Better TP Set For THF

Seriously, especially when there's a decaprio.jpg

Because your DW value is multiplied against your haste value, it does not become more valuable at higher levels of haste. The only time haste affects the value of DW is if your delay reduction is at or very close to the cap, in which case it's obviously much less valuable.

Am I wrong? doesnt dagger skill = 7 attack?

My understanding was every skill over 200 was equal to 0.9 attack/acc. Could be wrong but that's what i've been told several times. So not quite 7 attack

Either way, torque beats the neck anyday....

Acc is 0.9 after 200 skill. Atk is 1.0 all the time.

Love=6.3 acc (rounds to 6 or 7 depending on base dagger skill), 7atk and 5dex (2.5 acc, 5Ddex for crits).

It ends up as:
7atk
8-10 acc depending on rounding on both dagger skill and dex.
5 Ddex for crit rate.

From a DD perspective, love virtually always wins except in the RARE cases that you get both dex and dagger skill rounded down(or acc is capped) AND you have capped Ddex. Unless you meet both those conditions, love is a better DD option. -1atk for up to 2 acc is a good trade. Even -1atk for 1acc is still a good trade by itself the dex is just gravy. The value of subtle blow is less tangible as a non-dd boost. Love is better at killing things. If taking a minor hit to DD potential is worth 5 subtle blow? Your call.

Wait a sec, DW is just like haste except you loose the corresponding TP values that accompany higher delay weapons whereas with haste you do not. Since TP isn't quite as important with a THF as it is with other jobs (TA, DA, QA, tp-drain), delay reduction do to DW is essentially just as beneficial as haste.

More DW will = more swings & more DPS over time but TP gain would theoretically remain constant.
More Haste will = more swings & more DPS over time & more TP gain over time.

What am i missing?

What Nightfyre is saying is that the benefits from more dual wield stack with your current dual wield only. You don't need to account haste, and if you do, you would get the same number. The exception to this is when you approach the delay reduction cap, and you get a lower marginal gain than what you would get otherwise.

Love torque is 7 attack btw. The 0.9 rule is only applied on acc.

Adding Haste to Haste shows increasing returns, adding DW to DW does similarly. Delay*Haste*DW. Having high Haste doesn't magically make DW better because there is TP loss that has to be factored. And the closer you are to the 80% overall cap, the less return you'll see by adding DW.

Edit; meh beat

Haste and DW are not additive, they are multiplicative.
The way it works is that DW lowers the delay of your weapons by some %, then haste works off of that final delay. For example, 25% haste and 25% dual wield is not a 50% delay reduction, it's a 43.75% reduction.

edit: And for an example closer to the delay cap: with 60% haste and 25% dual wield the final reduction is only 70%.

^what they said

Two important things to remember:

1) hitrate caps, so additional accuracy is not always a good trade
2) dDEX works in tiers. There's a decent chance you could get nothing at all from the 5 DEX even if you're uncapped, so don't rely on it too much. Best option would be to treat it as 0.5% critrate unless you're sure you're capped (Abyssea), below 0 (possible in Voidwatch), or in the dDEX=40~50 "sweet spot" where 1 DEX = 1% critrate.

not sure if this the right place to post this. would rancor collar beat love torque for TP?

edit: for conversation, lets say you don't care about the +10% damage taken hidden effect

thanks :O

If Love Torque is giving you 5% critrate then it's superior in every way... most of the time, probably Rancor. Love might win with uncapped hitrate even with minimal critrate gains but I think Rancor should still have a small lead .

Thats why i mentioned unless acc is capped or Ddex is capped. To be complete i suppose capped OR floored Ddex for completeness, though rare as a thf. Even still, the only possible loss is -1 atk. ANY crit rate or acc will nullify that. And when it doesnt, its, quite frankly, silly to loose sleep over ONE atk. Chances are that the vast majority of the time you play thf, either acc wont be capped or Ddex wont be capped or both. Love is the general purpose winner over agasaya any day of the week. The vast majority of the time, love will do SOMETHING and any of its bonuses trump a measly 1 atk.

*Rancor will (generally) be #1 DD but with a painful 10% damage downside.
*Love will be general purpose as it (at best) can match rancor with no negatives (rare) and (nearly) always beat agasaya by a hair.
*Agasaya will (almost always) be the inferior DD piece to both above, but has 5subtle blow.

Best (by a little) DD boost at all costs(big downside)? Rancor
General purpose winner (solid DD, no negatives): Love
Weakest (by a little) with best side effect (subtle blow)? Agasaya.

Its really rather simple. Its a tradeoff. More DD, more negatives. Less DD, more positives. If you want damage no matter the cost, rancor. Want the most defensive at minor DD costs, agasaya. General purpose love. I dont like taking 10% more damage so love works for me.

This choice is less about "whats best for DD" because its simple. whice piece you use dependson availability to you and what you are willing to give up for greater DD.

You're generalizing too much. Outside Abyssea you tend to not have that high dDEX on anything over fodder type mobs. Even at 75, we XP'd on Colibri with rather low AGI, and you still weren't close to capping dDEX. Like Night said, anything below 40DEX is decimal crit rate, and often offering 0%. Unless you need the extra accuracy Love offers over Agasaya (as in to cap), it's not better. Then, needing more accuracy, PCC is just one option that'd trump it.

So let me get this straight:
*5dex for Ddex will have decmial increases to damage (most of teh time) and is therefore vastly inferior to the ONE atk on agasaya?

*PCC is better than love torque if you need the acc?
WTF does PCC have to do with this? love and agasaya are both far superior to PCC.

Love: Acc8-10, atk7, 5Ddex.
Agasaya: Acc8, atk8

The ONLY thing agasaya has over love in any circumstance for DD purposes is 1 single point of atk. Love has 0-2 acc and dex.

Ill just get this point by point.
1: IF acc is uncapped, acc beats atk point for point. Agreed?
2: If Ddex is not floored or capped, 5dex will have anywhere from 0.5% crit rate to 5% crit rate (1-5% being very rare). Even 0.5% crit rate trades with 1 atk favorably. Agreed?

Therefore:
A) If acc is uncapped, love will beat agasaya
B) If Ddex is neither capped nor floored, 5dex will beat 1 atk

Therefore:
If EITHER acc is uncapped OR Ddex is neither floored, nor capped Love is stronger than agasaya. Obviously, if BOTH acc is capped and Ddex is either floored or capped, then agasaya will have a 1atk lead over love.

Which is exactly what I have been saying this whole time. If acc uncapped and Ddex not capped (admittedly i didnt mention Ddex being floored until it was brought up. Fair point) then love is superior.

To the generalizing part, for most, most of the time, both of those conditions will not be met (floored/capped Ddex and acc cap). Therefore love will generally beat agasaya. The other side is that even when BOTH those conditions are met, the gain of agasaya is infinitesimally small. So even when agasaya DOES win, its ONE friggin atk. Asking "whats better" is general. The general answer is that 1 atk "occasionaly" does not beat 0.5-5% crit rate and 1-2 acc that occurs far more often if you are trying to pick one piece over the other.

That is both the specific conditional and generalized answers to the "which is stronger" question.

If all you ever do in this entire game is run around killing trash mobs in abyssea (Ddex+Acc capped) then enjoy your agasaya 1atk lead while doing so. Whoop. For everyone else, you will get more mileage out of love torque.

I'll break it down into stupid then.

Your argument is Love torque wins because of dDEX, Accuracy, attack gains. Only losing with dDEX being floored or capped. Okay.

If accuracy is uncapped, (which if it is, is unlikely to be so by 1% hit rate, thus requiring something with more accuracy on it than love torque. In this situation, Love torque loses to PCC and anything else with more accuracy. So this comparison doesn't hold much ground. So the blah blah more accuracy argument doesn't mean anything unless it's exactly the amount needed to cap.

Inside Abyssea, accuracy and dDEX are capped a good majority of the time. So Love loses to Agasaya, and Rancor.

Outside Abyssea, you are gaining 7 Attack, around 8 accuracy give or take, and anywhere from 0 to 5% crit rate. My Colibri argument was to show that even on low AGI targets, coming close to capping dDEX in your TP gear is unlikely on anything that isn't trash fodder mobs, ie: EP and lower, and even then some. So if you're actually gaining 0%, or .5% from 5 DEX, which is likely in most cases, and accuracy isn't severely uncapped, yeah, it'll lose to Agasaya's. Not for the 1 attack, but for the 5 SB reducing at least 1 enemy TP move, requiring less shadow casting, halting your damage flow less. Try to remember .5 Crit rate isn't going to do much, hell, .5 Haste is overlooked for other stats, and Haste has exponential returns, Crit rate has diminishing returns.

Love torque is meh on average, only superior at high levels of, but still uncapped, dDEX.

And therin lies the problem. You are giving a measurement to non-DD stats (subtle blow) and using it to shore up the lacking agasayas. I am talking about the objective damage increases, then the user decides if the non-damage things are worth loosing raw damage potential. Not the other way around.

You have not once stated that agasayas makes you hit things harder because it doesnt. (except in the already mentioned capped everything situations)

Riddle me this (hit: same thing i have said at least 3 times now)

Does acc beat atk 1 for 1 when acc is uncapped?
Yes.

Does 0.5-5% crit rate beat 1 atk?
Yes

When one or both of those factors are in play, does love have higher damage potential than agasaya?
Yes.

When NEITHER of those factors are in play, does love has lower damage potential than agasaya?
Yes.

Those are the damage properties of Agasaya vs love. The end. That is what the answer is to "Which neck piece makes my digital avatar hit ***harder?" Not subtle blow reducing shadow casting. Do you also think torero torque does more damage than love torque? It has NINE subtle blow AND NINE evasion. You will evade more, cast shadows less and eat less TP moves so that makes you do more damage amirite!? Does a haubergeon+1 do less damage than a SH for ninja because it has a ~35 evasion difference? No. Leave the subtle blow out of it already., or be prepared to tell the thief and ninja community that Torero torque is the #1 DD neck piece in the game. That is how ridiculous your argument is.
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Edit: Almost forgot:
Love torque does not loose to PCC. Love=8-10 acc and 7atk and Ddex. PCC is 10 acc. If love getrs 10acc how you fathom PCC wins is beyond me. Even if it only gets the unfavorable rounding of acc, guess what, 7atk beats 2 acc, or at least matches.

Exteme example favoring PCC: 50% hit rate, while somehow being EM or below mob (no level correction which makes atk more potent) AND Love only gets 8acc and Pdif is a good 1.5.

So, now you have an EM or below mob with eva high enough to be 50% hit rate and 2acc on PCC will increase hit rate from 50>51%. 2% increase. My thf has 472 atk in TP gear. That would make this imaginary squishy, yet stupidly evasive mob have 316 def. 472/316=1.494. 7atk makes that 479/316=1.516. Damage increase of 1.47%. So in this completely absurd example, PCC would win by 0.53%.

Now lets look at aything remotely realistic. Acc uncapped so gotta be a lv ~98ish or so mob. Pdif probably closer to 1.2 before level correction. Acc around 75% post level correction. ~570 atk with food on. 475 mob def.

2acc=1.3% more damage.
7atk=1.25% more damage, oh wait thats no level correction.
7atk=1.8% damage!

And that is a WORST case scenario for love (rounded down twice on acc). Even in the 1st absurd example that favored PCC, if love gets even ONE of those 2 acc checks to give a single point of acc, PCC looses to love because the boost becomes only 1% while the atk is sitll 1.47%.

Love beats PCC in almost any realistic scenario EVEN if its rounded down to 8 acc. That rarely happens. It will more often than not get at LEAST 1 acc.

wut

This because Store TP+1 > All

noooooooooo :(

Wtf is wrong with you lol

***! now i know why you said uthers grip. i swear i did not know i had that equipped :'( or even outside my mog safe.

Let's just rule out accuracy then. You're argument is basically, .5 Crit Rate > 1 Attack + 5 SB.

You can't pretend SB doesn't hold offensive advantages, "hitting something 3 times" is not going to tell you anything. Over time, I would at the very least imagine that it'll help you match .5% Crit rate.

Ignoring entirely the part about you most likely getting 0% Crit rate from dDEX, at most .5, which won't do anything at all unless you have another pending .5 Crit rate to round up.

Therefore my saying, on anything worthwhile you'll get more mileage out of Agasaya since Love torque will, on average, be offering almost the same statistics. As I said in my first post, ruling out accuracy, 1 Attack and 5 SB will have higher returns than Love torque, unless in the 40-50 dDEX range which I think we have agreed on? This is all pseudo argument at this point, there is no clear winner and comes down to what you're fighting at any given time.

Wut? lol SB is an offensive stat now?

Offensive or Defensive, it's not something to just overlook when comparing.

It's pseudo-offensive. By giving less tp to the mob, it WSs less often, allowing you to focus more on attacking instead of recasting shadows. Or perhaps it allows you to get paralyzed less often, or stunned less often, it all depends on what you're fighting.