The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Leviathan.Zelllo
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-14 12:16:43
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
The numbers in the video above is the average I would see with trust buffs.

Lol, I have 2 Idris, rostum cor x1 and ghorn/dharp brd there... I'm going to have to call you out on this comment. I'd like to know if my gearset is that far off too if you've got a trust setup that does that.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-01-14 12:34:27
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Sorry I misspoke there, I meant standard buffs. Just rattled off the response there. But the comment was not even about challenging your damage, more about learning about these 50k Kus mentioned above yours.

With max buffs, you hit 24k, the comment is claiming double that in a zerg with a non-rema. I was genuinely curious I may have overlooked Gokotai after the first few days of using it.
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 Leviathan.Zelllo
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-14 12:40:33
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Yeah, I am def curious about context around Kat’s ku numbers.
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2020-01-14 13:41:51
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Apologies for the late response!
You are correct, not only I had the standard buffs in endgame content, there was also fighters roll tossed in there and it was on Dyna D-Bastok Galka (all fetters were down and bolster was up, SV songs, 4 Rostam Rolls with steps 10/10 and Ageha).

The spiked one of 70k which was extremely rare, happened during Domain Invasion, a full proc it seems with PDL pushing its damage even further.

The idea behind my post was to highlight another option for Ninjas who want an easier approach to DPS outside REMA.
Cool video Zello, see you in game~
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-01-14 14:42:29
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eh, Domain Invasion is a really skewed event. You get outside buffs + vorseals, and even Awakening bonus and DI gear. Not a practical scenario to mention. I still don't see how you're able to average 50-55k Ku on a wave3 boss at 1k TP spam, regardless of how many buffs/debuffs you have on. That seems abnormally higher than what Ku should be able to accomplish. You would effectively be the strongest DPS in the group with that kind of output. I don't believe it, I'm sorry
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-01-14 14:58:32
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50,000 / 1.6 = 31,250

31250 / 3.685 = 8481

8481 / 8 = 1061

1061 / 1.35 = 786

786 / 3.685 = 214

214 - 157 = 57

57 / 0.3 = 190

190 combined str and dex with an 8 hit would be about 50K, so more than 50K is possible.

70K would only need a combined ~275 STR and DEX with 8 hits.

edit: forgot to divide somewhere, and 0 fSTR
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-14 17:15:14
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/derail:

This is cool! Hachimonji, the "Auto-attack" means any STP you have becomes multihits instead?
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By Nariont 2020-01-14 18:04:28
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that grants absolutely no extra TP, but grants the enemy TP still, its really good design
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-01-14 18:16:42
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Oh wow is that really how that katana operates?
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By Nariont 2020-01-14 18:22:24
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Thats what i saw when i saw the little bit of testing for it;

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/41903/bushido-the-way-of-the-samurai-a-guide-v-20/109/#3425188
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2020-01-14 19:38:43
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
/derail:

This is cool! Hachimonji, the "Auto-attack" means any STP you have becomes multihits instead?

You only need a combined 50 STP (in gear, buffs, traits) to activate the follow up attack by 100%

Not sure about it not giving any TP though, I tested it on NIN/WHM when it was introduced to check exactly how much STP is required, and TP from follow up attack was there.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-01-14 20:13:19
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Nariont said: »

You aren't the only one to say they've tested the extra hit and shown it provides no TP:
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/41903/bushido-the-way-of-the-samurai-a-guide-v-20/118/#3478319

I've seen that reported several times, so I've always assumed it to be true.
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By Siren.Kyte 2020-01-14 20:52:06
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I think you do get the TP from the follow-up attack, but you don't get any additional benefit from the STP that you have on the rounds it activates on (maybe you do if you have over +100 STP? not sure, and I don't care enough to test any further).
 Leviathan.Zelllo
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-15 01:34:01
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Yeah, that's totally not how the Hachimonji works.

Spent some time out testing it on NIN/WHM and SAM/WHM without double attack, triple attack, quadruple attack.

Tested it with 0 STP, 50 STP, high 80's low 90's STP, ~120 STP, 174 STP (in abyssea with 3 x 20 STP atma)

Here's my conclusion: Any standard DA/TA/QA or single hit, that isn't a proc is normal TP based on your delay and store tp. Those happen first in the roll order.

Any multi atk proc from the weapon is 127 TP per hit, which sounds like crap I know. Here's the thing, if it is a double hit proc, that's 254 TP, which is just over a 4 hit build if you counted that as the single it was going to be with any other GKT.

The proportion of procs vs non-procs seems to be the same as the proportion between your STP leading up to and at 254 TP per regular hit. Which means to say that, 0 STP means no procs, and once you hit 254 per hit, you're at 100% proc for 2 hits multi-atk.

For NIN using it, this seems like a pretty clear win in terms of TP return, since you're likely not at a 4-hit build. It's simply you get more TP or you get normal TP.

Above 254 TP per normal hit is where SAMs probably threw their weapons as soon as they saw three swings and a 381 TP return.

If you get between 254-381 TP per hit on a normal attack, then you have a chance, of rolling a 3 hit multi atk, in proportion up to 381 TP per hit (I am assuming since I only got up to 374 TP/Hit). Any failed 3 hit multi atk turn into an automatic 2 hit multi attack. I say this because at 264 TP per hit I rarely saw a 3, but at 374, most were 3.

In this range, I would say that overall, your TP over time is going to be about the same as normal, just with more swings. So yeah, don't toss your Masa for this thing by any means.

Also worth noting, that if you proc and only hit once, you're going to get 127 TP return. This is easily verified by hitting a mob with not enough HP for another round.

Also if you proc a 3 hit and miss 2 times, you're going to get 127 TP return.

This is my understanding based on reasoning about it for a bit, if someone has exact numbers that are better, cool, but this is good enough for me to conclude that the TP return is about the same which is good enough for my purposes.

Edit: Added some details
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By SimonSes 2020-01-15 02:51:45
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
50,000 / 1.6 = 31,250

31250 / 3.685 = 8481

8481 / 8 = 1061

1061 / 1.35 = 786

786 / 3.685 = 214 <- You divided by pdif 2nd time

214 786 - 157 = 57 629

57 629 / 0.3 = 190 2096

190 2096 combined str and dex with an 8 hit would be about 50K, so more than 50K is not? possible.

70K would "only" need a combined ~275 3141 STR and DEX with 8 hits.

edit: forgot to divide somewhere, and 0 fSTR

FTFY :)
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-01-15 07:34:35
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actually what i did was divide by 0.3 instead of multiply when i wrote out my formula and forgot i had already divided by pdif:
((((157 + 25 + (x * 0.3)) * 1.35) * 3.685) * 1.07) * 8 = 50000
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By SimonSes 2020-01-15 07:51:19
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
actually what i did was divide by 0.3 instead of multiply when i wrote out my formula and forgot i had already divided by pdif:
((((157 + 25 + (x * 0.3)) * 1.35) * 3.685) * 1.07) * 8 = 50000

This one is missing 1.6 multiplier from weapon :) Are you leaving in hurry Austar? :)


Details aside. I dont see how you can do 50k with Ku. 2000 combined str and dex is impossible i think, even with max buffs. So it was some additional multiplier in this dynamis and domain invasion or its not possible otherwise.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-01-15 08:06:03
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oops.

no, i haven't slept very well this past week, but isn't there a 100% increase buff in DI?
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-01-15 09:56:50
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
oops.

no, i haven't slept very well this past week, but isn't there a 100% increase buff in DI?
If you kill the last monster from the first wave you get "Awakening" buff which gives:

Regen +100 HP/tic
Refresh +100 MP/tic
Regain +600 TP/tic
Damage dealt +100%
Damage Taken -50%
Auto-Reraise With No Experience Point Loss

From my experience my WSs doesn't seem to be doing 2x as damage, so that 100% must be applied before something else (or it's less than 100? I dunno) It's still a pretty huge bonus though.
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By Taint 2020-01-15 10:24:28
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
oops.

no, i haven't slept very well this past week, but isn't there a 100% increase buff in DI?
If you kill the last monster from the first wave you get "Awakening" buff which gives:

Regen +100 HP/tic
Refresh +100 MP/tic
Regain +600 TP/tic
Damage dealt +100%
Damage Taken -50%
Auto-Reraise With No Experience Point Loss

From my experience my WSs doesn't seem to be doing 2x as damage, so that 100% must be applied before something else (or it's less than 100? I dunno) It's still a pretty huge bonus though.

It looks to be a true 100%. Got it on BLU and my Expiacion was doing consistently 99999 and its normally ~50k.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-01-15 10:45:01
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Taint said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
oops.

no, i haven't slept very well this past week, but isn't there a 100% increase buff in DI?
If you kill the last monster from the first wave you get "Awakening" buff which gives:

Regen +100 HP/tic
Refresh +100 MP/tic
Regain +600 TP/tic
Damage dealt +100%
Damage Taken -50%
Auto-Reraise With No Experience Point Loss

From my experience my WSs doesn't seem to be doing 2x as damage, so that 100% must be applied before something else (or it's less than 100? I dunno) It's still a pretty huge bonus though.

It looks to be a true 100%. Got it on BLU and my Expiacion was doing consistently 99999 and its normally ~50k.

Yes the awakening bonus is 2x damage but there is no possible way you can accomplish that kind of damage on a Wave 3 boss with Blade Ku.
 Leviathan.Zelllo
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-15 10:57:44
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To back up my Hachimonji claims:

YouTube Video Placeholder
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-15 13:08:22
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Leviathan.Zelllo said: »
Yeah, that's totally not how the Hachimonji works.

Spent some time out testing it on NIN/WHM and SAM/WHM without double attack, triple attack, quadruple attack.

Tested it with 0 STP, 50 STP, high 80's low 90's STP, ~120 STP, 174 STP (in abyssea with 3 x 20 STP atma)

Here's my conclusion: Any standard DA/TA/QA or single hit, that isn't a proc is normal TP based on your delay and store tp. Those happen first in the roll order.

Any multi atk proc from the weapon is 127 TP per hit, which sounds like crap I know. Here's the thing, if it is a double hit proc, that's 254 TP, which is just over a 4 hit build if you counted that as the single it was going to be with any other GKT.

The proportion of procs vs non-procs seems to be the same as the proportion between your STP leading up to and at 254 TP per regular hit. Which means to say that, 0 STP means no procs, and once you hit 254 per hit, you're at 100% proc for 2 hits multi-atk.

For NIN using it, this seems like a pretty clear win in terms of TP return, since you're likely not at a 4-hit build. It's simply you get more TP or you get normal TP.

Above 254 TP per normal hit is where SAMs probably threw their weapons as soon as they saw three swings and a 381 TP return.

If you get between 254-381 TP per hit on a normal attack, then you have a chance, of rolling a 3 hit multi atk, in proportion up to 381 TP per hit (I am assuming since I only got up to 374 TP/Hit). Any failed 3 hit multi atk turn into an automatic 2 hit multi attack. I say this because at 264 TP per hit I rarely saw a 3, but at 374, most were 3.

In this range, I would say that overall, your TP over time is going to be about the same as normal, just with more swings. So yeah, don't toss your Masa for this thing by any means.

Also worth noting, that if you proc and only hit once, you're going to get 127 TP return. This is easily verified by hitting a mob with not enough HP for another round.

Also if you proc a 3 hit and miss 2 times, you're going to get 127 TP return.

This is my understanding based on reasoning about it for a bit, if someone has exact numbers that are better, cool, but this is good enough for me to conclude that the TP return is about the same which is good enough for my purposes.

Edit: Added some details

So in conclusion, (setting aside a GK nin) this is pretty OP for nin, but meh on sam?
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By Nariont 2020-01-15 13:19:07
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Thanks for the explanation+video, so any OaT procs for this fixes your tp return at 127/hit and it can proc up to 3 times a round, im guessing the 3 hit rounds were when you were above 100 STP on sam saw gearinfo showing 60 in gear so you got 40 in trait+merits + another 8 in gifts yeah?

Dont see too much appeal in gearing around it though as opposed to a typical TA build that nin would have, or a TA/zanhasso build SAM would have, but maybe im missing something with this.
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-15 13:38:35
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The closest thing I can (concisely) compare this to is an interpolation algorithm similar to rasterizing lines, wherein the line function is normal store tp, and the low-res rastered line is the multi-atk probability. The shaded in area above the line representing the probability of a proc, below representing not a proc.

Explanation of rasterizing lines: Rastering Lines Algorithm

Without a ton of testing, essentially building a table for every possible store TP value and it's associated multi-atk rate, I think this is the next best assessment.

As far as characterizing it in terms of power, I'd say it's NIN's strongest GKT option, however it doesn't beat out NIN REMA. Gearing for it might make it stand out a bit more, but I don't think it's a game changer. Bonus, you get access to kasha.

In terms of SAM, it's probably better than most non-REMA options, especially on elemental WS since those are going to benefit from the magical properties on Hachimonji. But based on other things I read about it, I feel like it has gotten a bad rap, unfairly.

I understand the disappointment that it's not another Shining One.
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By Nariont 2020-01-15 13:43:35
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Leviathan.Zelllo said: »
In terms of SAM, it's probably better than most non-REMA options, especially on elemental WS since those are going to benefit from the magical properties on Hachimonji.

But it has no magic dmg or mab to make use of, got nice macc though.
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-15 13:49:38
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Yeah, the macc is what I was referring to, which is pretty important for magical WS as far as I can tell.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-15 15:29:18
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Ullr is also interesting, not just for NIN, THF too, can use a ranged WS w/o subbing RNG.

DMG:178 Delay:360 STR+15 DEX+15 AGI+15 Ranged Accuracy+40 Ranged Attack+30 Magic Accuracy+40 Archery skill +250 "Empyreal Arrow" "Empyreal Arrow" damage +50% Ranged Attack: Increases the ranged accuracy upper limit for attacks from a suitable distance by +4%

edit: holy cow NIN is on quite a few of those weapons. Only reason the Bow stands out, you can still WS w/ it and use Shurikens to TP with, IIRC, you dont lose TP until you unequip a ranged weapon. Not when equipping it, similar to how BRDs operate.

I am open to being corrected though. Seeing as how NIN has a lot of access to racc/ratt and we tend to pack a lot of AGI, this seems interesting, kinda how SAM can do GK and Bow relic WSs.
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By Nariont 2020-01-15 15:35:23
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if you swap the ranged slot it will reset TP, only ammo allows swapping without TP loss. A BRD will still lose TP swapping instruments for songs
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-15 15:35:54
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I actually made ullr as a magic accuracy piece for ninja... justified it by building a rdm though.

You do get access to the WS without /RNG btw.

I haven't messed with ranged WS on NIN since the 75 days when I was running a 4x RNG, NIN/RNG, WHM xp PT where everyone was using guns, barrage, and slug shot. It was a blast.

Daken has pretty much ruled out using bows/guns for most practical playing.
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