Multi Attk Build Vs Store Tp Build

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Multi attk build vs store tp build
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 Bismarck.Osaia
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By Bismarck.Osaia 2012-04-25 10:21:08
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This is the setup im currently going for. I have all the pieces but the body. At some point I will be aiming to make a store tp set for drg/sam. My question is are there any advantages/disadvantages to this setup, or is it overall inferior to a full store tp 5/6 hit build?


 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 10:29:58
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You're sacrificing a 29% increase in WS frequency, so yeah, there's a lot wrong with it. Don't reinvent the wheel.

And assuming that's a regain earring, drop it for a real one.
 Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2012-04-25 10:31:44
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X-hit, haste, then add multi-attack where you can.
 Bismarck.Osaia
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By Bismarck.Osaia 2012-04-25 10:34:33
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Thanks. I just wanted to know how much of a difference it made. Im kind of new to /sam.
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 10:40:43
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7 to 6-hit is an ~14% increase to WS frequency(and subsequently WS damage), 7 to 5-hit is an ~29% increase. Whatever means to multi-attacks you're using must, on average, be at least equal to that increase to be better. This applies regardless of your subjob, but you should virtually always be /SAM, so 5-hit is more than attainable.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-04-25 10:43:13
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Drop the porthos body and lolregain moonshade.

Then focus on a 5hit/sam and 6hit/war as Minjo suggested.
 Bismarck.Osaia
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By Bismarck.Osaia 2012-04-25 10:55:28
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Cerberus.Taint said: »
Drop the porthos body and lolregain moonshade.

Then focus on a 5hit/sam and 6hit/war as Minjo suggested.

Im assuming the tp bonus moonshade is better option?, and im currently looking up gear that will give me a 5hit, capped haste and still some amount of da/ta/qa. I think the floor 80/100 nyzul pants would be great and a store tp/haste belt (forgot name).
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 11:00:48
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TP bonus/attack, yes.
 Cerberus.Detzu
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2012-04-25 11:44:30
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In which situations porthos is useful? I personally thought of multihit ws souleater up. Any suggestion?
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 11:46:56
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Fairly certain it isn't explicitly useful for any job. I'll leave that for someone to confirm, though. I can tell you definitively that it is never good for a WS, Souleater or otherwise.
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-04-25 11:52:20
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Maybe it's ok for PLD tp? >_>
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 11:56:46
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Pretty huge hit to accuracy. I'd stick with AF3.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-04-25 12:14:16
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Pretty useless body that everyone has started TPing in....
[+]
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-04-25 12:15:02
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It didn't look great to me, but I figured there was some reason I was missing why everyone and his or her brother started wearing it.
 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2012-04-25 17:13:51
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Fenrir.Minjo said: »
7 to 6-hit is an ~14% increase to WS frequency(and subsequently WS damage), 7 to 5-hit is an ~29% increase. Whatever means to multi-attacks you're using must, on average, be at least equal to that increase to be better. This applies regardless of your subjob, but you should virtually always be /SAM, so 5-hit is more than attainable.

Slightly trickier than that, actually.

I set up drg/rdm in my spreadsheet so that I don't have any secondary effects from /sam or /war job traits. Used the gear set in the OP (using Gugnir 95), aside from the Moonshade (just used Aesir, there). That gives enough Store TP to end up with 14.6 TP during melee, 15.4 during WS, so a pretty clean 7-hit build.

With no outside buffs or debuffs, no jumps (because jumps affect the result in an indirect way), using Stardiver, and vs DC Dynamis mob, DPS is 115.878. Average rounds per weaponskill is 5.48.

Now I add 15 Store TP to TP and WS sets, putting TP per hit at 16.6/17.4 for an easy 6-hit. DPS is now 124.675 (7.6% increase), and average rounds per weaponskill is 4.72 (note: it's not a simple -1 to average rounds since multi-attacks influence the results).

Now, the same thing with Haste and Marches:
Base: 228.842
+15 STP: 244.198

A 6.7% increase (a lesser increase because of the fixed time of using the weaponskill itself while haste reduces melee time).

Now add jumps:

No haste:
Base: 145.946
+15 STP: 154.312
Gain 5.7%

Hasted:
Base: 253.376
+15 STP: 267.980
Gain 5.7%


Overall, dropping from a 7-hit to a 6-hit was only worth 6%-7% more DPS, rather than the theoretical 14%.


Try again, dropping to a 5-hit. Added 40 total arbitrary Store TP to make TP per hit 19.9/20.7. Average rounds per weaponskill: 3.95.

Comparison with same config, 7-hit:

No haste, no jumps: 137.073 (+18.3%)
Haste, no jumps: 265.458 (+16.0%)
No haste, jumps: 166.171 (+13.9%)
Haste, jumps: 288.266 (+13.8%)

Rather than the theoretical 29% increase.


Now, going back to the basic issue, set up a comparison for drg/sam. Used Bukhis target, Dia 2, Hasso and Haste as the basics for buff/debuff.

It's basically a natural 6-hit while /sam, so the only question would be the value of moving to a 5-hit. Unfortunately reaching a 5-hit isn't actually that great.

First, going from a 6-hit to a 5-hit using the bare minimum Store TP necessary to drop average rounds per weaponskill only drops avg rounds from 4.67 to 4.27. It takes a fair amount of Store TP above that to drop the average rounds just a bit at a time, and you end up with a net loss compared to the gear you're swapping out.

Second, you pretty quickly reach the limit of decent gear choices with any useful amount of Store TP for drg. That makes a 'good' 5-hit build rather difficult to achieve.


How much of a difference? Well the OP's gear set is at 170.954, while the 5-hit build is at 166.149, so the OP's build is 2.9% ahead. I can't say that my 5-hit is optimal, but it's the best I can come up with offhand (not including neo-Nyzul gear). If I use Phorcys head and legs, I can get the 5-hit build up to 169.889.


Side note on Porthos: Porthos looks like the best body possible when gearing for 6-hit, though using Phorcys head and/or legs can get the overall result fairly close when combined with Lancer+2 body. If anyone has a better setup to suggest, I'd be interested in looking at it.
 Shiva.Galbir
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By Shiva.Galbir 2012-04-25 17:27:33
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Bismarck.Osaia said: »
Im kind of new to /sam.
Trying my best not to troll here. I just don't see how someone could get a 95 relic and be new to /sam. I really don't it baffles me.
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 17:30:51
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How does a set like this pan in your comparison, Mot



Hands are on the expensive side, but nothing impractical, particularly if you're able to build a relic weapon. Clean 5-hit with 3% less DA, 4% less TA, and a substantial increase to attack and accuracy.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-04-25 17:45:26
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Fenrir.Minjo said: »
How does a set like this pan in your comparison, Mot



Hands are on the expensive side, but nothing impractical, particularly if you're able to build a relic weapon. Clean 5-hit with 3% less DA, 4% less TA, and a substantial increase to attack and accuracy.


Good margin win there.

The one thing his spread sheets lack are more evasive mobs like Ig,Rex,Morta,Bis,PW.

When building my sets I use
120lvl 500def 530eva 120vit 120agi

Doesn't make the mob as high lvl as PW but its a really good estimate for harder endgame and hasn't let me down.
 Pandemonium.Anookulchandra
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By Pandemonium.Anookulchandra 2012-04-25 17:53:16
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Bismarck.Osaia said: »
This is the setup im currently going for. I have all the pieces but the body. At some point I will be aiming to make a store tp set for drg/sam. My question is are there any advantages/disadvantages to this setup, or is it overall inferior to a full store tp 5/6 hit build?

Thanks. I just wanted to know how much of a difference it made. Im kind of new to /sam.

Wait.. you have a relic polearm for drg.. and you are new to the ways of /sam? Even if you are new to the ways of /sam...

 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-04-25 17:54:31
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DRG can't wear Nomkahpa Mittens. Wish we could though. Gonna need a different option there.
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 17:55:07
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Hngg.. You're correct.
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-04-25 18:01:33
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DRG can't wear them because it's not DNC!
[+]
 Lakshmi.Rearden
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By Lakshmi.Rearden 2012-04-25 18:01:37
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Ogier's/Pho's +1/Mars's works in the same setup, loss of 3DA, gain STR/Acc.
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 18:04:44
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I was aware that Phos+1 is unfortunately part of an optimal DRG build, but I was trying to avoid using it as an example. Price aside, the rarity factor will be troublesome.
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By Lakshmi.Rearden 2012-04-25 18:11:48
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Not as rare as Nomkhahpa mittens :P

Edit: Are you actually needing the 5STP from goading belt in your setup?
 Odin.Skeero
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By Odin.Skeero 2012-04-25 18:13:37
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Im using this atm, and it is working out pretty nicely, probably a few better options. but not sure what else really i can do besides Ryunohige.

Use phorcys hands on fodder stuff, lancers on high tier VW if acc is needed.
 Fenrir.Minjo
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By Fenrir.Minjo 2012-04-25 18:16:04
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Hagneia Stone so you can get rid of that grip, and NQ Phos Belt if don't mind splurging for 75 HP(or +1 for capped haste and 75 HP)
 Shiva.Cziella
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By Shiva.Cziella 2012-04-25 22:21:44
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At the risk of being "That guy" how'd using that belt with 5% haste/Pet: 5% (for wyvern) turn out for Skeero's set up? (assuming you change AF3+2 hands to Brego to cap Haste?) I'm sure 5% haste for pet alone won't make a huge difference but if they can Empathy Haste that'd be +20%. Or that's some crazy talk about pet's haste :X?
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 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2012-04-26 00:00:28
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I also made a mistake. Was double-checking everything and found one of the jump gear configs was different between the two, penalizing the 5-hit slightly.

The Store TP on the Phorcys head/hands makes it viable to swap out the Rose Grip to Duplus, which actually does push it a bit ahead. Since the Nom mittens were incorrect, working through various hand options, the following are fairly close together:

Brego: 175.397
Timarli: 175.326
Dusk+1: 175.219
Ace's: 174.698
Lancer+2: 174.593

With the Ghillie+1 earring instead of Aesir (to match your set), the 6-hit is 171.112, which puts the 5-hit 2.5% ahead.

It also seems that for the 5-hit, I was going a bit overboard on the TP needed (the secondary hits on Stardiver make up the difference). I can drop the Phorcys head back to Lancer+2 and get 175.434 DPS with Brego hands, though some of the other hand options don't fair so well. Dropping Phorcys legs, however, completely kills it.

So with Phorcys legs, it's possible to make a 5-hit build that's better than a 6-hit. However without Phorcys (even just dropping to Rheic+3), it falls behind the 6-hit set.

The 6-hit build would need another 2% TA, or ~35 attack to catch up with the Phorcys 5-hit build.
 Bismarck.Osaia
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By Bismarck.Osaia 2012-04-26 20:30:11
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Shiva.Galbir said: »
Bismarck.Osaia said: »
Im kind of new to /sam.
Trying my best not to troll here. I just don't see how someone could get a 95 relic and be new to /sam. I really don't it baffles me.

Lemme rephrase. I'm primarily /mage 99.9% of the time. I dont have or want a active lets do this ***Linkshell. I have a very well geared 99 whm/rdm so i always have haste and all buffs. I mostly do small events, emp farming, etc with friends becus my rl job rotates my shifts every week (so having said ls is a virtual impossibility...ask Tribal LS). Now that ive begun to actually LIKE VW, i need a /sam gearset. Before when i /sam i ddnt bother with any store tp. I geared it as /mage - the mp gear. Now that i like /sam, i want to gear it as well as the next /sam (or better). DRG has been my main job for almost...7 yrs, no breaks taken. I have almost 99% of everything for drg in the game...and this lance was no different.
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