Occupy Wall Street Protests

/sigh, FTFY.... You were suggesting that Republicans conceived it and Dems didn't do anything to augment it after it was conceived, in an attempt to place blame. I'm simply correcting you, Dems we're responsible for its inception and passage as well as Republicans.

It doesn't matter that the people have bought things from businesses. Wall Street is primarily bankers and investors anyway.

If you look at banks, they make their money off of giving and taking money. They don't contribute any type of product other than the money they skim. Their one job was to make sure that the dollar doesn't fall to inflation, that it doesn't go to bad investments, that it serves the populace of the nation. Well guess what? They've failed their job. But what's the REAL problem? Despite being terrible at their job, they're still insanely rich. Despite destroying the dollar, they're not held accountable. Is this right?

In my opinion, the banking system is the problem that is at hand. But you can't blame people for abusing this system. It's only natural, and greed is not illegal. That's why you have to strike the law book. An abolishment of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, followed by the Treasury taking control of the issuance of a currency(one that is backed by something, rather than one backed by nothing).

But be well aware that people with the money to stop this will do everything in their power to. It's only natural that when you fight against the mafia that lives will be lost. The people against the system may be peaceful protesters, but when things get rough, you can be damn sure that the bankers won't be peaceful.

Stereotype much? You think they are all 22 yr olds? All hippies? I see a cross section of most of the country pissed off about what's going on.

Ask Egypt what a "bunch of dirty hippies" can start.

Who knows where it will lead, if anywhere. But should we all just stay quiet and go w/o a fight? Should we do nothing? If you feel as if your way of life is being taken from you, I would expect you to push back. They are doing what they can, they are speaking in the only way they feel they can make themselves heard.

Look at the picture 2 posts above yours. Look at the videos that have been posted. Turn on the news coverage. Its 99% 22 year old douchey hippies. Its not a stereotype if its true.

Do you think its something to strive for? (whether you think its possible or not)

They're the 1%. Notice the douchey hippies right behind them.

So how are their savings? Did they keep up-to-date with training throughout the years? Are they incapable of finding any other work at all? How are the kids' college funds? Can they earn scholarships or grants? Can they attend a community college for the first couple of years to help offset the cost? How old are the kids? Can the kids find any sort of work? How have other people
survived these circumstances?

Surely not everyone who's faced this situation over the years has starved and died on the streets. It can't possibly be easy, but people have made it through this and worse. You know they have, and without any of the yet-to-be-implemented ideas that the protestors are protesting for.

Also, you come at this with the idea that these people were, "screwed up the ***." It's well within the rights of a business owner to open, close, move, hire, fire, etc. I feel for the family, but they were never entitled to those jobs any more than the factory owner was entitled to their labor. He's as free to leave that agreement behind as they were. The jobs belong to him, not to the employees, not to the country. It's a misplaced sense of entitlement. Just because people need a job that doesn't mean someone else is entitled to give them one.

As for the bank, did the family shop around for their mortgage? Did their private appraisal agree with the bank's? It sounds like the bank was pretty shady, but the family did agree to the terms. Should the banks have been bailed out? I certainly didn't like the idea. Still doesn't mean they can write off every delinquent mortgage. Then they'll just "need" to be bailed out again even sooner.

It was conceived by Paulson and Bush, initiated from what was originally referred to as the Paulson Plan. It went to the floor, with only minor additional controls added by either party. Both sides were responsible for passage, neither had enough votes to pass it alone. It was signed by Bush. Following it's passage neither side made any real action to modify it to protect the taxpayers. There's no blame placed anywhere in there, it's simply what happened. That doesn't change regardless of how granular we take this.

Are you confused about the words initiated or conceived? Or just worried about your brand getting a 'blame' that didn't exist in the original statement?

There are areas where we could assign blame, like the fact that Henry Paulson was the former CEO of Goldman Sachs[$10b TARP funds], his assistant secretary in charge of administering the bailout funds Neel Kashkari was a former vice president of GS, and Judd Gregg was working on the TARP plan while owning a $1-5m investment in BofA[$10b TARP funds] (he also profited previously off investments in redevelopment that he then obtained federal earmarks for, and was hired as an international adviser to Goldman Sachs earlier this year), and all are Republicans.

Then again, Obama nominated Gregg for Secretary of Commerce after TARP (which both he and McCain supported) so placing blame is pointless, but hopefully you can see the difference between placing blame or not now at least.

Both parties were responsible because they're both beholden to lobbyists, $285b of the TARP money went to companies with $115m in lobbying and campaign contributions to both parties. I don't see the point of trying to stick up for either one.

I think it's something to strive for, but it's not something we can do as a nation, it's something we have to do as individuals. There is a difference.

Kind of off-topic, but this is one of the reasons why I <3 Ron Paul.


He's one of the few people not beholden to lobbyists. Most of his support comes from average people donating what they can afford. While other politicians get from fewer people, but large sums of money(obviously from businesses that expect some return, either through regulation or whatnot).

Do we really want a society where people have to face such hardships? I'm all for people working hard and earning what they get but some of the things faced, I mean do we really want people to have to go through that just to get by?

Those who have a sense of entitlement are truly a scourge on society because yes you do have to work to earn something and yes there is always going to be someone who makes or gets more than you. Just because someone gets more doesn't just entitle someone to get it as well. Can you really say that those that don't have jobs don't work hard or just feel they are entitled to everything? Do you really think entitlement is something only poor or struggling people have? It isn't.

The banks did a terrible job doling out loans in the past decade. During the housing boom they were handing out mortgages irresponsibly and giving people loans that should never have gotten them and they knew that but at the time they were making too much money. Now if you want a house and someone, who you supposedly trust to know whats going on, tells you hey yeah we can do this we can get you a home do you really think they're going to turn it down? They were not keeping good documentation nor were they practicing safe and protective methods. Many of the home forclosures today are stalled because they don't even have the proper documentation available. they know there was a loan and its not getting paid anymore but don't even have the proper documentation showing all the steps to get there. They did a sloppy job and just wanted to process more and more loans without hiring sufficient staff or taking the time to properly file.

I have no problem with people making millions but a requirement should be that they do their jobs correctly and well or be held accountable. While there may be some accountability on the part of the person involved the banks and other loan agencies have more experience and not only did the people get hurt but they hurt themselves as well which in turn led to a much bigger problem.

We all played our role in what happened now its time for all of us to take responsibility. If we let things return to the way they were then were only inviting it to come back again.

Could you please elaborate?

How much saving do you think a single income middle class ameican family would have? Being extremely generous say they had 20k personal and 10k for each of two childrens college. (Note IRL this is unlikely) So 40k total. How long can a family go on 40k with little to no income coming in? A year, 2? This crap started in 08, its 11 now. And yes, most in this situation are incapable of finding work.


This is true, but we are not dealing with an individual phenomenon. Go back to the Great Depression to find a comparable situation based on the sheer number of cases like this. That was not a good time.


This is a shortsighted view of the problem. We're not talking about 1 restaurant or a low care service or something. We are talking about massive corps that employ thousands, factories that entire towns and cities were built around. What is more important to you? A corp squeezing every penny it can get or the American peoples way of life? I'm not exaggerating here. This country is built upon the middle class and its purchasing power. You take away our ability to produce and consume and you destroy this country's foundation. If its entitlement to expect our nation to continue to thrive then so be it.


Do you know much about what was going on pre 2008? All the big banks are shady and all were doing the same thing. Whichever you picked it was just like you were choosing what shape of knife you wanted to get stabbed with. And lets not lie here, you take who has the lowest interest rate and seemingly best terms.

Not really off topic at all. It's part of the reason the OWS people are out there, and probably has a good deal to do with how well candidates like Paul and Cain are doing this year in the polls. People feel like both sides of the political system are being bought out from under them, and are looking for new ways to make their voices heard.

Paul probably won't get the nomination, just like the OWS protests are unlikely to make any real change at the moment, but the supporters are at least making it known that they exist and they're paying attention, whether the country at large wants to take them seriously or not.

Taking a break from this thread for a while, gotta get other things done. Gonna check back later and see where it goes though.

here are the main issues why the actual system will never work:

1. taxes (i hope that's the english word) for a loan, and the tax for the tax, this leads to an exponentional function:

you take a loan of $100000 from a bank with a tax of 5%
after one year you have to pay $105000 back to the back
after two years it is $110250
after three years it is 115762,5

but where does these additional $11762,5 come from?

you have to take them from someone else.so the money shift starts.

it looks like this:
person 1-10 are getting a loan of $1000 each with a tax of 10% for 1 year
everyone has to pay $1100 to the bank.
these additional $100 per person don't exist, but they have to pay them.
then this happens:
Person 1-9 have $1100 each but person 10 has $100 and a debt of $900.
so now the bank gets $10000 back + a garnishment (car or whatever) from person 10

and that's the point when some people get poor and other people get rich.

I just feel like the federal government is too big, too corrupt, too wasteful, and too far removed from the citizenry to make real positive differences in most people's lives. The more power we give it and the more we ask of it, the worse things will become.

Real change has to happen within families and communities with people helping people they know and can see and meet. It has to be personal and local. Otherwise we build resentment and envy which our politicians will use against us and for themselves.

Who is more likely in theory to know what the needs of the community are? A mayor or a US Senator? The President or the governor? Do we want mom and pop government or McGovernment?

It's interest, not taxes. But yes, the idea is the same. The only time this worked for us was when America was exporting more than it was importing. Now we're seeing the reverse and it's revealing itself to be a HUGE problem.

1.) Monetary policy needs to change.
2.) We need to GTFO of China and just focus on self-sustaining economy. Exports are fine, but put some major disincentives for imports.

We have the land to grow crops. We have the resources to build houses. We have the people to work jobs. Now let's use them for the good of the country and stop making China build our own stuff.

My number 1 point in an earlier post!

The de-globalization of the american economy.
This must occur to rebuild the middle class and to spread American wealth more evenly amongst the people.

2.1. technological advances

this massive production via machines does cause an unemployee rate, because less people are necessary to produce the same amount of goods.
example:
2 people have to work 8 hours per day and have an income of $10 each per hour and a total of $80 per day
now the owner gets a machine and only 1 person is needed.
1 person works 8 hours per day with an income of $10 per hour and a total of $80 per day.
but what's with person 2? this person doesn't has an income anymore.
now you could do the following thing:
person 1 & 2 could work 4 hours per day each for $10 each per hour and both are getting $40 per day total, but the costs of producing the goods are the same.then the 2 persons have to wait longer to afford anything.

My point is, this currency system does only work with a small population and low technological degree.the currency system doesn't work anymore in a society with a high population and a high technological degree.

please forgive me, if there is any bad english.

The government regulates the system to encourage banks to hand out loans to people who can't afford them, and they punish banks when they don't meet these standards. I know everyone dumps on the banks for "taking advantage of people" but in the end the only person to blame for taking out a loan they couldn't afford is the person who took the loan. No one is/was forced to take a loan.

Remind me to buy my house in cash upfront when the time comes.

That's a good point. Corruption, incompetence, and poor planning aren't the only causes for the world's current economic problems. Everything we do has changed a great deal in the past 20 years or so - of course the "older way" of doing things isn't going to keep up. The tough part here is that while technology has advanced through innovation, regulations only advance by making a decision about what's right. It's an important and difficult decision, and everyone has an opinion about it. Unfortunately, I think, our "decision makers" are very disconnected from the workings of the "average" person's life, are terrified of doing something that loses votes, and at the same time are driven (for these people are in fact driven, to reach the offices they have) by longstanding (= sometimes outdated) ideologies.

2.2. Durability of machines

an increase in durability leads automatically to the point, at which less machines needs to produced, because they don't brake so often and quickly anymore.
less machines/components required leads to less work and a higher unemployee rate.
i had a seminar 10 years ago about technology.
the teacher said the following: "they could produce fan belts which are never going to be broken but they don't because the companies would go bankrupt".
so way have to pay for the repair again and again and again.
makes sense doesn't it?

That is a good point Alukut.

To the people that say "Get a job".

What exactly are we supposed to do when the number of job seekers far out weigh the number of all available positions?

Get a job you lazy bumb durr~

The truth in that is disturbing.
I don't know why every person is given their own brain. They sure aren't able to use them independently.

Yoinking this for my facebook cause it made me lul.

2.3. logistics

actually we are using trucks/trains running with fuel to transport everything but how do we transport the necessary goods when there is no more oil?(this will happen in the future, because the oil on our planet is limited)
the transrapid technology does exist, it requires electricity instead of fuel and there are almost no maintenances needed.
actually there are no plans to develop this technology for good tranport.
why?
i think because this leads to many companies going bankrupt, like truck producing/repairing companies, resulting in an higher unemployee rate.
that's a problem in a currency system but no problem at all in a non-currency system.

2.4. energy production

actually we are using nuclear plants to produce our energy. with additional solar/wind/water energy if companies can afford them.
in a currency system it looks like this:
the energy production is in areas of a country where companies can afford to build them.
also private households which can afford them but this doesn't mean that they are on the spots which offer the highest energy production.
in a non-currency system it could look like this:
make a task force which searches for the best spots (in effecience) for solar/wind/water energy.
and then build the facilities in this order highly efficient > high efficient > mid-high efficient > medium efficient spots and if at this point the energy production isn't still enough build at low-mid efficient > low efficient spots.