THF specifically, or just any DD? Because to note, THF is one of the few DD's without 10% WSD pieces, so I'd argue we probably value WSD a tiny bit more than the jobs that have 2 JSE and a back with 10% WSD each.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-12-03 16:41:55
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It's relevent to the omen soloing thing we've been discussing. Simon pointed out that using melee whm trusts would make this so much easier to do because it keeps the mobs in one place. Koru and Apururu make things more difficult than they need to be.

And on the wsd note I have

10 from my cape
5 from epa ring
7 from meg gloves +2
2 from ishvara earring
6 from relic legs +3
6 from artifact hat +3

so 36 wsD total already and if stacked with sneak or trick attack I have

14 crit attack (job trait)
6 from yetshila
5 from relic vest +3
5 from artifact hat +3

so 30% crit damage, which multiplies separately from the wsd multiplier

the feet option has no other viable wsd or crit damage alternative. However, and this is a BIG however, with rudra's 80% dex mod and strong fTP scaling pumping up the dex and strength (I will never cap fSTR on relevant mobs) leads to a strong base for those heavy multipliers. That's why I'm reluctant to let my path D lustratio +1 go just yet. If I didn't already have such a strong set of wsd and cit multiplers it would be a much clearer choice to me.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-12-03 17:23:59
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It's going to be generally true for any WS with that big of a stat mod. You're right that THF has quite a bit less WSD, so it will skew it a bit in the favor of WSD. DEX is also not STR, so again, that would skew in WSD's favor. but generally, it's not going to change the ratio much. Maybe 6:1 or 7:1.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-12-03 17:31:47
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
It's going to be generally true for any WS with that big of a stat mod. You're right that THF has quite a bit less WSD, so it will skew it a bit in the favor of WSD. DEX is also not STR, so again, that would skew in WSD's favor. but generally, it's not going to change the ratio much. Maybe 6:1 or 7:1.

That ratio being based on STR is actually more significant for the ratio than WSD options, I'd wager. But you're right that it probably makes it more like 6-7:1 (I'd say closer to 7:1 for THF) That's good to know for myself as I just got a 7% WSD herc boots augment. So now I have 15 DEX/4WSD vs 7% WSD...lol
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By Sylph.Theodren 2019-12-03 19:06:44
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »

Out of curiosity, what is the median amount? Can you sort them and give us what #40 is?

Sure thing! I'm glad at least a few folks are finding my weird data collecting habit useful. The median value is 12, which is pretty much exactly what I would expect to see in a "typical" run.

Here's the full set of numbers.
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By SimonSes 2019-12-03 19:07:47
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
You're right that THF has quite a bit less WSD, so it will skew it a bit in the favor of WSD.

This is all countered by the very low base damage of daggers, which makes wsc more valuable than for something like 300dmg+ 2h weapon.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-12-03 19:33:53
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Quote:
This is all countered by the very low base damage of daggers, which makes wsc more valuable than for something like 300dmg+ 2h weapon.


Not just the wsc either. The fact that thief runs on dex means that I get full fSTR increases as well. My weaponskill set has + 354 dex on top of the crit and wsd mods, but only + 210 str. And that's with the lustratio feet +1. With herc I'd be down to only 179 str. If thief couldn't create such a significant base damage through wsc and fTP multipliers the followup crit and wsd wouldn't do nearly as much for rudras as it does.
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