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DNC Response from the Devs
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-08-15 09:16:11
Here's your link
Here's the text
Greetings dancers! Here is some feedback from the development team in regards to your comments about the job adjustments concepts. Enjoy
Add new modes for dancers. Add dances that give sphere effects.
Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.
Make it so Waltzes don’t all share the same timer.
We would need to completely remake the system as it was originally balanced to have a unified recast timer with limitations placed on the amount of TP consumed. If we removed that, the cure capabilities of the job would be greatly enhanced throwing the balance off between other healing magic. If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.
Reduce the recast timer on Waltz. (Especially higher tier Curing Waltz and Healing Waltz)
Since Curing Waltz was designed to be different from Cure in the sense that it has advantages with short execution time and it is hard to interrupt, but on the flip side is difficult to use in quick succession, we do not have any plans to reduce the recast time further. Instead we wish for dancers to focus on specific tactics taking into account the levels of Waltz and use the most appropriate one for the situation.
Similarly for Healing Waltz, since it is possible to address a large variety of status ailments covered by na-related spells and Erase, the recast timer was set to be somewhat long.
Make it possible to use Healing Waltz on people outside of your party.
It would be necessary to look into not only Healing Waltz, but also extending Erase to people outside of your party. In the case that we decide to extend the effects of Erase to people outside of your party, we will make it possible for Healing Waltz, too.
Increase the effect of Animated Flourish.
We are looking into adjustments for this. We are considering making it so you can generate the same level of enmity as Provoke when consuming two finishing moves.
Increase the accuracy for Desperate Flourish.
We are exploring the direction of adding equipment that enhances the accuracy.
Make it so you can perform level 2-3 skill chains with Wild Flourish.
Comparing this to samurai’s Konzen-ittai, the recast timer is shorter and it has multiple uses so the effect itself was set rather low for balance purposes.
Make it so you can stack steps over level 5.
This would require us to look into the effects carefully. Since the effect of level 5 is currently very strong, we do not have any plans of increasing this at the moment.
Lengthen the effect duration for steps.
We are looking into the direction of making it so the duration gets longer at higher levels.
Make it so you can generate two finishing moves even after you have reached level 5.
It can be thought that the fundamental problem here is that in order to maintain the effect of the step you need to continuously use the same step. First we will revamp the step effect duration and determine how many times you can use a step in a single battle, and then make a decision based on that.
The idea is to be able to fight by using a variety of steps and not using the same one over and over just to maintain its effect.
Make Chocobo Jig an AoE effect.
Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.
Make it so you can overwrite Spectral Jig.
Please understand that this is the same as magic and items and it is following the rule that in order to re-apply the effect you need to remove it first.
Irrelevant stuff:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11584-%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%96%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BB%E3%83%97%E3%83%88%EF%BC%9A%E8%B8%8A%E3%82%8A%E5%AD%90/page6
It's up on the Japanese forums. The whole thing looks pretty grim, but I won't make specific comments until I'm done translating it for myself. My Japanese is rusty though, so I apologize ^_^ English one should be up later today (usually around 7est)
Questions Addressed:
1.) Want to add a new mode/sphere effect dance?
2.) I don't want to share waltz recast timers.
They pull out both system-related woes and balance related woes. Simply splitting recast timers would make waltzes too powerful compared to other forms of recovery magic (apparently - this is what I've been saying is on their minds all along lol). Something about splitting might require substantial increases in TP cost if they did do it?
3.) I want waltz recast reduced.
Basically they pull that waltz can't be interrupted, so they don't want to decrease recast timers. They want us to use 1-3 for regular waltzes and IV + V "situationally." The recast on healing is similarly "deliberately high." -_-
4.) I would like to use healing waltz outside of PT.
5.) I would like to increase the effectiveness of Animated Flourish.
6.) I would like to increase the hit rate of Desperate Flourish.
7.) I would like wild flourish to do higher tier skillchains.
They draw a comparison to Konzen-Ittai. They set the effect of Wild lower than Konzen-Ittai because Konzen-Ittai has a significantly longer recast, which makes sense, really.
8.) We want more than 5 stages of step.
This is really disappointing. They already consider the effect of level 5 daze to be very high, so they probably won't increase the potency like I listed in my suggestion thread :(
9.) I want to increase step duration.
10.) I want to earn 2 finishing moves when step level 5 is present.
11.) I want chocobo jig to affect the party.
12.) I want to be able to overwrite spectral jig.
By AlkalineJoe 2011-08-15 09:21:32
I had a fun time reading the response translated by Google Translate.
Although most of the responses were, "No, no, no, no and no."
Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6137
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-08-15 09:38:49
I'm getting a lot of "No" and a few lectures, with two conditional "maybe"s Obviously the two "Maybe"s are numbers 5 and 6.
Long story short, they have no intention of addressing the fundamental issues with the Dancer job.
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-08-15 09:40:23
Yeah, it's pretty much all "go sit in a corner."
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-15 09:41:36
I could not understand much of that, even after I google translated it. :(
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-15 09:48:01
[+]
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-15 09:50:10
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: The ***... Pretty much what I was thinking too.
Asura.Ina
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17912
By Asura.Ina 2011-08-15 10:03:45
For #2/3 mabey useing a system similar to charges would work to make it viable with out being over powered... have them all share reuse but they become available 1 at a time ie if you waltz 5 after 4 seconds (what ever the recast is on waltz 1, can't remember atm) waltz 1 comes available to use, followed by 2 at whatever its recast is then 3 > 4 > 5 with divine in there as well... healing waltz should really be it's own thing or have it's recast reduced because, well there are times where i just don't cure statuses (blind dia bio types nothing too debilitateing) because of that damned recast on it. Also kinda sucks when getting hit by a few things at once from a tp move and it decides to take the less hurtful debuffs off before the bigger ones like silence/para
#8 they are probably looking at it as a whole not just dnc wise... by that i meen between all the defence down stuff we can stick on a mob as is I think it was -53% we can get it to now(?). Quick step I would say should get a boost since the ways of lowering a mob's don't stack as high and can't really comment on stutter or feather step since don't really know how potent they are but everyone tells me feather step does nothing really so that needs a boost XD
#10 deffinetly should be done >.> it's like they punish dnc for keeping lv5 steps.
#12 would be nice but thats just kinda it following the same rules as all other sneak/invis stuff... it can overwrite if your just invis and have removed the sneak but the sneak will make it fail since they are a package deal on spectral. Might be time for them to just make sneak overwrite itself in any situation.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1161
By Fenrir.Mtmoogle 2011-08-15 10:24:06
dnc really doesn't need anything imo.
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-08-15 10:38:46
Fenrir.Mtmoogle said: dnc really doesn't need anything imo.
Death Flourish, AoE instant reraise-III, AoE party invincibility, innate caped crit rate and crit dmg, am I missing anything?
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 203
By Phoenix.Darkwizardzin 2011-08-15 10:39:28
...Aren't most of the thfs POed about how powerful the dnc job is anyway (when conpared to there own job)? Seems like SE is overall afraid to increase the power of dnc due to job balancing issues.
Asura.Ina
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17912
By Asura.Ina 2011-08-15 10:41:16
Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: Fenrir.Mtmoogle said: dnc really doesn't need anything imo. Death Flourish, AoE instant reraise-III, AoE party invincibility, innate caped crit rate and crit dmg, am I missing anything? AoE magic shield... invincible only blocks physical, haste samba II which sets delay to 80, and store tp +9001
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-08-15 10:42:07
Also, I want a new "Strip" job ability.
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 203
By Phoenix.Darkwizardzin 2011-08-15 10:43:57
Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: Also, I want a new "Strip" job ability. lol
Shiva.Gib
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1264
By Shiva.Gib 2011-08-15 10:44:05
I dunno why everyone Q,Q's so much over the Waltz timers, yeah they aren't great, but if you've got good evasion gear, it's very manageable.
sure you can't be a main healer in a heavy damage taking party, but who cares :P
Asura.Ina
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17912
By Asura.Ina 2011-08-15 10:45:10
Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: Also, I want a new "Strip" job ability. Pole dance? would need to give dnc staff skill for that and I think SE knows we wouldn't let them live that down given all the possilbities for dirty jokes.
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-08-15 10:46:09
Asura.Ina said: Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: Also, I want a new "Strip" job ability. Pole dance? would need to give dnc staff skill for that and I think SE knows we wouldn't let them live that down given all the possilbities for dirty jokes.
Staff skill would have to be dependent on race. Mithra/Galka would get A+, other races would have to get significantly less.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-15 10:53:32
Shiva.Gib said: I dunno why everyone Q,Q's so much over the Waltz timers, yeah they aren't great, but if you've got good evasion gear, it's very manageable.
sure you can't be a main healer in a heavy damage taking party, but who cares :P A lot of us enjoyed DNC back at 75 cap where that kind of healing duty was its calling card along with Haste Samba. So... yeah, a lot of us here actually care. DD DNC is fun in its own right but it's a different style.
Phoenix.Brixy
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
By Phoenix.Brixy 2011-08-15 10:53:33
Asura.Ina said: Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: Also, I want a new "Strip" job ability. Pole dance? would need to give dnc staff skill for that and I think SE knows we wouldn't let them live that down given all the possilbities for dirty jokes.
We already have pole dancers, dnc/drg and vise versa.
Cerberus.Ustav
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1043
By Cerberus.Ustav 2011-08-15 10:53:55
Phoenix.Darkwizardzin said: ...Aren't most of the thfs POed about how powerful the dnc job is anyway (when conpared to there own job)? Seems like SE is overall afraid to increase the power of dnc due to job balancing issues. lol the only thing thfs were pissed off about was the Subtle Blow.
Leviathan.Laphine
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 64
By Leviathan.Laphine 2011-08-15 11:11:04
Cerberus.Ustav said: Phoenix.Darkwizardzin said: ...Aren't most of the thfs POed about how powerful the dnc job is anyway (when conpared to there own job)? Seems like SE is overall afraid to increase the power of dnc due to job balancing issues. lol the only thing thfs were pissed off about was the Subtle Blow. We mind DW4. We mind forced crit. Stuff like that.
Anyways, gl with the other issues Asymptotic didn't translate~
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1060
By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-08-15 11:13:21
Ramuh.Austar said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: The ***... Pretty much what I was thinking too.
Shiva.Paulu
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 776
By Shiva.Paulu 2011-08-15 11:17:50
Quote:
12.) I want to be able to overwrite spectral jig.
Windower users can put "/console cancel 71" in the first line of their jig macro /console cancel 71.
That removes sneak right inside your macro.
Bahamut.Aeronis
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1838
By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-08-15 11:18:46
Shiva.Paulu said: Quote:
12.) I want to be able to overwrite spectral jig.
Windower users can put "/console cancel 71" in the first line of their jig macro /console cancel 71.
That removes sneak right inside your macro. That's cheating, yo.
Bahamut.Sakurawr
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:22:28
Shiva.Gib said: I dunno why everyone Q,Q's so much over the Waltz timers, yeah they aren't great, but if you've got good evasion gear, it's very manageable.
sure you can't be a main healer in a heavy damage taking party, but who cares :P I tank on DNC, so I usually spam out Divine Waltz II, which means I'm getting alot of hate, but can't cure fast enough to keep myself alive, thus relying on party members.
And I care personally, as when I leveled DNC I was bitched at for not curing despite timers/TP/amnesia blahblah :(
Also not everything has dire accuracy, Pantokrator for one has high acc, and Laser Shower often hits me for 1700 range. Without his other bits.
Sylph.Kiaru
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 11:23:00
I love how all the questions they answer for jobs are horrible. Can they pick questions not asked by people who just got FFXI for their bday present as they turn 13 please?
Real questions would be: Can we make all mobs DNC melee friendly by giving DNC 100% subtle blow at the cost of doing 90% or less damage?
Can we get unique abilities that someone can't /dnc and do just as well as us?(Waltz3 and haste samba is subbable ^_^;; 5% haste doesn't make up for using a dnc main over say, a cor/dnc).
etc etc
DNC is a great lowman/solo job but falls short in group enviroments now compared to 75 imo. Haste samba was incredible, it's heals were incredible, now it's just a lowman/solo job :(
[+]
Shiva.Gib
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1264
By Shiva.Gib 2011-08-15 11:26:20
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Gib said: I dunno why everyone Q,Q's so much over the Waltz timers, yeah they aren't great, but if you've got good evasion gear, it's very manageable.
sure you can't be a main healer in a heavy damage taking party, but who cares :P A lot of us enjoyed DNC back at 75 cap where that kind of healing duty was its calling card along with Haste Samba. So... yeah, a lot of us here actually care. DD DNC is fun in its own right but it's a different style. yeah I've been doing DNC like since the week WoTG came out, i'm not a Abyssea nub bandwagon jumper I can assure you :P
I'm more of a solo play DNC
Fenrir.Niniann
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 11:27:49
Shiva.Gib said: yeah I've been doing DNC like since the week WoTG came out, i'm not a Abyssea nub bandwagon jumper I can assure you :P
I'm more of a solo play DNC
Well I'm more of a group-heal DNC, so I do care. They need to fix it, but they're obviously not going to.
Bahamut.Sakurawr
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:28:15
Sylph.Kiaru said: I love how all the questions they answer for jobs are horrible. Can they pick questions not asked by people who just got FFXI for their bday present as they turn 13 please?
Real questions would be: Can we make all mobs DNC melee friendly by giving DNC 100% subtle blow at the cost of doing 90% or less damage?
Can we get unique abilities that someone can't /dnc and do just as well as us?(Waltz3 and haste samba is subbable ^_^;; 5% haste doesn't make up for using a dnc main over say, a cor/dnc).
etc etc
DNC is a great lowman/solo job but falls short in group enviroments now compared to 75 imo. Haste samba was incredible, it's heals were incredible, now it's just a lowman/solo job :( I beg to differ, it works brilliantly as a tank (minus Raja/Rani) if the DNC knows how to tank properly with good support.
Sylph.Kiaru
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 11:28:34
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Gib said: I dunno why everyone Q,Q's so much over the Waltz timers, yeah they aren't great, but if you've got good evasion gear, it's very manageable.
sure you can't be a main healer in a heavy damage taking party, but who cares :P A lot of us enjoyed DNC back at 75 cap where that kind of healing duty was its calling card along with Haste Samba. So... yeah, a lot of us here actually care. DD DNC is fun in its own right but it's a different style.
I agree 100%, I LOVED playing dnc and only played DNC so much at 75 because I enjoyed it's playstyle. It did damage damage, but you were mainly a support/healer, if I wanna be a DD I'll play my ninja <_< And dual box a WHM which is > soloing on dnc wtf.
DNC was so complex, you had to pay attention to so many things and really had no free time to even alt tab mid fight, it was awesome ^-^
Doing as much damage as you possibly could while keeping your steps on the mob, your tp up, keeping everyone healthy and keeping your samba up > lulz i'm a dd bro
Quote: I beg to differ, it works brilliantly as a tank (minus Raja/Rani) if the DNC knows how to tank properly with good support.
I'm not going to argue this, because any melee job in the game can tank in abyssea...except they provide reds, yellows, blues or TH :/
Here's your link
Here's the text
Greetings dancers! Here is some feedback from the development team in regards to your comments about the job adjustments concepts. Enjoy
Add new modes for dancers. Add dances that give sphere effects.
Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.
Make it so Waltzes don’t all share the same timer.
We would need to completely remake the system as it was originally balanced to have a unified recast timer with limitations placed on the amount of TP consumed. If we removed that, the cure capabilities of the job would be greatly enhanced throwing the balance off between other healing magic. If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.
Reduce the recast timer on Waltz. (Especially higher tier Curing Waltz and Healing Waltz)
Since Curing Waltz was designed to be different from Cure in the sense that it has advantages with short execution time and it is hard to interrupt, but on the flip side is difficult to use in quick succession, we do not have any plans to reduce the recast time further. Instead we wish for dancers to focus on specific tactics taking into account the levels of Waltz and use the most appropriate one for the situation.
Similarly for Healing Waltz, since it is possible to address a large variety of status ailments covered by na-related spells and Erase, the recast timer was set to be somewhat long.
Make it possible to use Healing Waltz on people outside of your party.
It would be necessary to look into not only Healing Waltz, but also extending Erase to people outside of your party. In the case that we decide to extend the effects of Erase to people outside of your party, we will make it possible for Healing Waltz, too.
Increase the effect of Animated Flourish.
We are looking into adjustments for this. We are considering making it so you can generate the same level of enmity as Provoke when consuming two finishing moves.
Increase the accuracy for Desperate Flourish.
We are exploring the direction of adding equipment that enhances the accuracy.
Make it so you can perform level 2-3 skill chains with Wild Flourish.
Comparing this to samurai’s Konzen-ittai, the recast timer is shorter and it has multiple uses so the effect itself was set rather low for balance purposes.
Make it so you can stack steps over level 5.
This would require us to look into the effects carefully. Since the effect of level 5 is currently very strong, we do not have any plans of increasing this at the moment.
Lengthen the effect duration for steps.
We are looking into the direction of making it so the duration gets longer at higher levels.
Make it so you can generate two finishing moves even after you have reached level 5.
It can be thought that the fundamental problem here is that in order to maintain the effect of the step you need to continuously use the same step. First we will revamp the step effect duration and determine how many times you can use a step in a single battle, and then make a decision based on that.
The idea is to be able to fight by using a variety of steps and not using the same one over and over just to maintain its effect.
Make Chocobo Jig an AoE effect.
Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.
Make it so you can overwrite Spectral Jig.
Please understand that this is the same as magic and items and it is following the rule that in order to re-apply the effect you need to remove it first.
Irrelevant stuff:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11584-%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%96%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BB%E3%83%97%E3%83%88%EF%BC%9A%E8%B8%8A%E3%82%8A%E5%AD%90/page6
It's up on the Japanese forums. The whole thing looks pretty grim, but I won't make specific comments until I'm done translating it for myself. My Japanese is rusty though, so I apologize ^_^ English one should be up later today (usually around 7est)
Questions Addressed:
1.) Want to add a new mode/sphere effect dance?
2.) I don't want to share waltz recast timers.
They pull out both system-related woes and balance related woes. Simply splitting recast timers would make waltzes too powerful compared to other forms of recovery magic (apparently - this is what I've been saying is on their minds all along lol). Something about splitting might require substantial increases in TP cost if they did do it?
3.) I want waltz recast reduced.
Basically they pull that waltz can't be interrupted, so they don't want to decrease recast timers. They want us to use 1-3 for regular waltzes and IV + V "situationally." The recast on healing is similarly "deliberately high." -_-
4.) I would like to use healing waltz outside of PT.
5.) I would like to increase the effectiveness of Animated Flourish.
6.) I would like to increase the hit rate of Desperate Flourish.
7.) I would like wild flourish to do higher tier skillchains.
They draw a comparison to Konzen-Ittai. They set the effect of Wild lower than Konzen-Ittai because Konzen-Ittai has a significantly longer recast, which makes sense, really.
8.) We want more than 5 stages of step.
This is really disappointing. They already consider the effect of level 5 daze to be very high, so they probably won't increase the potency like I listed in my suggestion thread :(
9.) I want to increase step duration.
10.) I want to earn 2 finishing moves when step level 5 is present.
11.) I want chocobo jig to affect the party.
12.) I want to be able to overwrite spectral jig.
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