The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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By eeternal 2020-06-28 08:51:47
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
SimonSes said: »
Also Fudo Masa path B would probably also beat Nagi.

This is a really good point, and one I hadn't thought of a ton. Besides what Simon mentioned, the huge Acc on the weapon (which applies to both hands) really helps your offhand Hitaki TP generation. I'd think FudoB/Hitaki probably beats Heishi/Hitaki in most practical Ten-spam applications due to the faster TP generation.

Finishing a Fudo B is my current project (rank 20/25 now), and I'm excited to play with it more. I started it more for the purpose of low TP feed lowman situations thanks to being able to do good damage along with capped SB+75, but the Ten-spam potential is is a good additional consideration.

Would love to see how fudo B compares with Nagi, I might just as well get it instead of mythic if its close
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By Sylph.Excalin 2020-06-28 12:49:29
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Phoenix.Logical said: »
Going to be difficult to make a spreadsheet for it without stats like Magic Evasion of the mob your fighting, are you including that?

It is just a basic tool with the equation fleshed out as much as I can get it.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Ninjutsu

I basically took he Laeden Salute Calculator and turned it into Ninjitsu Damage Calculator.

I am sure I could add something for Evasion if I had more understanding of the specifics, but it isn't needed to complete what I am trying to do.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-06-28 15:59:30
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eeternal said: »
Would love to see how fudo B compares with Nagi, I might just as well get it instead of mythic if its close

I'm sure it will at least be close, and Fudo B is probably more flexible, plus has no need to maintain Mythic AM. The key additional use cases are:
* Fudo (any path) doubles as an excellent high acc offhand (even compared to Gokotai, which isn't bad, Fudo has an Acc+16 advantage and up to approx 100 attack from shadows that apply to your offhand)
* Fudo B is the only Subtle Blow II item NIN can use (aside from Domain Invasion only gear), so can be helpful for a low TP feed fight with SB+75.

Fudo B mainhand also has Acc+50 that also applies to offhand, which is helpful for some applications like non-ilevel TP Bonus katana. Though, to be fair, Nagi's R15 Acc+30 augment does extend to offhand as well.

I want to wrap up my Fudo B augments (R20 now, a few more Dyna farm sessions to go) and go do some actual parsing in controlled conditions to get some good comparisons. Will share what I find when I'm able to do that: I expect it's going to be fairly close between mainhand Nagi R15 and Fudo B R25 though.
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-29 19:58:21
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Been asked a lot for this one over the last few months. Was finally it's turn, Elite Blade: Metsu gearsets video is out.

YouTube Video Placeholder
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-06-29 20:42:32
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Interesting. I always had Jokusha Haidate in the legs slot given the huge amounts of dex. I'm suprised the relic+3 legs would have been so much better than those, especially in an attack cap situation. Also never paid any attention to Jovian Feet.
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-29 20:49:03
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Interesting. I always had Jokusha Haidate in the legs slot given the huge amounts of dex. I'm suprised the relic+3 legs would have been so much better than those, especially in an attack cap situation. Also never paid any attention to Jovian Feet.

I also was very surprised by many of the things that ended up coming to the top here. STR and Attack played a way bigger role then I ever gave it credit for previously. I also hadn't seen just how powerful it got when buffed...this video was very interesting to make. It reminds me that I'm neglecting one of the best Ninja weaponskills... need to work it back into my play style!

Also, I have gotten in the habit of saving each setup as it's own Excel file for easy reference later. So if anyone ever wants to dissect the exact setups I'm referring to please let me know and I can upload them to Github for reference and tinkering.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-06-29 20:59:40
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Everyone automatically assumes str does nothing, like mobs don't have 500 vit or anything

always haste capped always attack capped always accuracy capped always fSTR overcapped and if something has Xa it will always proc 100% (in addition to never overtping, and never lagging)
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By Asura.Cicion 2020-06-29 21:34:17
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I know this is heresy to suggest but i wouldn't mind seeing Naegling dps being compared as well since its such a strong contender currently. Thanks for the informative videos regardless.
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-29 21:50:45
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Asura.Cicion said: »
I know this is heresy to suggest but i wouldn't mind seeing Naegling dps being compared as well since its such a strong contender currently. Thanks for the informative videos regardless.

I'll hopefully be working it in there at the end. Sadly the spreadsheet doesn't calculate swords so it's going to have to be off parsers and such but I've gotten quite a bit of questions on it and I myself am curious how it compares when this is all over.
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By Asura.Mewwgoat 2020-06-29 22:40:11
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im kinda shocked to hear fudo beats gotaki so much with the boost to wsd.
edit: and that relic +3 body is beat by a body
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-06-30 00:12:03
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Same reasons why Adhemar hands are BIS there, the MA makes a difference. Gere Ring for example, over Ilabrat
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By Bismarck.Lilmartio 2020-06-30 01:05:29
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I think you need to recheck your damage values, how does Kikoku deal more damage than Gokotai when spamming Blade: Ku? In my spreadsheet, Gokotai is far more superior.
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-06-30 01:22:18
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Agreed, something is off.
Even R15 Kikoku has 1 less base damage than Gokotai and no DEX+15 (secondary mod for Blade: Ku).
The difference is more around ~49 attack more on Kikoku (+30 attack, +19 skill) but even in seriously att starved scenarios I seriously doubt that alone can outbalance Ku damage +60% from Gokotai.
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By Bismarck.Lilmartio 2020-06-30 01:55:21
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Ah yes, I just downloaded the latest spreadsheet (main page) and it seems Langly (or whoever edits the spreadsheets) forgot to include Gokotai's 60% damage to Ku. Same goes for Kamu, there is no mythic bonus or augment bonus (I don't see them under the Data tab at D278 or D279, unless Langly (or whoever) put them somewhere else). Please check your spreadsheet folks.
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By SimonSes 2020-06-30 05:58:04
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Bismarck.Lilmartio said: »
Ah yes, I just downloaded the latest spreadsheet (main page) and it seems Langly (or whoever edits the spreadsheets) forgot to include Gokotai's 60% damage to Ku. Same goes for Kamu, there is no mythic bonus or augment bonus (I don't see them under the Data tab at D278 or D279, unless Langly (or whoever) put them somewhere else). Please check your spreadsheet folks.

Blade: Ku with Gokotai is obviously not only much stronger with Gokotai, but is actually competitive (or almost competitive) with Metsu from Kikoku.

Considering you can wear 103 Dual Wield (maybe its capped tho) in idle for Gokotai to get 100+ regain, I would risk theory that whole Gokotai setup is also competitive and sometimes better than Kikoku.
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 05:59:50
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Agreed, something is off.
Even R15 Kikoku has 1 less base damage than Gokotai and no DEX+15 (secondary mod for Blade: Ku).
The difference is more around ~49 attack more on Kikoku (+30 attack, +19 skill) but even in seriously att starved scenarios I seriously doubt that alone can outbalance Ku damage +60% from Gokotai.

Agreed, the Kamu numbers also surprised me with how low they were and how little Nagi helped until it got to higher levels but I wasn't going to really delve into it until I got to my Ku/Kamu video. Looks like lilmartio has found an error with the spreadsheet with Ku's/Kamu's increase in damage not happening correctly. I'll work with Langly to make sure the numbers are updated before I do calc's for the ku and kamu vid's and update the numbers in the top pinned comments one we fix the sheet and recalc, still not expecting them to be higher on the list but they should definitely be closer to the others and Gokatai and Nagi should hopefully find their way back into best in slot then.
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-06-30 06:05:33
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SimonSes said: »
Considering you can wear 103 Dual Wield (maybe its capped tho) in idle for Gokotai to get 100+ regain, I would risk theory that whole Gokotai setup is also competitive and sometimes better than Kikoku.
I can see that happening honestly but:

1) Blade: Ku sadly doesn't scale with TP, which makes it super annoying in situations where your TP gain is so high you unavoidably end up with storms of TP above 1000

2) Idling in DW gear limits your choices of Regen/Refresh/DT/MovementSpeed that people usually deploy in their Idle sets. Of course you can create multiple Idle sets and swap them accordingly with a command bound to a key/macro, but personally I still find such a perspective of constantly having to swap idle sets a bit annoying, that's just me of course.



Second is almost a non issue. First leaves a sour taste in your mouth but ultimately it's not really a big deal either.
I think Gokotai could be a nice option indeed.
Anybody tested if there's a cap on the DW>Regain conversion?
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 06:08:19
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Asura.Sechs said: »
SimonSes said: »
Considering you can wear 103 Dual Wield (maybe its capped tho) in idle for Gokotai to get 100+ regain, I would risk theory that whole Gokotai setup is also competitive and sometimes better than Kikoku.
I can see that happening honestly but:

1) Blade: Ku sadly doesn't scale with TP, which makes it super annoying in situations where your TP gain is so high you unavoidably end up with storms of TP above 1000

2) Idling in DW gear limits your choices of Regen/Refresh/DT/MovementSpeed that people usually deploy in their Idle sets. Of course you can create multiple Idle sets and swap them accordingly with a command bound to a key/macro, but personally I still find such a perspective of constantly having to swap idle sets a bit annoying, that's just me of course.



Second is almost a non issue. First leaves a sour taste in your mouth but ultimately it's not really a big deal either.
I think Gokotai could be a nice option indeed.
Anybody tested if there's a cap on the DW>Regain conversion?

There does not appear to be a CAP. I take it all the way up to 100 per tic... I'm still missing 3DW at that point so it's possible it's capping there but I doubt it.
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-06-30 06:09:22
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Wonder what would make for the best OH for Gokotai?
Perf Ochu if you don't need acc.
Fudo Masamune (or secondarily augmented Shigi) if you need acc.
Otherwise what, Kanaria with STR+ and TA+?
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 06:13:34
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Wonder what would make for the best OH for Gokotai?
Perf Ochu if you don't need acc.
Fudo Masamune (or secondarily augmented Shigi) if you need acc.
Otherwise what, Kanaria with STR+ and TA+?

I'd be surprised if it wasn't Fudo Masamune in offhand in trust situations and Tauret in offhand in hyperbuffed. It's ended up with that being the best DPS weapon in almost every situation I've tested. Ochu should NEVER be used... Tauret out damages it by leaps and bounds in both melee DPS and Magic/MB Damage. Will definitely make sure this holds true though after Langly confirms the spreadsheet has been changed.

Oh and yes at times Kanaria with Max TA/DEX/ACC/ATTK can come to the top... but it's so darn hard to get those stats all to Max I don't even mention it anymore. As if any of those stats are not maxed it will no longer be BiS.
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-06-30 06:25:45
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Phoenix.Logical said: »
Ochu should NEVER be used...
Please do elaborate on this, I'm interested.
Last time I used Langly's SH to test things out, Perf Ochu as OH of Heishi Shorinken for Blade: Ten and Blade: Shun spam was way above Fudo Masamune with capped Acc/Att, with Fudo Masamune getting very close only in seriously underbuffed Att (but still capped acc).
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 06:41:54
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Phoenix.Logical said: »
Ochu should NEVER be used...
Please do elaborate on this, I'm interested.
Last time I used Langly's SH to test things out, Perf Ochu as OH of Heishi Shorinken for Blade: Ten and Blade: Shun spam was way above Fudo Masamune with capped Acc/Att, with Fudo Masamune getting very close only in seriously underbuffed Att (but still capped acc).

In regards to why it doesn't help out more with non MB DPS, I think it has to do with it's delay. I also thought that extra STR and DEX would have more of an effect.

With Ten:
If I switch to Ochu in offhand in Hyperbuffed situation compared to Tauret, damage drops from 6576 to 6498. This is actually the closest I've seen Ochu in Damage to Tauret.

With Shun:
If I switch to Ochu in offhand in Hyperbuffed situation compared to Tauret, damage drops from 4738 to 7475.

I'll go ahead and upload my spreadsheets later after I confirm with Langly that we have fixed Ku and Kamu so that you can play with it as well and see if you feel I'm making an error.
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By SimonSes 2020-06-30 07:15:58
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I have a feeling, that all this OH discussion will be outdated in 2 weeks with Ternion Dagger +1 R15 ;)
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-06-30 07:22:10
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I see your point Logical, but you're talking about Tauret, which makes totally sense (and I still refuse to use it :-P).
I was comparing Katanas :D
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2020-06-30 10:06:13
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Thanks for the heads up Logical.

I've altered the rows D279 E279 to reflect all levels of Nagi's bonus to Kamu, and Gokotai's bonus to Ku.

Please let me know if my morning brain has made any mistakes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ww48h74xjsb7jk1/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Ninja.xlsx?dl=0
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By SimonSes 2020-06-30 12:42:49
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With fixed sheet im getting 5178 dps with Gokotai/Tauret (22150 damage Blade: Ku) and 5743 dps with Kikoku/Tauret (25362 damage Blade: Metsu). Both with full Kenda +1 as tp set.

Now I wonder how much dps would be worth that 100 regain in idle and 35 regain when engaged, because I doubt thats implemented in sheet.
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By Phoenix.Logical 2020-06-30 13:28:14
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I see your point Logical, but you're talking about Tauret, which makes totally sense (and I still refuse to use it :-P).
I was comparing Katanas :D

haha understood. Actually Ochu is better than I was giving it credit for. It's close to the other top Katana's in both ws's. This is what I'm showing for Shun and Ten in capped situations.

Ten:
Hitaki: 6357(3000TP) - 6918 (2500TP)
Tauret: 6376
Achu: 6339
Ochu: 6317
Kanaria w/ TA+DEX: 6309
Fudo Masamune: 6153

Shun:
Tauret: 4738
Kanaria w/ TA+DEX: 4601
Taka: 4582
Ochu: 4575
Achu: 4561
Fudo Masamune: 4543
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2020-06-30 13:44:48
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SimonSes said: »
Now I wonder how much dps would be worth that 100 regain in idle and 35 regain when engaged, because I doubt thats implemented in sheet.

There is a regain field on the gear sheet that will impact tp gain. Or you could use a modified Tacticians Roll at the value Gokotai would give.

There's no implementation for idle, so it would only be during TP gain part of the cycle (35 for your example).

The field is entirely manual with Gokotai at the moment. You would have to key in 35 into the custom field.
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2020-06-30 14:14:31
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Phoenix.Logical said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
I see your point Logical, but you're talking about Tauret, which makes totally sense (and I still refuse to use it :-P).
I was comparing Katanas :D

haha understood. Actually Ochu is better than I was giving it credit for. It's close to the other top Katana's in both ws's. This is what I'm showing for Shun and Ten in capped situations.

Ten:
Hitaki: 6357(3000TP) - 6918 (2500TP)
Tauret: 6376
Achu: 6339
Ochu: 6317
Kanaria w/ TA+DEX: 6309
Fudo Masamune: 6153

Shun:
Tauret: 4738
Kanaria w/ TA+DEX: 4601
Taka: 4582
Ochu: 4575
Achu: 4561
Fudo Masamune: 4543

We will all probably get different numbers, but those line up with what I have seen at max buffs.

For those wondering about Nagi spamming Ten w/ AM:

Nagi/Hitaki: 6888
Nagi/Gokotai: 5618
Nagi/Fudo: 5533
Nagi/Ochu: 5703
Nagi/Shigi: 5564
Nagi/Kanarai(TA): 5751
Nagi/Tauret: 5796
Nagi/Achu: 5678
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