The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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By Afania 2019-06-06 19:23:07
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Why is a rangers snapshot cap the same as every other job.


They actually have higher shooting speed than every other job because of velocity shot, which further reduce /Ra delay after snapshot capped.

I don't think they need anything else, they are the fastest /Ra job as it is.
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By Afania 2019-06-06 19:41:35
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
You missed the point entirely. But being you, that is 100% expected.


Why post on a public forum if you dont like other people reply to something that you said to continue the conversation.

Geez, chill. You are always triggered easily....
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 Ragnarok.Jukiro
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By Ragnarok.Jukiro 2019-06-06 21:49:57
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anyone else want to share current thoughts on BiS offhands?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-06-06 22:49:18
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Can't tell if trolling or serious. Just did this discussion the last page over
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 Ragnarok.Jukiro
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By Ragnarok.Jukiro 2019-06-07 10:07:02
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A little bit of both after the derailing--
I did see for R15 Kikoku its basically Fudo Masamune/Gokotai or Kanaria, correct?

How about for R0? And were those suggestions for every REMA?
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By Fayona 2019-06-07 10:40:58
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I’m in the camp that both Fudo and Gokotai are wasted in offhand. Fudo because on any relevant content you’re probably attack capped. Goko a little more complicated. If you’re using hybrid it’s a great option but I’d rather use a Well augmented Kanaria for most things. I don’t see any reason why rank points would ultimately effect your choice of offhand unless prior to RP you had Acc issues or you were using TP bonus katana in offhand.

However, I’m no expert just my 2 cents.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-06-07 12:24:46
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Fayona said: »
I’m in the camp that both Fudo and Gokotai are wasted in offhand. Fudo because on any relevant content you’re probably attack capped.

That's a MASSIVE assumption that is very likely untrue in a lot of realistic scenarios like Divergence wave 3 & NMs, VD Ambu, higher end Geas Fete. If anything, "relevant" content is the stuff where there is a lot more risk of not being capped.

It's all highly dependent on buffs/target. A couple other points to keep in mind are that Geomancy is nerfed on Divergence NMs, and NIN uses quite a bit of TP gear that lacks much attack (e.g., Kendatsuba, Adhemar hands).

Is it possible for you to be capped on high end stuff? Sure, it wouldn't be that surprising when you have SV Bard songs + Chaos Roll + Armor Break/Tachi:Ageha + Bolster/BoG GEO Atk+/Def- bubbles... Is it a given? HELL no. Especially if people aren't composing parties to give the NIN optimal attack buffs with BRD+COR+GEO (not that shocking to think you might not have all of that).

So, a well prepared NIN really needs both of the following, chosen based on the situation:

(1) One of Fudo or Gokotai. Definitely nice to have as a high acc/atk offhand option, and both fill that role. I'd go Fudo first since the atk buff is so substantial, and it can also double as a killer niche mainhand for tanking if you go path C. However, Gokotai is fine for offhand purposes and could save you some gil if your main concern is just having a high acc offhand option (assuming getting the shiny weapon isn't a block).

(2) Kanaria (TA/acc/atk) is your go-to offhand when you don't need the acc/atk from #1.

Ragnarok.Jukiro said: »
How about for R0? And were those suggestions for every REMA?

No real difference R0-R15. Pretty much the same for all weapons, except Kannagi can still make good use of a Taka offhand.

Kanaria augs might differ a bit if for some reason you were to use a Nagi mainhand (I haven't really looked into it, but STP could be more useful than TA for Mythic) - but that's irrelevant, because don't use a Nagi mainhand.
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-06-07 12:27:43
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Gokotai is a good all-rounder. Lots of accuracy (the most!) and ranged accuracy, magic accuracy too, and DEX/AGI for WS mods. It's good for nuking and hybrid WS, too. And like Sechs pointed out, it's "free" if you have a pulse weapon. Versus Fudo Masamune that's a big selling point to me. I probably wouldn't prioritize su5 for ninja for this reason.

It also looks hot as hell. That was the final selling point in me making Goko first, lol. I just use it in my highest accuracy swap, though, and yeah, well-augmented Kanaria in offhand otherwise.

Any chance we could get Gokotai added to the OP's guide? It should be right under the REMA and Fudo Masamune in hierarchy.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2019-06-07 12:35:51
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I suppose I can get to it.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-06-07 12:41:08
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Those are the only 3 offhands worth discussing for all weapons, unless you're considering tanking, then Shuhansadamune is the tanking offhand of choice. It's really that cut and dry. I don't even bother using my capped Ochu anymore, but it gets an honorable mention for Metsu/Ten. However, 85% of the time on Ninja, i'm using Kanaria. I just can't give up that TA, STP, FC spread.

No matter which one you pick, they're all relatively close and not entirely make or break per REMA main hand, so there is no clear cut heirarchy between them. It just depends what you're doing, your buffs gear target and personal preference.
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-06-07 12:41:43
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Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
I suppose I can get to it.

That would be awesome! I think it's a worthy weapon, especially for aspiring ninjas who don't aren't planning on making a REMA.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-06-07 12:42:55
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Another note if Gokotai is a hassle for you (pulse weapon) and you don't want to pay for Fudo Masamune...

Su4 katana (Mochizuki Shinobi-gatana) serves the same purpose as both of those as a high acc/atk offhand, and isn't that far behind them. Retains the handy Shadows:Attack gimmick, and retains use as a great path C tanking mainhand option (probably the 2nd best choice, I'd even use it over a Nagi). It's only like 10-15mil on most servers.

Kaja katana is also a similar option that's *free* (and can eventually be updated when you get pulse weapons), though it does lack the additional atk and tanking utility of the fairly reasonable Su4.
 Ragnarok.Jukiro
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By Ragnarok.Jukiro 2019-06-07 12:59:33
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Thanks for the responses, part of my reason for asking was also to see if any of the REMA are justifiable in offhand.
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By Asura.Kusaregedo 2019-06-07 13:07:21
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offhand nagi for enmity!
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-06-07 13:13:20
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Ragnarok.Jukiro said: »
Thanks for the responses, part of my reason for asking was also to see if any of the REMA are justifiable in offhand.

Nope. All NIN RMEA = mainhand only.

Offhand losing Relic Atk+ stat and AM, Empy/Mythic AM, and Aeonic TP Bonus means they lack the tools to beat the other better offhand options.

If Kannagi had a DEX or STR attribute instead of AGI it might have had more of a chance, but AGI makes it impractical as an offhand (Hi isn't gonna be worthwhile outside of SC purposes for non-Kannagi mainhands). That's unlike some other DW jobs that have used Empys as viable offhands (i.e., Almace and Twash having DEX that was useful for significant WS).

Asura.Kusaregedo said: »
offhand nagi for enmity!

Doesn't work offhand. BOOM macro piece onry!

(Shuhansadamune best enmity/tanking offhand)
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-06-07 13:34:02
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Fayona said: »
Fudo because on any relevant content you’re probably attack capped.
Yeah right! Everybody runs with 8 Soul Voice Songs, 4x Rolls, 10 Box Steps on each target and BoG Fury/Frailty.
Also they do not engage until Frailty is up (takes 2-3 seconds from when the GEO tagged the target) and boxc step is up to 10.
I KNOW RIGHT?

Realistically there's plenty of content where you won't be attack capped.
Unless you're running with Bolster/Idris/Frailty and swapping bards, you're actually gonna be uncapped in the majority of "recent" content.


Quote:
a Well augmented Kanaria for most things.
A well augmented Kanaria can be awesome, just like a Perf Ochu, if you don't need too much acc. Or the JSE katana too can be nice when you need acc and can make good use of the -enmity.
Less time spent re-casting utsusemi because the monster won't turn around to face you => more dps.
So, situationally, that Katana can be great too.

Problem with Ochu and Kanaria is that to get a perf ochu or good enough augs on Kanaria it could take you so much time/gil that you'll have more luck buying pulse cells or the Fudo Masamune for 150m.
I'm not joking.
It's random, period.
You could be done within 10 stones or you could be far from done after 5000.

Don't think any of the mentioned options is absolutely OMG SO MUCH BETTER than the ones I just mentioned. They're all very situational and Perf Ochu clearly gets an edge when magic damage/bursting is involved and with WS mods, but is clearly behind when you need acc.

BUT, if I were to pick one and only onegeneral-purpose Katana, my choice would totally go for Kaja/Gokotai.
Easy to make, doesn't cost gil (in theory), has stats for pretty much every situation and it also looks good!

If someone doesn't want to be bothered with having 2000 OH katanas for different situations AND he can't be bothered to spend years augmenting a Kanaria, then yeah that's the katana I would warmly suggest. Fits pretty much every situation, really.
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By Asura.Cicion 2019-06-07 14:21:25
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Gonna play devil's advocate here but i think being attack capped during tp phase is one of the last things you should be stressin about.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-06-07 14:40:44
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For a job that is the master of dual wielding things, All of the stats on Ninja's REMAs should work in both hands, with the exception of conditional ones like Aftermath. That's always been something that bothered me about those weapons.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-06-07 14:53:19
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Asura.Cicion said: »
Gonna play devil's advocate here but i think being attack capped during tp phase is one of the last things you should be stressin about.

lul have you even seen the type of ***that goes on here. attack capped is THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
For a job that is the master of dual wielding things, All of the stats on Ninja's REMAs should work in both hands, with the exception of conditional ones like Aftermath. That's always been something that bothered me about those weapons.

FTFY
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2019-06-07 14:58:20
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I wish I could force you all to explicitly say what cRatio limit changes your offhand.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-06-07 15:55:23
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Asura.Cicion said: »
Gonna play devil's advocate here but i think being attack capped during tp phase is one of the last things you should be stressin about.

But that's really not all we're talking about.

1) Compared to Kanaria, Fudo/Gokotai also have significantly more accuracy and ranged accuracy (for Daken) - which tends to be very relevant in the exact same kinds of situations where you might be running with uncapped attack during TP phase. So you're still gonna want the high acc/atk option for your offhand.

2) It's not just TP phase, offhand weapon attack affects pDIF during WS too. Potentially more valuable there (though, there's some legitimate argument that NIN can take more advantage of white damage than a lot of jobs)

3) And, I mean... even when we're talking TP phase, Fudo in particular provides a LOT of attack. Up to Atk+105 with full shadows is nothing to scoff at, even when it's "just" for TP phase. More significant for NIN than some jobs, since we hit so many crits with Innin + TP gear like Kenda/Adhemar (and even more meaningful for Kannagi with Empy AM really pushing white damage).


Asura.Sirris said: »
Gokotai is a good all-rounder. Lots of accuracy (the most!)

This is not true, Fudo Masamune has the most. You're probably forgetting that Fudo has 269 katana skill (and acc+50) versus Gokotai 250 skill (and acc+40/DEX+15).
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-06-07 16:23:13
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He was talking about Fudo and Gokotai as offhand.
The acc bonus granted by skill doesn't transfer to MH, whereas the bonus granted by +acc and +dex does.
So, as an offhand, Gokotai gives slightly more acc (and slightly less racc) than Fudo Masamune.
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 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-06-07 17:14:12
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Yep, was talking about offhand.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-06-07 21:16:36
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Asura.Sechs said: »
He was talking about Fudo and Gokotai as offhand.
The acc bonus granted by skill doesn't transfer to MH, whereas the bonus granted by +acc and +dex does.
So, as an offhand, Gokotai gives slightly more acc (and slightly less racc) than Fudo Masamune.

Huh? I get that the Acc+ and DEX+ apply to both hands and skill does not. But higher skill on the offhand weapon still improves acc on that hand, and Fudo has a skill+19 edge for the offhand hits.

a) Offhand Gokotai is a net gain of Acc+51~52 to each hand.
b) Offhand Fudo is a net gain of Acc+50 to each hand, plus another roughly Acc+17 more than Gokotai to the offhand only (due to higher skill)

IDK about you, but I'd happily trade away one mainhand acc (and whatever small amount of dDEX crit rate the DEX+15 gives you) for about Acc+16 on offhand (and Racc+10 for Daken). Again though, some of this is a little nitpicky and I wouldn't begrudge anyone for not wanting to spend on a Fudo when Gokotai fills a similar role.

Also, if max mainhand acc is your only concern...
An offhand Shigi beats all other options for what it adds to mainhand acc (OR cumulative acc granted to both hands).
* Acc+77 boost to mainhand (acc+ roughly 26~27 over Fudo/Gokotai)
* ~10 less offhand acc than an offhand Fudo due to weak skill
* ~6 more offhand acc than an offhand Gokotai

I tend to find my Fudo's hefty atk+ worthwhile in situations where I care about high acc though, so I don't really pull the Shigi out often these days (and Shigi also causes quite a hit to offhand white damage thanks to its low DMG). It's not a totally insane choice for max acc applications though, or if for some reason the Enm-10/DT-5% have value to you in a given situation.
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By Siren.Kyte 2019-06-07 21:34:22
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Offhand has a lower accuracy cap, so some of that is eaten up simply by being capped at 95% versus 99%.
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By Boshi 2019-06-08 11:29:32
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I’m sure Tauret is competitive offhand
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By Asura.Illuminate 2019-06-08 11:39:33
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Question: DM augment on a kanaria I have netted me STR+6 DEX +11 and WSD +6%. If I offhand this, do the stats win out for say Blade: Ten versus a fully augmented Ochu?

Been looking for a Blade ten spreadsheet but having had any luck as of yet...
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2019-06-08 11:53:35
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Really? Cuz the one in the OP works perfectly fine for this unless I'm missing something.
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