FFXI Equations/Statistics Thread

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FFXI Equations/Statistics Thread
 Phoenix.Dabackpack
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2011-12-07 20:39:46
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Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
Player TP Gain should have a section.

Dual Wield needs more

Also worth mentioned that other factors such as DMG, Attack, MAB, Defense, etc have decreasing returns to go along with DA/TA/QA.

Will do. Still working on it, so I just added that last section to make it seem a bit more complete. Good points though.

Gonna take a break and draw for now I think.
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-12-07 20:47:03
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Hand to Hand is off.

Base Damage is determined by ((Skill*.11)+3) + Weapon DMG
The Weapon Rank is determined by the DMG on the weapon only.
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By Asura.Vrytreya 2011-12-07 21:20:04
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I think a lot of time people asked "Which one is better? this many base damage or this many (r)atk?"

I'd like to propose a simple approximation to answer those questions
in the form of I need x attack to match a 1 base damage increase

To start, from the basic formula:
Damage = Base Damage * pDIF

We can derive:
1. ΔDamage = ΔBase Damage * pDIF
2. ΔDamage = Base Damage * ΔpDIF

Since pDIF is pretty close to linear equation, I can say cRatio ~= pDIF → Δatk ~= ΔcRatio ~= ΔpDIF
Basically, I'm saying the percent increase in attack reflect the percent increase in pDIF, since it's a linear, close-to-slope=1 function. So this approximation shouldn't deviate much from the real function.

Say you have 150 base damage and 600 attack :
- A 1 base damage increase is : 1/150 = 0.666..%
- A 4 attack increase is : 4/600 = 0.666..%
Both of the situations reflect the same final damage increase.

Drawing the connection :
For any situation where you have D base damage and A (r)attack and faced with ΔD (increase in base damage) or ΔA (increase in attack) solution to increase your final damage, just do a check on:

value = A/D

This value, is the amount of attack you need to have to beat 1 damage increase.
So, in the example above (150D, 600 atk), you need at least 600/150 = 4 attack increase to be as powerful as 1 base damage increase.
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-07 22:56:22
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Not sure if anyone posted the cure formula here but:

Cure Formula
Final Cure=((((((3×MND+VIT+3×(Healing Skill÷5))÷2))/Rate+Const)×Cure Potency)×Day/Weather)

Rate = The rate modifier affects how fast this cure goes up as you increase your stats
Const = General constant applied to the cure

The formula has 3 main parts to it: Cure Power, the Base, and the Final Cure.


Cure Power=3×MND×VIT+3×(Healing Skill÷5)
This is the component of the spell related to your stats


Base=(((Cure Power÷2))/Rate+Const)
This is the base component of the cure spell without equipment or weather


Final Cure=((Base×Cure Potency)×Day/Weather)
This is the actual amount of HP healed when the spell is cast

As a player you have control over the entire Cure Power formula as well as part of the Final Cure formula (to a point with weather and SCH).

Also, Divine seal is just simply:

Divine Seal=Final Cure×2

Okay, for our Base formula we have to determine what is the Rate and Const for each cure:
Spell Soft Cap Rate Const Min Cap
Cure 1 -10 10
20 2 5
30 57 29.125
Cure II 1 20 60
75 2 47.5
90 35.66 87.62
Cure III 1 70 130
160 2 115
190 15.66 180.43
Cure IV 0.6666 165 270
330 2 275
390 6.5 354.66
Cure V 0.6666 330 450
570 1 410
690 2.833 591.2
Cure VI 1 570
960 or 965 2.667 to 2.766
Spell Soft Cap Rate Const Min Cap
Pollen 1 -6 14
24 2 9
34 57 33.125
Healing Breeze 0.6666 -45 60
120 2 65
180 6.5 144.66
Wild Carrot 1 60 120
150 2 105
180 15.66 170.43
Magic Fruit 0.6666 130 250
370 1 210
490 2.833 391.2
Exuviation 1 40 60
70 2 55
80 57 79.125
Plenilune Embrace 0.6666 230 350
470 1 310
590 2.833 491.2

Examples:
Also:

1 MND = 3 VIT = 5 Healing Magic Skill
  • Healing Magic only contributes to cures every 5 skill levels

    • Adding 1 skill to 299 healing magic is just as effective as adding 9

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By Odin.Hitoseijuro 2011-12-07 22:58:49
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If people are willing to put some effort into this thread with info to help the site better with managing the technical bits of the game..........this thread needs to be purple-fied.

Honestly it would be so much easier finding this if it was purple-fied. Unless it gets sticky, even then, its not official unless its purple-fied.
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-07 22:59:33
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lol hito
 Phoenix.Dabackpack
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2011-12-07 23:24:00
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Odin.Hitoseijuro said: »
If people are willing to put some effort into this thread with info to help the site better with managing the technical bits of the game..........this thread needs to be purple-fied.

Honestly it would be so much easier finding this if it was purple-fied. Unless it gets sticky, even then, its not official unless its purple-fied.

I wish I was purple :(
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-12-07 23:58:57
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Kalilla just needs to hi-jack your thread and make it purple. I'm actually pretty impressed with how much useful info was posted so far.
 Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-12-08 14:45:41
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What about adding a fieldset at the start of the post? It should make it pretty easy to consult.
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2011-12-08 15:39:35
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Kalilla -- Your constants in the cure charts are a complete mess (not your fault, I know you're just copying from elsewhere). Technically they can work, but the formulations used to derive them are clumsy and sloppy, and don't even come close to explaining why those numbers are what they are. They also don't account for the true hard caps.

And because it's been annoying me, I went and tested the /2 portion of the base power, and found it to be valid. A 577 raw power (without the /2) Cure IV cured 398 instead of 399.

Here's a more detailed summary of the cure formula values. You can pretty it up if you like.

Raw power: 3 * (Mnd + Skill/5) + Vit (max of 1240)
Power used in calculations: Raw power / 2 (max of 620)

Code
Spell    Cure Cap Every..    Min Cured     Cure @Cap1     Cure @Cap2     Cure @Hard cap
Cure 1                 10           10             20             30                 40
Cure 2                 15           60             75             90                105
Cure 3                 30          130            160            190                220
Cure 4                 60          270            330            390                450
Cure 5                120          450            570            690                810
Cure 6            300/240          660            960           1140               1140


Spell       Base  Scale to 1st cap    Power at first cap    Scale to 2nd cap   Power at 2nd cap   Scale to 3rd (hard) cap
Cure 1       -10                 1                    30                   2                 50                       57
Cure 2        20                 1                    55                   2                 85                    35.67
Cure 3        70                 1                    90                   2                150                    15.67
Cure 4       165               2/3                   110                   2                230                     6.50
Cure 5       330               2/3                   160                   1                280                     2.83
Cure 6       570                 1                   390                1.28                620                     1.00


Spell       Base  Min Cured    Power needed to reach Min Cure
Cure 1       -10         10                                20
Cure 2        20         60                                40
Cure 3        70        130                                60
Cure 4       165        270                                70
Cure 5       330        450                                80
Cure 6       570        660                                90



Hard cap on all cures is achieved at 620 power (1240 raw power). Raw power of 1240 is 250 mnd, 250 vit, 400 skill.

The decimal values on scales should be considered fractions (eg: 15.67 == 47/3).


Formula (can be written a few different ways):
Code
If Power <= PowerCap1
  Cured = Base + Power/Scale1
else if Power <= PowerCap2
  Cured = Cure@Cap1 + (Power - PowerCap1)/Scale2
else
  Cured = Cure@Cap2 + (Power - PowerCap2)/Scale3

If Cured < Minimum
  Cured = Minimum



With this setup, it's easy to see where each of the power caps come from, why the minimums are what they are, etc. The only odd scaling numbers are the ones for reaching the hard cap, and that's only because the power needed for the hard cap is a fixed point, and the scale has to be adjusted to match that.

The blu spells are the same, just with different offsets.
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-10 01:36:13
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Interesting, I know my post left holes everywhere and wasn't really happy with it. I just wanted to get it started.

I have actually been looking into the past couple of days about the power and at what power the cures actually switch the const/rate.

I'm actually very glad you posted because I wanted to make a post here asking but you responded.
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-10 03:54:12
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I have a question Motenten, or anyone else who can answer this.

Raw Power:
NameMin PowerSoft Cap #1Soft Cap #2
Cure4060100
Cure II80110170
Cure III120180300
Cure IV140220460
Cure V160320560
Cure VI1807801240
Calculated Power:
NameMin PowerSoft Cap #1Soft Cap #2
Cure203050
Cure II405585
Cure III6090150
Cure IV70110230
Cure V80160280
Cure VI90390620


All the other numbers I can calculate the power to be exactly that except for Cure VI.

If 620/1240 is the power to max out all your cures why is it set for the soft cap at #2? I know that it doesn't go beyond that from reading various posts but I just don't know why.

If the rate and const stay rate:1 const:570 then the power should be 570/1140. Does the rate and const change after Soft Cap#1? What are the rate/const?

From BG's post they have 2.667 to 2.766 as the rate, which would make the const 907.529058867642 to 915.849602313813.

Using:
c = const
p = power
r = rate
b = base cure


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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-12-10 04:15:10
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Ugh! That was one of the prettiest formatted pages on bgwiki. Don't make me re-make it!
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-10 04:18:56
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lol, for cure formula?

The only thing missing was the powers, which Motenten pointed me in the right direction and I can figure them out now np except for the last one on Cure VI.

Confused :(

Other than that the page is fine. I just am not sure about Cure VI right now. I thought the const/rate didn't change but now I'm questioning it.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-12-10 04:56:39
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I can go to the test server and Brew/Cure VI myself if that would help.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-10 04:58:52
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No need, we know the caps for cures

I just don't know why the equation is messing up for cure VI after the first soft cap. It has to be the rate/const and I don't know where to begin to find that stuff.
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2011-12-10 17:18:53
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Kalilla said:
All the other numbers I can calculate the power to be exactly that except for Cure VI.

If 620/1240 is the power to max out all your cures why is it set for the soft cap at #2? I know that it doesn't go beyond that from reading various posts but I just don't know why.

There's a couple things that cause Cure VI to be the way it is.

First, there's the increase in interval values per cure tier. It goes up as 10, 15, 30, 60 and 120 for the first 5. The expected value for Cure VI would thus be 240.

The minimum cure amount for Cure VI is 660. If you had two 240 point intervals to that, 660+240+240 = 1140, the current second-level cap for Cure VI. So 1140 as "a" cap is perfectly normal. It's just that one would still expect the third, hard cap to be another 240 points higher.

However, we then need to look at the full possible range for the spell.

First, the amount of power needed to reach the minimum cure threshold is 90 power (increasing from the previous cure spell tiers of 60, 70, 80). Second, the absolute max power of 620. Therefore you only have a power gap of 530 points to cover all intervals. With 3 intervals, that would be 720 HP for 530 power. With 2 intervals, that's 480 HP for 530 power.

SE doesn't like to go much below 1 HP per power. Only Cure IV and V get a 2/3 scaling on their first interval, and none go below 1 in the second or third intervals. Even if we picked a 2/3 scale for the first interval of Cure VI, like Cure V had, that's still 160 power needed to reach the first cap, and would leave you 370 power for the remaining two caps (480 HP), which would require a scaling value of less than 1.

Overall, there's just not enough room within the confines of the fixed power markers to allow for 3 tiers of curing within Cure VI. Therefore they only used two tiers.


The second is that they apparently made a mistake in the first tier (though it could conceivably have been deliberate). From the following two posts in an old Cure VI thread:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/96043-Cure-VI-Formula?p=3973663&viewfull=1#post3973663
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/96043-Cure-VI-Formula?p=3978354&viewfull=1#post3978354

It was determined that the first scale change (and thus first cure cap) didn't occur until much later than expected, at 960 HP healed. It also shows evidence that the scale above 960 HP is such that it will reach 1140 HP at the hard power cap.

Therefore the first interval was 300 HP rather than the expected 240. This might have been done in order to put as much of an increase in amount cured as possible in the lower power region so as to improve the effectiveness of the spell overall.


Kalilla said:
If the rate and const stay rate:1 const:570 then the power should be 570/1140. Does the rate and const change after Soft Cap#1? What are the rate/const?

I'm not sure how you get power of 570/1140.

The rate for Cure VI up to the first cap is 1.0, and the first tier is a 300 HP interval. Therefore, 300 power for 300 HP cured. Since minimum power is 90, that means 390 total power to reach the first cap.

The remaining 230 power to reach the hard cap (620 - 390) has to heal the remaining 180 HP (1140 - 960). Therefore the rate for Cure VI up to the second cap is 23/18, or ~1.28.

Kalilla said:
From BG's post they have 2.667 to 2.766 as the rate, which would make the const 907.529058867642 to 915.849602313813.

Those arbitrary const values are not valid (well, technically valid, but not really useful). You only ever use the difference of the current power relative to the previous cap. Let's see if I can illustrate...

Cure 1, first tier
const (offset): -10
rate for tier 1: 1
first cap: 30 power

rate for tier 2: 2
second cap: 50 power
const for second cap: the amount cured at the first cap

If you have 40 power, you do not use power/2 + 5 {arbitrary, not intrinsic value}, you use (power - powerAtFirstCap) / 2 + (amountCuredAtFirstCap)

That is, whatever surplus power you have above a given cap is added to the amount cured by the the previous cap. You do not need a fully regressioned equation for each tier.

Byrth said:
I can go to the test server and Brew/Cure VI myself if that would help.

That's not necessary. It's already tested: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17433-Cure-Formula-Changes?p=237631&viewfull=1#post237631
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2011-12-10 18:04:07
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Nice, you gave me a lot more to think about.

I did a lot more testing last night to try and make sense of this problem I'm having with Cure VI.

Fenrir.Motenten said: »
I'm not sure how you get power of 570/1140
Straight from excel:

Code
=ROUNDUP((570-1140)/(-(1/(1*2))),0)

equals 1140

That equation:

Code
Power=ROUNDUP((Const-Base)/(-(1/(Rate*2))),0)

Has worked for the rest of the cures except the end of Cure VI, which tells me the Rate/Const isn't correct.

you pointed me in the direction though I think.

Quote:
From the following two posts in an old Cure VI thread:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/96043-Cure-VI-Formula?p=3973663&viewfull=1#post3973663
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/96043-Cure-VI-Formula?p=3978354&viewfull=1#post3978354

It was determined that the first scale change (and thus first cure cap) didn't occur until much later than expected, at 960 HP healed. It also shows evidence that the scale above 960 HP is such that it will reach 1140 HP at the hard power cap.

Quote:
So we can see somewhere between 959HP and 969HP (or 778PW and 805PW) the formula changes. Hence there must be a Soft Cap inbetween there, I think it's safe to assume this Soft Cap is sc1. Now we can define:

959HP <= sc1 <= 969HP, and
778PW <= PW(sc1) <= 805PW

From other Cure Tiers we know that sc1 must be a multiple of 5. So sc1 can only be either 960HP or 965HP.

We also know that PW(z) is always a multiple of 10. Going from there, PW(sc1) can only be either 780PW, 790PW or 800PW. However, quick math shows us that 800PW would be 970HP, and thus too high.

H = floor(800 / 2 + 570)
H = floor(400 + 570)
H = floor(970)
H = 970

Hence PW(sc1) can only be either 780PW or 790PW.

==================================================

Looking at Test #9 and Test #10 we can see that increasing PW by 83 increases H by 30HP under Soft Cap 2. Because floor(83 / (83 / 30)) = 30 and floor(83 / (83 / 31)) = 31 we can define x as:

83/31 < x <= 83/30 or

2.667 < x <= 2.766


Further testing is necessary to determine the exact Soft Cap 1, as well as x and y values under Soft Cap 2.

Soo... after the first soft cap at 780PW or 790PW the rate and const (offset) are... I'm not sure lol

The rate is:

83/31 < x <= 83/30 or

2.667 < x <= 2.766

but still not sure what the const/offset is lol.

Going to go over more of what you wrote and those posts and try to digest more.
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By Bahamut.Rulerofdarkness 2011-12-10 19:03:03
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Dabackpack, Kalilla, Motenten, Byrth, Vrytreya, Darkanaseur, Asymptotic, Prothescar said:
Super awesome posts explaining super awesome ffxi math, super awesomely.

My thoughts:
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