The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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2019-12-13
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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-06 19:57:12
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Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Spamming the NIN wheel does not feed any TP to the target(?). If that is true, then it opens up some interesting no-tp-feed options, similar to what RDM can do with enspells

I do not think it works that way. But I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise.

I want to know what would have made Logical claim they do not feed any tp at all?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-12-06 20:00:43
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Because the feed is very low with magic. You can kill weak things before they get 1000 tp.

It's ~13TP per cast. You can cast ~77 Damaging spells before a mob gets 1k tp if you nuke with fudo masamune. And Yurin will lower it even further.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-06 20:12:39
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We know magic feeds low tp. Very low tp feed is not the same as “does not feed any”. He may have just misspoke though. Not sure if he reads the forum, but would be interested in knowing if he tested that specifically or just assumed there was no TP feed. But nothing in his video mentioned using SB2 gear while nuking , he did mention yurin, but not in reference to spamming the wheel. He also specifically was speaking About killing bosses, not weak monsters

Just curious if it was an error comment or if something like ichi in succession gave no feed.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-12-06 20:14:12
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While 13 isn't zero it's basically zero. If you cast 50 spells and didnt get hit with a tp move you could easily assume it was giving zero tp.

Go ballista and cast a spell, test doesn't get much easier than that.

Where's his video?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-06 20:15:56
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-12-06 20:19:14
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He didn't do proper research. That's why you don't believe everything you hear from randoms.

Go pop literally any unm or gaea's fate and try it, they will get tp. Knock it down to 25% then wheel it. (it takes ~220 casts to give 3000 tp)
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-06 22:05:34
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Asura.Sechs said: »
It's an excellent offhand weapon! xD
But clearly that wasn't your question.

I'm not sure, I think it's probably the best non REMA option, worse than Heishi Shorinken, likely worse than Kikoku too.
Discussion is more open when it comes to Nagi and Kannagi.

The Ambuscade katana is a solid option and will handily beat any of the non-RMEA/Divergence options. It's a good choice if you don't have an RMEA katana already.

Kannagi R0 easily beats Gokotai, and so does Kikoku R0. Obviously with augments, the distance between Ambuscade weapon and Relic/Empy/Aeonic gets even greater. I'm not sure exactly where augmented Nagi falls (R0 Nagi will trail Relic, Empy, Aeonic, Divergence, and Ambuscade weapons), but that's somewhat of a moot point as nobody should be making Nagi as their first RMEA katana.

Fudo Masamune (Divergence/Su5) mainhand would also comfortably beat Gokotai once you add any path A/B augments, but I probably wouldn't suggest that given the cost (for people without a Relic/Empy/Aeonic, you'd be better off prioritizing getting R/E/A). Su4 katana on A or B path likely also eventually pulls ahead of Gokotai once you get some augment levels on it, and is a pretty affordable option.

Fudo Masamune without augments (including using it in the offhand) or on C path (from an offensive perspective) plays a similar role to Gokotai - but with the clear advantage still going to Fudo for the large atk+ bonus with shadows and higher skill/acc. Gokotai does get DEX/AGI+15 to help Shun/Ku/Hi a bit, but that won't outweigh the atk/acc. And while Gokotai also gets the perk of DW/regain, that's really more of an idle regain since with proper haste buffs (even from trusts) you should rarely need/want any DW in your TP set. Both Fudo and Gokotai retain a similar use as good high acc offhand acc weapons to an RMEA mainhand (Tauret also performs very well in this role, it's my go-to). Fudo also has great utility on path C as a tanking-focused mainhand - kinda niche but can have some real value for that role (and still doubles as a great acc-focused offhand).

If you have no plans to make a NIN RMEA, I'd suggest getting:
- Mainhand: Gokotai OR Mochizuki (Divergence/Su4 weapon) A path
- Offhand (for high acc situations): Tauret OR Kaja katana OR Mochizuki (Su4)
- Offhand (lower acc requirements): Kanaria, with TA+3 augment along with whatever DMG/Acc/Atk/Racc and attributes you can manage. Kanaria will generally be BiS offhand if you can cap acc without one of the higher acc offhand options.
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By Sylph.Reain 2019-12-06 23:55:45
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Go pop literally any unm or gaea's fate and try it, they will get tp. Knock it down to 25% then wheel it. (it takes ~220 casts to give 3000 tp)

If you nuke a charmable monster you can charm it and check its TP with <pettp> for a faster test. You're right though. They do give TP.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-07 06:13:29
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I would add Shigi (augmented) to the list of interesting OH options when you need acc. Inferior to the other two options provided as it may be, if still is an interesting one
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By Asura.Lunafreya 2019-12-12 08:31:05
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Struggling to figure out why my (new Kikoku, r0 still) Metsu damage seems really low. I wanted to do some testing before committing detritus to it.

Apex Bats in Dho.
Koru/Qultada/Joachim as trusts
No Food

Metsu set:

ItemSet 370138

All herc is dex15/wsd4/varying degrees of acc/atk. Kanaria is a dmg/str/acc/ta augment.

I am seeing around 7.5~8.5k damage on average which seems really low I think? Or am I expecting too much from R0? Obvious missing pieces are empa/gere ring, +2 neck (working on cards for +3 head) but I wouldn't expect thousands of damage of increase from those alone.
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By geigei 2019-12-12 08:32:26
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I don't have numbers right now but i went from no kikoku to R15 in 2 days and it was wasted money.
 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-12 09:31:34
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You're probably attack starved.
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By SimonSes 2019-12-12 09:42:04
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Asura.Lunafreya said: »
Struggling to figure out why my (new Kikoku, r0 still) Metsu damage seems really low. I wanted to do some testing before committing detritus to it.

Apex Bats in Dho.
Koru/Qultada/Joachim as trusts
No Food

Metsu set:

ItemSet 370138

All herc is dex15/wsd4/varying degrees of acc/atk. Kanaria is a dmg/str/acc/ta augment.

I am seeing around 7.5~8.5k damage on average which seems really low I think? Or am I expecting too much from R0? Obvious missing pieces are empa/gere ring, +2 neck (working on cards for +3 head) but I wouldn't expect thousands of damage of increase from those alone.

You expecting way too much from underbuffed NIN is general. You have terribly low attack in this set and you dont even eat attack food. You can expect ~22k damage on avg from R15 with capped attack and good set.
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By Fayona 2019-12-12 10:57:23
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Metsu also suffers from the same issues as all other relic ws. In that it doesn’t scale with TP. Whenever I’m the soul DD on Nin and using my alt on brd with Sylvia qult and Koru for buff I do about 12-16k with R0 kikoku. I mostly only use Kikoku when I want to three step light with ten metsu shun against tenzen or something. I don’t have aeonic katana but if you are seeking pure damage on Nin it’s likely the one you’d want to R15
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-12 12:30:24
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Kikoku r15 is still weak compared to something like heishi ten spam. Also heavily will lose to radiance of course. You’re going to hit a wall on ninja damage even with buffs, but kikoku is only moderately strong with buffs. Seeing damage on the lower end is sadly very common. I don’t even use mine, ever really. Shun hits harder most of the time.
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By SimonSes 2019-12-12 13:45:45
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-12 14:06:22
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Despite the general narrative people seemed to want to push here, Kikoku R0 was always pretty weak. Lagged well behind both Heishi and Kannagi in nearly any situation. Once augments came along, the Metsu DMG+20% made it a lot more viable (fair to say that it was the biggest buff going from R0-R15 for any RMEA katana, and one of the more significant improvements of any RMEA going from no augments to R15), since Metsu is a pretty good WS to spam at 1000tp, with excellent SC properties.

That's really the ideal use for Kikoku: when Metsu helps for SC purposes. That's not a terribly infrequent scenario since it plays so well with light/dark SCs with lots of other WS (and super easy self darkness/light options). The WS isn't a liability - even if it isn't always top damage, it's up there.

If you just care about raw WS numbers, Heishi's probably your better bet. Kannagi plays differently, but also has its niche when white damage matters (people really sleep on Empy AM3 crits as a contribution to total DPS, particularly when you aren't super buffed to really push the Ten/Shun damage from Heishi and skew the WS:TP damage ratio more heavily toward WS). None of the three are bad, but in the current meta *assuming you get strong buffs*, Heishi is probably the most straightforward/easiest to use of the lot.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-14 09:20:20
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Given my OH options, I lean towards Perfect Ochu when I'm not too crazy for Acc, and I have 2 more options if I want more acc, Shigi and Gokotai.

It's these two I want to compare specifically. Anybody put em in the spreadsheet by any chance?

Shigi offers less delay, less damage (irrelevant?), much less hand-specific acc, but ~26 more "both hands" accuracy. Then Ninjutsu related stuff (cool but meh) and Enmity-10 (which is semi-irrelevant when riding Yonin/Yain and/or have Dirge on)

Gokotai offers higher delay, higher damage, +15 DEX/AGI/INT, more attack (hand specific and general), +40 Macc, +16 Mab.

Despite Shigi having less hand-specific acc (-22) than Gokotai, it has +26 generic Acc, so in the end Shigi ends up giving more general Acc and slightly more hand-specific acc as well, compared to Gokotai.


I dunno, I think I like Shigi better for situations where you really need acc, and Ochu should be better than both for pure damage anyway.
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By Carbuncle.Tace 2019-12-14 11:52:30
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I was gonna say taka served me well offhand till I got heishi but if you can get one you can get other since taka drops off vinipata. I did get lucky on my kanaria roll tho dmg 10 dex13 acc20 atk17 triple atk3. Unrelated side note I made a herculean magic burst set for ninja it's the worst thing I've tried to roll for ever with oseem.
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By huttburt<3 2019-12-15 18:20:59
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nin kinda sucks right now. I was upset after I got the aeonic and did stuff with it. I mean i like the job tho. I'm not sure what i'm trying to say.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-16 05:40:43
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Capuchin, Langly, WRU?!

Come subdue my doubts!
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-16 08:11:00
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huttburt<3 said: »
nin kinda sucks right now. I was upset after I got the aeonic and did stuff with it. I mean i like the job tho. I'm not sure what i'm trying to say.

Keep it in the back pocket and the fanboys will be impressed when that one Ambuscade month comes along and you're a "wrecking ball" (aka a gimp COR dps-wise with a ton of shadows).

On a more serious note about NIN, something has to be done about Sange. I used to be a really big advocate of it, but I have de-meritted it and have not ever felt like I missed having it burn through my stash. It doesn't last long enough for it to make a significant difference, it's only a small increase over our current Daken rate (79% with +2 neck, so its really only +21%), and the racc bonus is mostly not even that useful. Add to that the fact there aren't any really good shurikens in the game, where other jobs get consistent non-throwing improvement options.

I really noticed this past month's ambu when solo SCing on NIN how weak the job really was. The fact that I didn't need to use Sange at all to pull off the gimmick was interesting, as I thought I might miss a couple of SCs. Missed none. I really wouldn't get too frustrated with NIN's dps unless you are in a situation where you can specifically exploit Blade: Chi's potential (I had fun in Dynamis W1/2 with this on the parse). Otherwise, treat is as a for-fun-job, something that can change the pace as a lazy-mode approach to tanking/dding.

Oh, and I like Tauret over Shigi for the lower delay option. Haven't seen too many scenarios where Acc/Racc has ever been a problem recently for anything you would bring a NIN to and wouldn't have the appropriate buffs to even make them worthwhile.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-12-16 08:12:29
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I got rid of sange the day they changed nin merits for yonin/innin.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-16 08:24:02
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Likewise. Seems no point in using it anymore. Need to change that move to grant an additional bonus to something else, perhaps Crit Damage
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-12-16 08:27:36
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huttburt<3 said: »
nin kinda sucks right now. I was upset after I got the aeonic and did stuff with it. I mean i like the job tho. I'm not sure what i'm trying to say.

Ninja doesn't do the most damage but it's tremendous fun to play. And it's good for some Ambu months, like this one and last month's. I wish they'd buff katana damage but I'm pretty happy with ninja overall for its utility.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-16 08:38:12
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Asura.Sirris said: »
And it's good for some Ambu months, like this one and last month's

It's good because people are just lazy thinkers. I have done the "NIN" ambu months, and the difference between just using a good SB Cor is very small. The biggest thing is having an endless army of Shadows, which makes survival very high vs something like COR. It opens up unique combinations of jobs since NIN can tank and DD, self SC (break miasmas) and survive those OHKO gimmicks. I like NIN for the same reason you mentioned, but mostly because I know there are so few decent NIN who care to play it, I can always get a spot in a group with mine.

There is no question though, it needs a huge buff. COR being able to pump out 35k SBs compared to your 28k- Blade Tens is not reasonable imo.
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-12-16 10:11:47
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
And it's good for some Ambu months, like this one and last month's

It's good because people are just lazy thinkers. I have done the "NIN" ambu months, and the difference between just using a good SB Cor is very small. The biggest thing is having an endless army of Shadows, which makes survival very high vs something like COR. It opens up unique combinations of jobs since NIN can tank and DD, self SC (break miasmas) and survive those OHKO gimmicks. I like NIN for the same reason you mentioned, but mostly because I know there are so few decent NIN who care to play it, I can always get a spot in a group with mine.

There is no question though, it needs a huge buff. COR being able to pump out 35k SBs compared to your 28k- Blade Tens is not reasonable imo.

Buukki I agree but it takes a lot of the uncertainty out of strats. Can a COR/NIN do a lot of what NIN main can do plus provide powerful buffs? Absolutely, but NIN is better at it with the safety net of endless shadows.

Katana WS do need a buff across the board. And tbh Savage Blade needs a nerf. It should have lower TP scaling and TP bonus gun shouldn't apply to mainhand WS, I think.
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By Asura.Lunafreya 2019-12-16 10:20:03
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I am holding onto hope that NIN will see an adjustment (probably not as powerful) similar to that which MNK got recently.
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By Bismarck.Ringoko 2019-12-16 10:21:05
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Asura.Sirris said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
And it's good for some Ambu months, like this one and last month's

It's good because people are just lazy thinkers. I have done the "NIN" ambu months, and the difference between just using a good SB Cor is very small. The biggest thing is having an endless army of Shadows, which makes survival very high vs something like COR. It opens up unique combinations of jobs since NIN can tank and DD, self SC (break miasmas) and survive those OHKO gimmicks. I like NIN for the same reason you mentioned, but mostly because I know there are so few decent NIN who care to play it, I can always get a spot in a group with mine.

There is no question though, it needs a huge buff. COR being able to pump out 35k SBs compared to your 28k- Blade Tens is not reasonable imo.

Buukki I agree but it takes a lot of the uncertainty out of strats. Can a COR/NIN do a lot of what NIN main can do plus provide powerful buffs? Absolutely, but NIN is better at it with the safety net of endless shadows.

Katana WS do need a buff across the board. And tbh Savage Blade needs a nerf. It should have lower TP scaling and TP bonus gun shouldn't apply to mainhand WS, I think.

Offhand TP bonus shouldn't work also :[
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-16 10:22:15
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Asura.Sirris said: »
it takes a lot of the uncertainty out of strats

I know thats why I said

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It's good because people are just lazy thinkers
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It opens up unique combinations of jobs

xD

Asura.Sirris said: »
NIN is better at it with the safety net of endless shadows.

I wouldn't say it's "better at it". It just means you can worry less about your extra DPS not dying as much. That's not a bad thing, but like I said, lazy approach. If you had the choice between a COR who can maintain shadows and dps or a NIN who can do the same, you will pick the COR 100% of the time simply because it buffs other players and does MORE damage most of the time vs NIN. But this is more of a perception and skill problem imo. Less people care for NIN, so less people value it, which means less strats revolve around one. Even I have to convince my LS to let me come NIN to certain strats, because they are always wary of how they think NIN is weak. But it can fit in nicely in certain strats and it does give you a little bit of wiggle room in your groups, where Cor you're basically surviving off of 3 shadows.
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