The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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2018-08-14
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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-08 12:54:26
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I did a few runs early on in the month on NIN, but was not using Blade Ten. The damage was in the 10-13k shuns. It wasn't horrible, but definitely not as high as I could have pushed it having the sets I have now. I have seen CORs pump 25k Savage Blades regularly on Dullahan, so I'm not convinced he resists physical melee damage as much. Hell, on WAR, I have a hard time not pulling hate. My DRG was doing acceptably.

I guess the idea behind the 3 NIN method was having one purely as a tank, and the other 2 can be superbuffed out the bandwidth and spam ws at will, with migawari up. BRD caps haste, GEO frailty/Fury and can probably toss a bolster svcc for a faster kill, assuming tank can hold dullahan's attention. The time it takes to force Boil from a standard melee party might actually make NIN method faster. Of course, Ranger method seemed to me to be the fastest this month, so nothing was competing with that.
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By Afania 2018-03-08 13:07:08
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Ranger method seemed to me to be the fastest this month, so nothing was competing with that.


I've went with pretty avg geared geared COR(no oshosi for TS, no AF+3 body, no relic +3 etc), even then clear speed was about 7.5 min if nobody MPK tank. If I go with COR that has better gears clear speed can be push to 6.

Not saying it's impossible but from my experience ranged setup is just tough to beat by melee, and doesn't require good gears to do semi efficient runs.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-08 14:16:07
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Afania said: »
Not saying it's impossible but from my experience ranged setup is just tough to beat by melee, and doesn't require good gears to do semi efficient runs.

Yeah, this is really what it came down to. It's not that it's impossible to throw a bunch of NIN at it and win, and if somebody does that, more power to them.

But for my LS groups, our NIN attempts were FAR less efficient than the relatively painless ranged strats (and all of our solid NINs also have similar or better quality RNG or COR available). We had no real incentive to tweak the NIN setup to its maximum potential when there was such a gap between that method and the ranged approach for us.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-10 01:13:10
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Got a nice Chi tonight. Didn't have sandstorm. Fury chaos sam's innin berserk aggressor

 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-12 15:02:38
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Re: Mochizuki +2/+3 body and legs:

1) Why the f couldn't they put Daken+10 on something that DOESN'T have a (typically detrimental) DW+9?

2) LOL legs are the piece that gets WSD+10%? Grr...

But still, +3 legs are prob the new best Ten/Hi/Metsu piece (all of which use different pieces now, so also consolidates three WS items into one). Even when capped Atk they're looking to be BiS by a modest amount (except for Hi, where Mummu+2 look like they still win if atk capped), and obviously all that Atk makes them even better if you're uncapped.

Whether that's worth the significant cost for what might not be a huge gain, IDK. Guess it's also worth considering that a DW+10 piece can have some utility in low buff situations (though perhaps hitting cap with other slots comes out better overall).

Sure woulda been nice if they just made legs some weird mega-DW piece and gave body the WSD instead!
[+]
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-12 15:40:07
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I know its a massive attack bonus over hiza +2 legs...but will those really knock byakkos 119 out for metsu?

Tbh I was hoping they'd throw us something like quad attack on the body so to maybe push it to being better than adhem +1 body in lowhaste
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-12 16:18:12
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Granted it's quite definitely an upgrade, I'm not sure I would definie it a "massive update" over Hizamaru+2

Mochizuki+3 compared to Hiza+2
-8 STR
-6 acc
+37 att
-X STP (DW+10 coverts into STP- if you're at attack delay cap)
+3% WSD

It's totally a noticeable increase for stuff like Ten, not sure it's "massive" though, especially if you're attack capped.

Unconvinced it beats Mummu+2 for Blade: Hi as well. Attack is nice but gets diminished returns on crit WSs like Blade: Hi.
Mochi+3 has like ~10 agi difference (which is a lot), no crit+, less acc and WSD+10.
Think they're pretty close. Mochi would win if your crit hit rate is capped, if it's nowhere close to cap I think Mummu will win, especially if you get the set bonus from equipping the legs.

For Metsu it's probably a winner, at least in uncapped att situation, but probably always?
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-12 16:19:31
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Oh and concerning the body, it's funny the body's augment enhances Sange.
When you have Sange up, Daken+ stat is virtually useless, right?
Ironic.

Dunno, unconvinced by body and legs.
Still want Head and at least +2 hands though.
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-12 16:22:58
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Was really hoping to see a Set bonus :Attack Ratt Mab+ :(
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-12 16:30:17
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Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
Was really hoping to see a Set bonus :Attack Ratt Mab+ :(
Nyarlko on BG forums claimed the Set bonus uses the same equipment slot as the dynamis augments.

I can think of a few exceptions to this "rule" but maybe she's right.
/shrugs
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-03-12 16:39:15
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Even if nyarlko is right, nyarlko is never right.

With that said, HQ abj gear has set bonus and augment.

Omen was released december, they had to add set bonuses after the fact because of how poor the af+3 was 4 months later.

Quote:
03-09-2017 06:51 AM #4
Gildrein
+2 and +3 versions of item level 119 artifact armors now have set bonuses.

I wouldn't be surprised if relic still gets att ratt mab setbonus due to what complete garbage most of it is, just like af had to.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-12 16:47:52
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Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
I know its a massive attack bonus over hiza +2 legs...but will those really knock byakkos 119 out for metsu?

It's the WSD+10% that is the big deal for Metsu. No DEX kinda blows, but all Jokushu really had going for them was a lot of DEX in a slot where that's really rare, for a WS with a heavy DEX mod. If Mochizuki had actually received some DEX, they'd be OMGamazing for Metsu (and potentially even great for Shun, with a DEX/atk combo)... but alas, that's fantasy.

From a little playing around on spreadsheet, for Metsu it looks like generally things stack up as Mochizuki +3 > Jokushu > Samnuha (max) > Mochizuki +2 (and some wild DEX/WSD Herculean options could slot in there somewhere, but without crazy DM values shouldn't be BiS). Even when you're attack capped, Mochi+3 look to be the winner... but it's a pretty close call, so the massive expense of Relic+3 gear is a definite consideration.

Now, Mochi+3 being slightly better for all of Ten/Metsu/Hi makes them a little more appealing. Still prob not appealing enough for me to invest in them at current prices though.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Granted it's quite definitely an upgrade, I'm not sure I would definie it a "massive update" over Hizamaru+2

It's totally a noticeable increase for stuff like Ten, not sure it's "massive" though, especially if you're attack capped.

Yeah, you're pretty much right on. It's an improvement, but a really expensive one for what you get.

Quote:
Unconvinced it beats Mummu+2 for Blade: Hi as well. Attack is nice but gets diminished returns on crit WSs like Blade: Hi.
Mochi+3 has like ~10 agi difference (which is a lot), no crit+, less acc and WSD+10.

Looks to me from several spreadsheet comparisons that Mummu+2 will generally win if attack capped, Mochi+3 when you aren't attack capped. Fairly close either way, but again, the bigger draw of Mochi+3 is that they're useful for multiple WS and not just Hi. (though the pieces Mochi+3 legs replace are "free" Ambuscade/Escha drops, so take that for what you will).

FWIW, don't forget that Mummu+2 also have set bonus DEX/AGI with ring + up to 4 armor pieces. That still doesn't seem to be enough to overcome Mochi+3 when you can use all that attack on the relic piece, but it's another point that helps Mummu+2 here (especially in capped situations).
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-12 17:42:41
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Last time I checked the impact of every single agi point was huge even in uncapped situations, for Blade: Hi. Pretty confident Mummu holds pretty well when you factor the +8 DEX/AGI (AGI difference with Mochi becomes ~18, it's a ton)
Whereas for Attack... well attack clearly matters when uncapped, but it had a smaller impact than on other non-crit WS last time I chedked on the spreadsheet.

Regardless of all this, did I already say lolbladehi? :P
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-12 22:16:57
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Regardless of all this, did I already say lolbladehi? :P

Hi isn't as bad as it used to be! But yeah, that's not the main draw for Mochi legs, Blade: Ten is. Metsu/Hi gear is just bonus.

That being said... I'm getting better results in practice with Kannagi and Hi spam than the spreadsheets would suggest! Bit of a sacrifice to WS damage, in exchange for really strong white damage/crits (and the downside is way less SC flexibility, hope you like Darkness). But I don't think that would be as viable if we didn't have all this new-ish solid Hi gear that makes it less of a liability. Hachiya +3 head, Mummu+2 x4, Mummu ring, etc...

But yeah... Heishi and Ten spam is a thing. And that does like STR/WSD gear.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-03-12 22:30:18
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Anytime we can increase our critical rate/critical dmg, kannagi and HI are going to have an easier time performing well. :D
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-12 23:15:03
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Still want Head and at least +2 hands though.

What for? I may have overlooked something. For NTE money savings? Didnt see anything else on the hands that wow'd me.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-12 23:18:19
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cast enough and they practically pay for themselves
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-12 23:29:37
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I see. Would have loved for shurikens to be considered "ninja tools" since I do spend a good bit on those as well. I have a NIN handshard, guess I'll keep it around.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-13 02:24:46
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
What for? I may have overlooked something. For NTE money savings? Didnt see anything else on the hands that wow'd me.
For NTE midcast on selfbuffs, exactely.
Useless but I'm biased for NTE, I currently use the +1 version and upgrading to +2 at least shouldn't cost me too much if I just wait until I get the Shard drops (already have 2).
+3 is a different story, don't plan on goin there.
Well eventually, 1 year from now when and if the price will have dropped and/or I happen to get 3 more shards and 3 voidhands for free lol.

But yeah, useless, don't follow my lead I'm dumb but hey! At least I'm aware of it lol
You wouldn't even use them for Enfeebling and Elemental Ninjutsu btw, because for midcasting those you want Macc and/or Mab.
But for self stuff like Utsusemi, Migawari and all their friends it's nice.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-13 14:39:24
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
cast enough and they practically pay for themselves
Asura.Sechs said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
What for? I may have overlooked something. For NTE money savings? Didnt see anything else on the hands that wow'd me.
For NTE midcast on selfbuffs, exactely.

It only takes ~50,000+ Shikanofuda saved (with NTE proc) at current relic upgrade prices to make your gil back! So, at 2% higher NTE rate than Mochizuki+1, that's ~2.5 million self-enhancing Ninjutsu casts! Let's be honest, that's insane and the NTE+2 that you get from upgrading is not going to make your money back for years of normal NIN use, if ever. You'd probably have to load up your inventory with ninja tools and write a script to continuously cast while AFK to even come close.

Current price for the Ore, Stinger x3, and 3x Beastmen Medals (or the now sellable 2 Handshards) = roughly 10M gil. At ~200 gil per Shikanofuda (19k/stack from Curio moogle), that's over 50k ninja tools. And that's just assuming Shika tools for simplicity's sake, not ~5k/stack Shihei.

I know that prices on Handshards/Metals will eventually drop, but even if they get considerably cheaper we're still talking about millions of gil. Just for argument's sake, let's say Ore (1.1mil) + Stinger x3 (1.5mil) + two super cheap handshards (200k each) = 3 million gil for upgrade. That's STILL going to need to save ~15.7k Shikanofuda to break even. That's about 790k self-enhancing ninjutsu casts with 2% more NTE.

And the "I farmed the shards myself" argument is weaker now that shards are sellable - since you could turn them into money.

By no means am I saying not to get blue/yellow boxes just to do it. I've done similar for jobs for completion's sake, or because I just love a job - it's the sole reason I got 100% of 119 AF/Relic/Empy+1 for 15 different jobs. But trying to say NTE is actually worth the upgrade price is not an economically rational argument. It's a vanity project, plain and simple.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-03-13 14:42:09
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
cast enough and they practically pay for themselves

Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
wall

And this, children, is why we don't try to use sarcasm via text.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-13 14:42:55
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Useless but I'm biased for NTE, I currently use the +1 version and upgrading to +2 at least shouldn't cost me too much if I just wait until I get the Shard drops (already have 2).

I have a NIN handshard I'd be willing to trade, if you have either a DRG Footshard or DRG Handshard. Would even accept RNG footshard in exchange.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-13 14:45:04
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
But trying to say NTE is actually worth the upgrade price is not an economically rational argument. It's a vanity project, plain and simple.

Who cares about paying for itself. Do you know how many times I have tried to cast Utsu/Miga/Kakka and I get the message "You don't have any ninja tools". These hands would, at the very least, reduce the amount of times that message has to pop up cuz I'm 80/80 inventory and can't afford to pop another shika stack.

(I'm kind of joking, but pretty serious too. I run through Shika stacks like crazy as is).
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-13 14:45:37
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
And this, children, is why we don't try to use sarcasm via text.

Austar's was sarcastic, I think. Sechs wasn't joking. :)

NP, <3 u Sechs, even when you're crazy.

Asura.Eiryl said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
wall

And don't tell me how to waste my time at work! ;)
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By Asura.Auburn 2018-03-15 03:21:44
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How outdated are these gear sets by now? I haven't played in over a year and I really don't know what sort of content to chase for upgrades at this point. I'd love to not be stuck in Herculean Hell if possible.
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2018-03-15 06:26:46
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According to the guide, it was last updated 2 months ago. What means they are pretty much up to date, since the only missing items would be Reforged Relic hands/legs/body +2/+3.
[+]
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-03-15 06:35:08
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Alas I wasn't joking indeed.
But hey guys I told ya it's a stupid idea! Don't follow it lol
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-15 13:18:23
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Auburn if you don't feel like dealing w/ herc augs once you get SU3 I see alot of Nins just use it as their max haste set and it doubles for a decent shun set too I'd think
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-15 14:47:52
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Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
According to the guide, it was last updated 2 months ago. What means they are pretty much up to date, since the only missing items would be Reforged Relic hands/legs/body +2/+3.

Yeah, the TP sets and most WS sets look pretty up-to-date to me (outside of brand new stuff, like Mochi+3 legs). Blade: Hi set would be the one exception that looks a bit outdated: I'd put Mummu+2 body/hands/legs/feet in there as a default, as well as Mummu Ring (though depending on target/buffs, might have some minor changes like Herc feet coming out better). I assume the set in the OP was put together before Mummu+2 gear was around.

The big thing where you can't get away with not making a good Herc piece is TP boots (but thankfully, those also tend to be BiS gear for all of the other melee jobs on the set). Otherwise, we're mainly talking about WSD pieces for Ten (and Metsu, for Kikoku users)... which do have BiS applications, but it's the kind of thing you can probably improve over time and use alternatives and still perform just fine. Lacking a top end Ten set might also influence your choice of WS - i.e., just use more Blade: Shun, and (blasphemy!) maybe look more closely at Hi for Darkness SC purposes if your Hi set is considerably better than your Ten WS set.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-03-15 14:54:32
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Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
According to the guide, it was last updated 2 months ago. What means they are pretty much up to date, since the only missing items would be Reforged Relic hands/legs/body +2/+3.


I even tried to make the date flag the first friggin' thing on the thread. lol
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