[Dev] Battle Balance Adjustments

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[Dev] Battle Balance Adjustments
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 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-02-06 03:31:06
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
Limbus for gil making, fine. That isn't much better than doing Salvage for gil making. It's getting updated but it isn't now, and that's why I didn't add it to my stupid list that I shouldn't of even made.

Isn't that a main reason a few people even do Dynamis? Not everyone is making their own Relic, I know plenty of people who farm it for gil.

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Don't even know why I post here sometimes, some of you take things way to damn seriously when I was just making a stupid point. That point being that SE has seriously *** up and made the majority of their events obsolete, that's all the *** list was meant to be.

Honestly, it seems as if you are the one taking it seriously. Just seems like you are very upset people disagree with your list. Why does it matter if they disagree? If it doesn't accurately cover what is relevant in the game, then it isn't correct and people will disagree with it.
 
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By 2012-02-06 03:32:16
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By Odin.Sheelay 2012-02-06 03:34:03
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SE should totally update Garrison next
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By 2012-02-06 03:34:39
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-02-06 03:35:01
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I like how everyone is ignoring the context of the original post that's being called into question and magnifying the one that's normalizing it.

Siren.Kalilla said: »
Proth, why would not having rajas break you compared to something slightly inferior? It's a damn good ring and I love it, but it isn't that great anymore. Not until SE picks up the pace and works out a way to upgrade them for 99 like they said they would 10 months ago.

The mixing and matching of store TP, haste, and other such stats is a delicate procedure. Rajas Ring makes it much easier and more lenient to provide more optimal parameters (especially considering that it's also a damn good weaponskill ring), for both newer players and older ones, than, say, an ACC ring or a hoard ring.

Point being made is, your list is very subjective, as is my response to it. Implying that CoP isn't worth doing simply because the content is outdated, thus missing out on the items that you could get for doing it, is silly. Just the same as saying that the content in Abyssea is outdated (aimed at level 80~95 capped players) but the items you get from it are not.

We all knew when the cap raise was coming, and it would have been an effort in futility to assume that 75 cap content would be relevant after we hit level 99. They're correcting that error by adjusting past content to be more suitable for higher level players. That plenty of the drops and other such devices of these dated events have stood the test of time should tell you something.

Just don't take it so personally, like you're being attacked. Your post was imperfect, and thus the imperfections led to disagreement in what should and should not be considered "outdated".
My issue is this: SE loves to use the word "Balance" for everything, yet with every new update the equipment just replaces what we JUST got. That does not promote a wide range of events, it does nothing but destroy the work they just did.

Regardless of what I titled the list of what content is being used by the majority of players today, SE is just creating more problems than they are fixing with these upgrades.

I like that they are coming, but it isn't going to fix anything until they use that word properly and actually balance out the events so we will have to do something from all of them. At the moment that is not happening and the only thing that is happening is players jumping from one event to the next.

I'm sorry for the label I put on my list, I could change it now but that doesn't really even matter. My point was to list what content was relevant today, and I may have forgotten a few things (and I may disagree with the importance of CoP today at this stage of level 99, so what that's my opinion and I never labeled my opinions as being facts (yea yea so what, my opinion needs to be corrected because its incorrect blah blah blah)) but I feel that my goal I set out to do when typing the list up was done fine enough, which was to list the length of the content in game and how much there really is, compared to what really people do today.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-02-06 03:35:20
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Make a post for it on the official forums and im sure they will be all over it.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-02-06 03:38:08
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I like how everyone is ignoring the context of the original post that's being called into question and magnifying the one that's normalizing it.

Siren.Kalilla said: »
Proth, why would not having rajas break you compared to something slightly inferior? It's a damn good ring and I love it, but it isn't that great anymore. Not until SE picks up the pace and works out a way to upgrade them for 99 like they said they would 10 months ago.

The mixing and matching of store TP, haste, and other such stats is a delicate procedure. Rajas Ring makes it much easier and more lenient to provide more optimal parameters (especially considering that it's also a damn good weaponskill ring), for both newer players and older ones, than, say, an ACC ring or a hoard ring.

Point being made is, your list is very subjective, as is my response to it. Implying that CoP isn't worth doing simply because the content is outdated, thus missing out on the items that you could get for doing it, is silly. Just the same as saying that the content in Abyssea is outdated (aimed at level 80~95 capped players) but the items you get from it are not.

We all knew when the cap raise was coming, and it would have been an effort in futility to assume that 75 cap content would be relevant after we hit level 99. They're correcting that error by adjusting past content to be more suitable for higher level players. That plenty of the drops and other such devices of these dated events have stood the test of time should tell you something.

Just don't take it so personally, like you're being attacked. Your post was imperfect, and thus the imperfections led to disagreement in what should and should not be considered "outdated".
My issue is this: SE loves to use the word "Balance" for everything, yet with every new update the equipment just replaces what we JUST got. That does not promote a wide range of events, it does nothing but destroy the work they just did.

Regardless of what I titled the list of what content is being used by the majority of players today, SE is just creating more problems than they are fixing with these upgrades.

I like that they are coming, but it isn't going to fix anything until they use that word properly and actually balance out the events so we will have to do something from all of them. At the moment that is not happening and the only thing that is happening is players jumping from one event to the next.

I'm sorry for the label I put on my list, I could change it now but that doesn't really even matter. My point was to list what content was relevant today, and I may have forgotten a few things (and I may disagree with the importance of CoP today at this stage of level 99, so what that's my opinion and I never labeled my opinions as being facts (yea yea so what, my opinion needs to be corrected because its incorrect blah blah blah)) but I feel that my goal I set out to do when typing the list up was done fine enough, which was to list the length of the content in game and how much there really is, compared to what really people do today.

Well, I think most gear since 90 has been kinda marginal. I quit before 99 cap though so I'm not 100% sure how much gear is really great from new VW but a lot of it seemed marginal gains when I glanced.

But now that the game is back at being "like 75 cap" expect a lot of marginal or linear gear coming out with nothing ground breaking.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-02-06 03:38:58
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I like how everyone is ignoring the context of the original post that's being called into question and magnifying the one that's normalizing it.

Siren.Kalilla said: »
Proth, why would not having rajas break you compared to something slightly inferior? It's a damn good ring and I love it, but it isn't that great anymore. Not until SE picks up the pace and works out a way to upgrade them for 99 like they said they would 10 months ago.

The mixing and matching of store TP, haste, and other such stats is a delicate procedure. Rajas Ring makes it much easier and more lenient to provide more optimal parameters (especially considering that it's also a damn good weaponskill ring), for both newer players and older ones, than, say, an ACC ring or a hoard ring.

Point being made is, your list is very subjective, as is my response to it. Implying that CoP isn't worth doing simply because the content is outdated, thus missing out on the items that you could get for doing it, is silly. Just the same as saying that the content in Abyssea is outdated (aimed at level 80~95 capped players) but the items you get from it are not.

We all knew when the cap raise was coming, and it would have been an effort in futility to assume that 75 cap content would be relevant after we hit level 99. They're correcting that error by adjusting past content to be more suitable for higher level players. That plenty of the drops and other such devices of these dated events have stood the test of time should tell you something.

Just don't take it so personally, like you're being attacked. Your post was imperfect, and thus the imperfections led to disagreement in what should and should not be considered "outdated".
My issue is this: SE loves to use the word "Balance" for everything, yet with every new update the equipment just replaces what we JUST got. That does not promote a wide range of events, it does nothing but destroy the work they just did.

Regardless of what I titled the list of what content is being used by the majority of players today, SE is just creating more problems than they are fixing with these upgrades.

I like that they are coming, but it isn't going to fix anything until they use that word properly and actually balance out the events so we will have to do something from all of them. At the moment that is not happening and the only thing that is happening is players jumping from one event to the next.

I'm sorry for the label I put on my list, I could change it now but that doesn't really even matter. My point was to list what content was relevant today, and I may have forgotten a few things (and I may disagree with the importance of CoP today at this stage of level 99, so what that's my opinion and I never labeled my opinions as being facts (yea yea so what, my opinion needs to be corrected because its incorrect blah blah blah)) but I feel that my goal I set out to do when typing the list up was done fine enough, which was to list the length of the content in game and how much there really is, compared to what really people do today.

If it's only your opinion then why are you getting so upset at people pointing out their opinions on why your opinion is incorrect to them? Why are you getting bent out of shape over it?

I personally think that a majority of the issue lies in the fact that there are two stages of the game. 1-30, and 99. There's no middle ground where the other content would be more available to players and more useful to them.
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By Artemicion 2012-02-06 03:40:46
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I foresee old gear getting stretched out with future upgrades. SE seems to be in the biz of recycling content, and what better way to expand the foundation of available level 99 gear than to make +1 and +2s of ZNM, Salvage, Einherjar gear?
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By Fupafighters 2012-02-06 03:41:37
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He is getting upset because you wont stfu lol. Kalilla is right though about the whole gear situation...the only thing i can disagree on though is the fact that some of this new gear does take alot of effort to get if your unlucky. SO some people can be stuck in that almost as good as the new stuff gear.
 
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By 2012-02-06 03:41:39
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By Artemicion 2012-02-06 03:44:29
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I actually liked doing ZNM. Because it gave me the opportunity to have a Final Fantasy XI version of Pokemon Snap.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-02-06 03:44:44
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I could be wrong but doesnt most MMOs tend to release new content that then makes old content to become dead?

at 75 cap, SE kept almost all events relevant which got us used to the way the game was. Hell good items still came from sky over all these years at 75 cap.

But it seems now instead of giving us new content to get new gear (well, besides legion and I suppose VW), they are just going to go back and revamp old content to make it all relevant again.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-02-06 03:46:09
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Sylph.Kimble said: »
I could be wrong but doesnt most MMOs tend to release new content that then makes old content to become dead?

at 75 cap, SE kept almost all events relevant which got us used to the way the game was. Hell good items still came from sky over all these years at 75 cap.

But it seems now instead of giving us new content to get new gear (well, besides legion and I suppose VW), they are just going to go back and revamp old content to make it all relevant again.

Pretty much... every MMO does this.You don't go into WoW and raid T1 dungeons when you're at T7.
FFXI had the disadvantage of stagnating at 75 and its general level of equipment for too long, letting the playerbase settle in to that nook and making it more uncomfortable to move on.

To expand on my previous post, too, I'd like to point out the sheer scope of content available in FFXI, and how many people they could possibly have working on revamping old content as compared to developing new level 99 content that we haven't done already. It isn't going to be a swift process.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-02-06 03:49:17
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Honestly, id rather keep moving forward and get new, fun content, then keep going back and revamping old content.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed doing it, when it was relevant, but even some events that I had done for years (sky, sea, limbus, HNM) got really stale and boring.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-02-06 03:50:02
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Sylph.Kimble said: »
I could be wrong but doesnt most MMOs tend to release new content that then makes old content to become dead?

at 75 cap, SE kept almost all events relevant which got us used to the way the game was. Hell good items still came from sky over all these years at 75 cap.

But it seems now instead of giving us new content to get new gear (well, besides legion and I suppose VW), they are just going to go back and revamp old content to make it all relevant again.
They do, that is the point. What is different between those and FFXI atm is that people are behind, and they still do content they are able to do with what they have.

In FFXI everyone can do everything that is important atm, so they don't have to sit back in old content and do that to get geared up to be able to do new content, they can just jump right in it.

This makes things fun for us, but just makes it harder for SE to please their customers because everyone is doing the same thing.

They just don't know how to get the game back to the way it use to be, where we had like 20 different events and you may be done with some of them but you still had others you could do. If you played long enough at 75 then you finished the majority of all events but that took a very long time to do. It would take a lot to make it that way again, and the only way to do that is to slow people down on getting gear they want, which is exactly what people are having problems with right now.

okay... maybe not that exactly. more like the system to get gear is the problem. I'm just saying that if you get gear fast, content isn't going to last long.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-02-06 03:53:04
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We've been level 99 for only a couple of months, it will take time to build the infrastructure back up to what it was. FFXI didn't start on day 1 of 75 cap with 20 things to do, it came progressively. While I do agree that doing only two events over and over for the current cap gear is mind numbing, old content still has enough relevant equipment and fun enough experiences, though augmented now, to make it worth doing, which was the entire point to begin with.
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-02-06 03:53:49
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You do the new content to outfit your character, why can't you also do old content that has relevant gear to outfit your character? If something isn't relevant, in terms of gear/character progression, then that means there is 0 reason to do it. Garrison would fit this example, CoP content would not.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-02-06 03:54:27
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Sylph.Kimble said: »
Honestly, id rather keep moving forward and get new, fun content, then keep going back and revamping old content.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed doing it, when it was relevant, but even some events that I had done for years (sky, sea, limbus, HNM) got really stale and boring.
I think that the old events do need rejuvenated and brought back, but I really only care about einherjar & nyzul. Salvage maybe, but they're just going to mess that up anyways.
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By Artemicion 2012-02-06 03:54:43
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
We've been level 99 for only a couple of months, it will take time to build the infrastructure back up to what it was. FFXI didn't start on day 1 of 75 cap with 20 things to do, it came progressively.

Indeed, based on what they did with relic +2 in the short time frame that 99 has become available, I think the old content upgrades will merely be a minor foundation to build upon for future content. Though I cannot help but feel the last two words are wishful thinking there.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-02-06 03:58:03
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I rather just leave old events and old events and work on new things. But I guess with as small as the team is now, its easier to just go back and re do things that is already in the game.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-02-06 04:00:08
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Tbh there's not much wrong with them maintaining old content, it just provides more things to do in the end. Not all of the people playing right now even got to experience it all in its prime.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-02-06 04:00:41
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Leviathan.Draylo said: »
You do the new content to outfit your character, why can't you also do old content that has relevant gear to outfit your character? If something isn't relevant, in terms of gear/character progression, then that means there is 0 reason to do it. Garrison would fit this example, CoP content would not.
I never made the comparison that CoP is like Garrison, I said that CoP wouldn't break you if you just started and didn't do it.

The rewards from it help, but it wouldn't break you unless you want to be an elitist. I think it is nice to have, and is a great bonus having, but I do not think it would break you not having things from CoP. I think it would enhance the jobs though but not break them.

Valefor.Prothescar said: »
We've been level 99 for only a couple of months, it will take time to build the infrastructure back up to what it was. FFXI didn't start on day 1 of 75 cap with 20 things to do, it came progressively. While I do agree that doing only two events over and over for the current cap gear is mind numbing, old content still has enough relevant equipment and fun enough experiences, though augmented now, to make it worth doing, which was the entire point to begin with.
I know it will take awhile to build it back up, my problem I have with what they are doing atm is everything is replacing everything that they just did a year ago (abyssea up til now).

It isn't true with every single piece of gear in previous content, but it is happening enough. Then after they release the gear and stuff they have to re-balance the jobs out because they didn't do the work correctly in the first place. Yes, it could just to be ready for future content but then they should be balancing that gear out and new JA/JT's if that were true.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-02-06 04:03:38
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Well I mean, the old content is still there to do to "experience" it and being a higher level cap now, you don't even need to get that many people together to do it.

Sadly, most people refuse to do it without some kind of a great reward. Doing it for the fun and experience is really enough for them.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-02-06 04:06:11
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Did you think that every piece of gear from level 80~95 would remain BiS? A lot of it is in the circumstances that those piece of gear were designed for. Without having something new and more powerful to strive to achieve, the game would get boring after a while, that's the entire business model behind a game like this. Extend the life by extending the content, and to extend the content you have to raise the bar of attainable player strength to make that content worth doing.

Sure some would only do it for fun, but that's the minority. Having the shiny apple as a reward at the end of a long hike to an enchanted grove (best metaphor ever) is what gets a majority of players motivated to play new content after they fight the monsters more than 3-5 times.
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-02-06 04:06:57
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Siren.Kalilla said: »

The rewards from it help, but it wouldn't break you unless you want to be an elitist. I think it is nice to have, and is a great bonus having, but I do not think it would break you not having things from CoP. I think it would enhance the jobs though but not break them.

What exactly classifies as "breaking" a character? I mean, you don't even need Abyssea to experience anything in the game. There are no gear checks for individuals in the vast majority of the content. I've seen gimp perle DD's and pinks get through all of VW on the backs of others.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-02-06 04:10:56
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Did you think that every piece of gear from level 80~95 would remain BiS? A lot of it is in the circumstances that those piece of gear were designed for. Without having something new and more powerful to strive to achieve, the game would get boring after a while, that's the entire business model behind a game like this. Extend the life by extending the content, and to extend the content you have to raise the bar of attainable player strength to make that content worth doing.

Sure some would only do it for fun, but that's the minority.
Okay I agree

I know most of it was just filler (a lot of the equipment was just previous gear models anyways).

I just don't see having every new event replace about 30-50% of gear in previous content being a good thing. Then again they do release a lot of equipment each major update, and a lot of it most players don't even touch or look at. Plus we can only carry a limited amount of gear so they can't really go crazy with the originality of pieces without players disregarding it to conserve inventory.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-02-06 04:11:57
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Precisely. There's only so many gear slots and so many things that a job can do before they run out of things to enhance without stepping on the toes of previous gear pieces.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-02-06 04:13:02
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I don't expect all of it but most of it prob will. ***a lot of sky gear stood the test of time, and limbus, etc, so it wouldn't shock me if a lot of abyssea era gear will stay the best.

There will be players that always want the best of the best, even if its a small upgrade (going from +12 str to +13 str, no matter how much work and genral BS it might take to get it)

Just like there will almost be a part of the player base that rather not deal with that for a small upgrade.

A few events were like that at 75 (ZNM comes to mind) that basically a lot of people didn't even want to bother with it because the gear wasnt that great of an upgrade to what was around.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-02-06 04:16:54
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Abyssea gear will remain immense in a lot of circumstances, the weapons especially. Not all gear has been phased out, you see, just some of it. That goes for most any 75 era endgame event up until Heroes of Abyssea.

It's natural progression, and we likely won't see the end of it until they unplug the servers.
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