The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Asura.Aburaage
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By Asura.Aburaage 2021-05-03 01:39:45
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yeah it was with TP bonus offhand, forgot to mention
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-05-03 06:46:57
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SimonSes said: »
99k on Apex was already easy with good set.

Not to mention, Apex Poxhounds have a slashing weakness, so hitting 99k is even easier in this case.
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2021-05-03 14:40:13
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Ur mom is a 99k poxhound.
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 Asura.Kitfoxtrot
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By Asura.Kitfoxtrot 2021-05-08 22:17:04
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pff ya apex old news... (kidding <3 aburrage!)

Ambuscade VD however? sup babes

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 Asura.Lamington
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By Asura.Lamington 2021-05-09 23:07:30
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Insane! Can I see your ws set so I know what to aim for?
 Asura.Leptwo
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By Asura.Leptwo 2021-05-10 10:42:43
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Hey guys,

Recently leveled NIN and started gearing it, and I'm working on my sets, I've been mostly reusing as much as I can from my RUN, COR and THF sets.
Outside of the sets at the top of this post and the Ninja 2021 sets, which apparently are both outdated, are there any updated sets available somewhere?

I'm mostly looking for tips on WS sets, especially a good Metsu set to work towards.
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2021-05-11 14:24:38
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Start with the sets you can get your hands on, even if they are outdated, still a good 90% improvement, get your JSEs capped. Work on further improvements from there.
 Quetzalcoatl.Khajit
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By Quetzalcoatl.Khajit 2021-05-11 18:06:07
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It's not that the sets are outdated. It's that nothing has changed for that long. Your only adjustments to make after looking at the guide are figuring out what mpaca's or Nyame gear fits in. Keep in mind that Mpaca has no ranged accuracy on it and therefore might actually slow you down via missing your shuriken tosses.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-19 17:10:35
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Anybody has updated hybrid WS sets with Nyame?
Like for instance I'm wonderingon Mochizuki Hatsuburi+3 vs Nyame B in the head slot, bet Nyame wins?
 Asura.Kaelann
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By Asura.Kaelann 2021-05-21 15:56:51
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I believe the ideal set is

ItemSet 379909

Mochi Head is slightly better. Perfect DM Herc beats Nyame Hands/Feet, if you're ever lucky enough to get them. Otherwise, Nyame B in those slots too.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-21 17:03:26
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You sure bout that?
If y ou're right it means INT+4/Mab+32 beats WSD+8% for Hybrid Weaponskill?

That's quite surprising, considering that WSD+8 is applied to both the physical and magical part of the WS, whereas Mab is applied only to the magical part. Whoaaa
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By SimonSes 2021-05-21 18:22:18
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Anybody has updated hybrid WS sets with Nyame?
Like for instance I'm wonderingon Mochizuki Hatsuburi+3 vs Nyame B in the head slot, bet Nyame wins?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wUZi-2l-CgbEQ7NfmqMHo0SFj8y_enCu39JWQt6nC4I/edit?usp=sharing

Asura.Sechs said: »
You sure bout that?
If y ou're right it means INT+4/Mab+32 beats WSD+8% for Hybrid Weaponskill?

That's quite surprising, considering that WSD+8 is applied to both the physical and magical part of the WS, whereas Mab is applied only to the magical part. Whoaaa

That's probably because WSD only applies to first hit of the WS for physical part, which is usually only 27-38% of whole physical part.
 Bismarck.Gippali
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2021-05-21 18:24:25
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Relic bonus grants WSD+5 from behind w/ Innin merits. So the Relic +3 should win in most situations if you can benefit from the bonus.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-05-21 18:51:43
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Was it not already established that wsd works on both "parts" of all hybrids, thats a big reason they're so strong.
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By Ruaumoko 2021-05-21 21:10:03
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Yeah cannot see anything beating Relic head with 5/5 Innin for Hybrids.
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By SimonSes 2021-05-22 03:30:31
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Ruaumoko said: »
Yeah cannot see anything beating Relic head with 5/5 Innin for Hybrids.

Doesn't need Innin. It still beats almost everything including NyameB even without Innin.
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 Asura.Kitfoxtrot
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By Asura.Kitfoxtrot 2021-05-23 16:06:25
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SimonSes said: »
Doesn't need Innin. It still beats almost everything including NyameB even without Innin.

^ relic head da winnar

also not a fan of tp bonus offhand, just giving up too much vs kunimitsu or even ambu katana. tp/ws wiffs, base dmg, along w/truckload of stats and roll w/fotia neck since difference is minimal and don't need to be 100% attack capped for bonus on fotia.

4/5 nyame ~r10+, maybe higher on legs would have to math it (vs relic). To beat that, the herc augs would have to be getting pretty ridiculous. The acc/attack/base stats along w/mattck was sorely needed vs what was available before.

Even r0 body I'd wager would beat most Oseem augs in actual scenario given how void of stats herc vest is.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-24 02:22:28
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Yeah of course with 5/5 merits, Innin up and positional requirement fulfilled there's no questioning it.

I was obviously talking about Relic+3 with default stats.
And I'm honestly very surprised INT+4/Mab+32 beat WSD+8%, considering the double impact WSD have on Hybrid WSs compared to other regular WSs.

I think Simon nailed it though, it probably has something to do with the fact these WSs are all at least 2 hits (3 for Chi).
If NIN were a singlewielding job and these WSs were all 1hit maybe WSD would've mattered more?

Nyame B would've needed "just" 9 more mab to surpass Mochizuki+3 btw, according to Simon's Spreadsheet.
Attack difference doesn't seem to matter instead (probably it's overcapped already)
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By SimonSes 2021-05-24 02:55:57
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Asura.Sechs said: »
And I'm honestly very surprised INT+4/Mab+32 beat WSD+8%

Relic+3 also has 5 more STR, which counts for both fSTR and STR WSC (30-40%) in all katana hybrid WSs.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Attack difference doesn't seem to matter instead (probably it's overcapped already)

You can manually change def in that sheet to simulate uncapped attack, but uncapped attack would futher push Relic+3 ahead, since it has more attack.
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2021-05-30 21:28:44
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Where should I look for some mostly-optimal WS sets? Does the "recent" thread hold good information or largely outdated?
 Bahamut.Atigeve
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By Bahamut.Atigeve 2021-05-30 23:18:09
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Going to ask this in the nin and mnk forums bc im very much trying to decide which I want to play around with, have aeonic for both, is mpaca better then kend NQ, cant afford the HQ right this moment, and am curious if mpaca is better then or at least comparable to nq kenda (mpaca is not augmented yet) (reposting here in nin forum to get opinions for both)
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-05-31 01:10:18
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Bahamut.Atigeve said: »
Going to ask this in the nin and mnk forums bc im very much trying to decide which I want to play around with, have aeonic for both, is mpaca better then kend NQ, cant afford the HQ right this moment, and am curious if mpaca is better then or at least comparable to nq kenda (mpaca is not augmented yet) (reposting here in nin forum to get opinions for both)

Both sets are similar for many notable offensive DD stats - TA/Acc/crit rate. There are differences that are somewhat situational though:

Offensively:
Mpaca has higher atk, and that's also the most notable improvement by further augmenting the gear. Situationally, maybe that's relevant for you, maybe not... depends on buffs/target, but on high end content I don't assume capped atk unless buffed to the moon (and maybe Bolster/Soul Voice).

But for NIN, Kendatsuba has some advantages:
- Much higher Racc helps NIN TP generation via Daken.
- Most Kendatsuba pieces have significantly higher DEX than their Mpaca counterparts, which is nice for Blade: Shun (Kendatsuba is one of the top couple options in pretty much all slots), and of course also helps Acc generally. However, if significantly undercapped on attack, which is where you may be more likely to rely on Shun... Mpaca may largely make that damage difference up thanks to its higher attack.

For MNK, the above two points don't matter much, so Mpaca brings more to the table:
- Higher STR, which is particularly nice paired with TA/Crit for Victory Smite (STR is nice, but not nearly as important for NIN as it is for MNK).
- Higher atk, as previously noted

Honestly, from a pure offensive standpoint, I'd prob lean Kendatsuba for Ninja, but Mpaca for MNK.

Defensively:
Kendatsuba has significantly better Meva... but I'd go for Mpaca here as a default, since it has significantly better DEF, PDT-, Magic Def Bonus, and Evasion. However, in either case, Malignance is the superior defensive set... so this is more a matter of how protected you are in your standard offensive-leaning TP gear, versus your most cautious set (which should still be Malignance).

Even if there was a fight where you really wanted high Meva thanks to nasty status effects or something, if that was a key concern I'd be in Malignance anyway.

So, for all purpose TP gear I'd prefer Mpaca defensively over Kendatsuba for either MNK or NIN. Ken isn't bad either though with Meva, and NIN does mitigate a lot of physical damage with shadows (whereas MNK eats more hits an maybe gets more out of Mpaca).

Other perks:
1) Relevant for solo/lowman fights against mobs with dangerous TP moves, Kendatsuba has lots of subtle blow so can really help make a good SB set. Both NIN and MNK are pretty good for that low TP feed style, MNK being even better with more SBII and Penance (but NIN having some better additional defensive tools in Utsusemi and Migawari, assuming those are effective against your target's moves). However, keep in mind that neither job needs a ton of SB in gear to hit Suble Blow I cap of 50% (MNK needs 15~25 depending on gifts, NIN needs 18~23 depending on SB merits and can get 10 from Myoshu: Ichi). Either job can cap SB I with NO SB gear, if getting Auspice from a WHM (+25 SB, assuming Empy+1 feet) though.

Note that Mpaca legs have SBII, the only piece aside from Su4/5 weapons that even has the stat for NIN. Much easier for MNK to get SBII gear: Sherida Earring (+5), Niqmaddu Ring (+5), and Moonbow Belt/+1 (+10/+15) being the other notable standard TP pieces.

2) Mpaca has the rather unique stat of Killer Effects+, which will help your with intimidation procs, special damage taken, and some damage dealt. [EDIT: see below]

Overall:
I'd say for MNK it's an easier call in favor of Mpaca. NIN it's harder, as both sets retain significant value so you kinda still want both.

One consideration, if you're strapped for gil, NQ Kendatsuba is the cheapest AND can be resold. So, maybe get the Mpaca set for its general utility for both jobs, Ken NQ for it's more NIN-specific use cases, and upgrade relevant Ken+1 pieces for NIN in time as you can afford them?
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-05-31 01:17:31
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Mpaca has the rather unique stat of Killer Effects+, which will help your with intimidation procs, special damage taken, and some damage dealt.

Has it actually been tested that the killer effects from Mpaca set actually gives the damage bonuses? Usually that's trait specific, and I was under the assumption the killer+% only affected the intimidation rates, similar to beastmaster merits. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-05-31 01:19:53
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Mpaca has the rather unique stat of Killer Effects+, which will help your with intimidation procs, special damage taken, and some damage dealt.

Has it actually been tested that the killer effects from Mpaca set actually gives the damage bonuses? Usually that's trait specific, and I was under the assumption the killer+% only affected the intimidation rates, similar to beastmaster merits. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Great question, and I'm not sure. So... that may be less of a factor for Mpaca! Would love to see confirmation either way, and thanks for calling that out.

Still kind of a cool perk to get Killer intimidation rates on MNK NIN gear though.
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By Siren.Kyte 2021-05-31 12:19:48
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Killer traits only function that way when using either the Founder's or BST AF3 bodies
 Asura.Kitfoxtrot
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By Asura.Kitfoxtrot 2021-05-31 14:27:02
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pretty easy test w/weapon bash- was hopeful when the set first came out to give ninja something extra but ya, it doesn't do anything for damage. Only founder's/bst gear currently
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By Bahamut.Atigeve 2021-05-31 14:57:01
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Bahamut.Atigeve said: »
Going to ask this in the nin and mnk forums bc im very much trying to decide which I want to play around with, have aeonic for both, is mpaca better then kend NQ, cant afford the HQ right this moment, and am curious if mpaca is better then or at least comparable to nq kenda (mpaca is not augmented yet) (reposting here in nin forum to get opinions for both)

Both sets are similar for many notable offensive DD stats - TA/Acc/crit rate. There are differences that are somewhat situational though:

Offensively:
Mpaca has higher atk, and that's also the most notable improvement by further augmenting the gear. Situationally, maybe that's relevant for you, maybe not... depends on buffs/target, but on high end content I don't assume capped atk unless buffed to the moon (and maybe Bolster/Soul Voice).

But for NIN, Kendatsuba has some advantages:
- Much higher Racc helps NIN TP generation via Daken.
- Most Kendatsuba pieces have significantly higher DEX than their Mpaca counterparts, which is nice for Blade: Shun (Kendatsuba is one of the top couple options in pretty much all slots), and of course also helps Acc generally. However, if significantly undercapped on attack, which is where you may be more likely to rely on Shun... Mpaca may largely make that damage difference up thanks to its higher attack.

For MNK, the above two points don't matter much, so Mpaca brings more to the table:
- Higher STR, which is particularly nice paired with TA/Crit for Victory Smite (STR is nice, but not nearly as important for NIN as it is for MNK).
- Higher atk, as previously noted

Honestly, from a pure offensive standpoint, I'd prob lean Kendatsuba for Ninja, but Mpaca for MNK.

Defensively:
Kendatsuba has significantly better Meva... but I'd go for Mpaca here as a default, since it has significantly better DEF, PDT-, Magic Def Bonus, and Evasion. However, in either case, Malignance is the superior defensive set... so this is more a matter of how protected you are in your standard offensive-leaning TP gear, versus your most cautious set (which should still be Malignance).

Even if there was a fight where you really wanted high Meva thanks to nasty status effects or something, if that was a key concern I'd be in Malignance anyway.

So, for all purpose TP gear I'd prefer Mpaca defensively over Kendatsuba for either MNK or NIN. Ken isn't bad either though with Meva, and NIN does mitigate a lot of physical damage with shadows (whereas MNK eats more hits an maybe gets more out of Mpaca).

Other perks:
1) Relevant for solo/lowman fights against mobs with dangerous TP moves, Kendatsuba has lots of subtle blow so can really help make a good SB set. Both NIN and MNK are pretty good for that low TP feed style, MNK being even better with more SBII and Penance (but NIN having some better additional defensive tools in Utsusemi and Migawari, assuming those are effective against your target's moves). However, keep in mind that neither job needs a ton of SB in gear to hit Suble Blow I cap of 50% (MNK needs 15~25 depending on gifts, NIN needs 18~23 depending on SB merits and can get 10 from Myoshu: Ichi). Either job can cap SB I with NO SB gear, if getting Auspice from a WHM (+25 SB, assuming Empy+1 feet) though.

Note that Mpaca legs have SBII, the only piece aside from Su4/5 weapons that even has the stat for NIN. Much easier for MNK to get SBII gear: Sherida Earring (+5), Niqmaddu Ring (+5), and Moonbow Belt/+1 (+10/+15) being the other notable standard TP pieces.

2) Mpaca has the rather unique stat of Killer Effects+, which will help your with intimidation procs, special damage taken, and some damage dealt. [EDIT: see below]

Overall:
I'd say for MNK it's an easier call in favor of Mpaca. NIN it's harder, as both sets retain significant value so you kinda still want both.

One consideration, if you're strapped for gil, NQ Kendatsuba is the cheapest AND can be resold. So, maybe get the Mpaca set for its general utility for both jobs, Ken NQ for it's more NIN-specific use cases, and upgrade relevant Ken+1 pieces for NIN in time as you can afford them?


Thanks Capuchin, yes I was asking as more of a starting off sort of thing to see, I am at a point where I want to gear and play jobs that I dont use much but have weapons for. Both mnk and nin seem fun to me, and I have heishi and godhands both so this is why i was asking. I appreciate this very well laid out response, thank you.

Temporarily strapped a bit yes, just AG'd Gastra from start to finish so this was helpful.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Avengers 2021-06-14 16:09:46
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Hey guys, I just finally got a Heishi Shorinken last night, first aeonic weapon as well. Is Blade: Ten still the go to weapon with this, and what would be the best off hand for it as well? I got a Kikoku and a Ternion Dagger +1, not sure if it's better to get a TP bonus Katana and go that route (is that even effective?).

Also, if using Heishi for the AM, what's the best Skill chain to use for it?

Thanks everyone.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-06-14 18:33:55
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Heishi WS... it depends.

1) If heavily buffed, Blade: Ten is usually a go-to for pure WS damage.

2) If getting weaker buffs, Blade: Shun tends to do better. And it's still not bad when getting some buffs, especially if it is better for SCs (which is often the case - for instance, if you're doing something where other people are using Savage Blade)

3) Heishi is also your go-to for hybrid WS (Teki/To/Chi). TP Bonus > MAB > WSD generally best for that. Hybrids can be your best damage by FAR, but also depend on (a) buffs and (b) mob not resisting magic (or the specific WS associated element). If you have a GEO in alliance doing Malaise bubble (as might be the case in, say, Dynamis and attempting to pump COR RNG magical WS damage) and mob that is neutral or weak to your WS element, and some in party attack buffs = you're probably in a good scenario for hybrid WS.


For offhands:
- Ternion +1 and Gleti's Knife (Odyssey) are both excellent for physical damage. Either are very good, and they're relatively close in DPS. In general, for uncapped Atk: Gleti's R30 > Ternion +1 R15 > Gleti's R0. If capping attack, downgrade Gleti's a bit (since one of its main differences from Ternion is more Atk). Other relevant differences would be Ternion lower delay and WSD+5%, and minor edge in overall accuracy (since the higher "Acccuracy+" stat helps both main and offhand), and Gleti's having some edges in higher TA, crit rate, DEX, and higher DMG (fairly minor impact for an offhand).

- If doing a significant amount of nuking/magic bursting, Kunimitsu (Odyssey katana) probably pulls ahead. If you don't have that and want to nuke a lot, Ambuscade weapons are great (I'd go either Tauret or Gokotai - Naegling is fine too with same magic stats, but higher delay).

- Never use any NIN RMEA as an offhand, they all fall behind other options without their respective MH-specific perks.

- I've never found Heishi/Hitaki (TP Bonus) to perform well enough to justify using it. Hitaki does a little better as an offhand to a Naegling MH using Savage Blade, or Nagi/Hitaki spamming Ten. Pretty much comes down to Heishi+Moonshade having enough TP Bonus already to hit the sweet spot on damage based on TP anchor points on relevant WS (and target using WS at 1250TP + 750 TP bonus). Realistically, you tend to waste too much TP for not enough additional damage if using 1000tp+ offhand. A significant issue for a job like NIN that swings so fast with a lot of multi-attack gear, you'll often WS at a less "optimal" amount of TP, and Hitaki suffers a bit due to that. Hitaki is also poor if you're hurting for accuracy, as is the case for any DW job using pre-ilevel TP Bonus offhands.


For hybrid WS offhand, I'd be interested to see what others have to say. Kunimitsu should be ideal, but lacking that I'm not entirely sure of relative performance between the main options of Ternion, Malevolence(?), Hitaki. As someone who doesn't yet have Kunimitsu or augments on Gleti's, I tend to just use Ternion as my default offhand for most situations - regardless of mainhand.
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