SCH, Good Sub Or Not? Lets Discuss (no Drama Please, This Is, For Once, A Serious Thread)

Like the title says.

I know people would say that WHM/SCH and SMN/SCH are great, so lets not discuss those.

What about RDM/SCH? Now with Composure, you get an excuse to....well...not Sublimation yourself, but still keep Light Arts on yourself if you are main heal. SCH/RDM works, why not RDM/SCH?

How about BLM/SCH? I know, most of you guys will say "not for merit situation" but seriously, what about for non-merit situations? Like when you know you aren't going to have time to rest, and that SS/Blink usually wears more from timer than from usage? Like farming in sea/sky? Dark Arts also saves you 28 MP per AMII and 35+ MP per T4, which can add up quicker than ***. Also, if you have a Sorc Ring, why buy gears to knock your HP to 75% if Sublimation will do it for you?

Your thoughts?

Reason why I'm asking because....well....since my SMN is at 75, and that WHM looks fun to level, and like hell I'm ever going to get a Soboro, I'm thinking about leveling WHM next, but would like to go WHM/SCH all the way. Figured if I have SCH at 37, why can't I use it for BLM/SCH dynamis runs or sky/sea farms? Thought I would ask the "pros" and "emos" here for thoughts first though.

just level it.

it's a good sub for whm, i've used it in meripo's before.

Ok, forget about WHM/SCH and SMN/SCH talk, we all can agree that SCH is a good sub for that.

My main question (however long it is) is about RDM/SCH and BLM/SCH....

BLU/SCH {Where?}

I don't know about WHM or RDM enough to decide for those, but for BLU, double-aspir is nice as well as RR and MP/Healing skill. It's good for things like Campaign and Nyzul.

i've tried blm/sch and i'm taru, too squishy- no stoneskin/blink/phalanx. so if you're confident that you wont take any hit/barely get hit at all then i guess it's good.

edit: It's just annoying that you can't /heal while sublimation is running, since no stoneskin.

Which is why I'm going for the dynamis/sky/sea farms since BLMs rarely /heal while farming ***.

I find myself going RDM/SCH whenever I possibly can.

Merit party is when it shines, reduced MP cost, Penury, increased Magic Skills, nothing /WHM or /BLM can compete with. Regen II is also a blast, with Composure I can get 90% of my HP cursed after using Convert.

/SCH is great for situations where Chainspell nukes come into play, helps squeeze out as many nukes as you can and you get the added bonus off increased Elemental Skill to make those nukes hit harder and have less resists. Combine this with a fully charged Sublimation prior to CS'ing, and you got yourself a good 2-3 nukes extra.

There's no debate about how great /SCH is when compared to /WHM or /BLM. You'll see yourself using /SCH more often then anything else.

But with any job and subjob combination, there will always be situations where /WHM and /BLM are simply needed to get the job done, like /BLM for Dynamis or /WHM for... anything that needs... Curaga... *Can't think of anything we need /WHM for*

RDM/SCH awesome PL combo.
BLM/SCH I use to pop Despot (-ga 6 dolls at once, stratagems and sublimations allows for enough MP to do it without resting.)
PUP/SCH is decent I heard, gives enough skill to drain/sleep things.
SMN/SCH and WHM/SCH are just so good.

stoneskin, phalanx, gravity and blink.

BLM/SCH has a few too many downfalls. For one, the situations that I COULD use /SCH for are so limited, and the potential benefits miniscule in comparison, that its usually not necessary. Almost all of my endgame is ran with /WHM, for -na's, Erase, Blink/SS, and RR. Not to bash the /RDM, as I'm sure that would have probably caused a stir, the Fast Cast and Gravity for me are not as important as being able to remove detrimental status effects and able to RR.

RDM/SCH is incredibly handy, and in almost any situation, I run with this setup. Saving MP on refresh and hastes, MP per cures, the extra speed on my castings, and the use of stratagems when my MP does finally run low before I convert makes RDM utilitarian that it never got with /BLM or /WHM. The only spell that I miss as RDM/SCH vs. RDM/WHM is Erase.

In cases where BLMs and RDMs collide (dynamis, sea, sky) Gravity isn't an issue for the BLM.

And like I said, my SS/Blink/Phalanx usually wears off before I even take a hit, so its not like I'm even getting those bonuses at all anyway.

Forget dynamis really, you do need SS/Blink there unless you're in a shell that only do city with 45 players :/

You'll get hit often during dreamland because of links and repeated sleepga II. You'll build a lot of hate.

Naw, maybe 24-29 people at a time per zone, usually just sleep and nuke stones, let others deal with those other mobs.

What zone tho ? You do Dynamis Qufim without SS/Blink ? Boss would rape you in 1 hit... Also dynamis is prolly the worst exemple for /sch, since MP/dmg efficiency doesn't matter, lot of MP stats, can rest when you need to (not like your shell is gonna die while 1 blm is resting, MP management ain't that important).

Usually cities/ice. Sometimes, when we have sucessful runs, we do dreamland, but not that often (like once a month).

When you are running away cause you cast a T4 on a stone and found out that you have no mp, Sublimation helps out alot. Even helps out when you see that the puller pulls while you have no MP, dark arts + whatever that 50% MP cost ability = slept mobs.

Well I never run out of MP off a statue really. Aspir, double dark weather, +160MP easy, you're good for a tier IV ;) If completely out of MP, Aspir down, then other BLMs will do it, a stat ain't a huge threat in dynamis, they're so slow, anyone can kite these for ever ^^

Now with SS/Blink you can stand still while nuking, even if stat reach you they, most of the time, don't break stoneskin in one hit, enabling you to finish your nuke and kill it. BLM really cannot live without SS/Blink in dynamis, unless they're not doing their job.

I look at myself in dreamland (hardly do cities atm), sleeping all mobs, sometime sleepga, then sleepga II right after, timing sleep, re-sleeping right before they wake up. Hate stacks more and more and more. Then mobs starts to reach you, because keeping 6-8 mobs slept is hard, but since you have SS/Blink you can take couple of hits while midcast. For /sch this would mean instant interrupt = death.

Typical dreamland situation where you'll regret /sch :

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6247/dyna2.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1562/dyna3.jpg (notice the echo lol, i mean it :] )

And lot of dreamland pull ends up like this. Crows/Dhalmel/Efts/Bunnies/Crawlers/cockatrice in bubu. Hyppo/manticore in Valk. Kraken/nightmare weapons in Qufim. Not to mention tavnazia where some links are 100% unavoidable. And with 18 players you cannot afford a single BLM to die and be out for 6-7 minutes. In Xar some pull are hard too, like the famous "wall", same goes for beau, the gob pull upstairs with the extender = meh :/

Both screenshot linked above never ended in wipe. Why ? Because BLMs had SS/Blink and could correctly re-sleep mobs without getting interrupted. On situation like this hate is really unstable and spread among some BLMs. Mob usually comes to you, hits you a bit, sometime break SS/blink, then move on to another blm (or become slept in time).

The achilles heel of SCH and /SCH is the inability to switch between white and black magic at will. For this reason, I wouldn't recommend it for your everyday RDMing. Because even if you limit yourself to healing, there will be times when you'll have to pull a gravity or bind out of your ***.

For BLM, it's situational, I'm sure. There are times when MP efficiency is highly desirable, and now that /SCH has access to RR, it's a little more appealing.

A BLM without Stoneskin, is a BLM asking for a raise lol.

Here's my take on it. /SCH is about the best thing going for a meripo RDM. Lock yourself into Light Arts and you're good to go. ANYWHERE else, forget it. RDM uses too many spells from each side of the spectrum, you're gonna get caught with your Arts timer down eventually. I suppose if you're really good with the job you could maximizer the benefits and minimize penalties, but I'd rather sub something else and not deal with it at all. However, I'm not a RDM main.
BLM/SCH: I love this. Loads of damage with improved MP efficiency. You're much less likely to hurt on your Arts timers here, as you'll be in Dark Arts 95% of the time. Parsimony is your friend. One big problem with this though is the complete lack of Blink, Stoneskin, Gravity, and Phalanx. You can live without Gravity and Phalanx a lot of the time, especially in non-solo situations. Blink and Stoneskin, though... put it this way, I'm not going /SCH to anything unless I'm 110% sure my survival is not an issue. That said, iirc Kaeko did his Apollyon NW solo with BLM/SCH, so it's obviously a viable solo in certain situations. Then again, he also had Herald's Gaiters :\ Reraise does help /SCH's case, but I find more often than not I'm gonna want Blink and Stoneskin along with either Curaga and -na spells or Gravity and Phalanx, which means /WHM or /RDM suits my needs better.

I've used blm/sch at Tiamat once but not every LS has tanks that can keep hate off 6 BLM going nuts nonstop nuking on Tia from 100% to 0% in 30 mins or less. Pulling hate on tia as blm/sch would mean certain death though as a taru ... 2-3 hits max would be all.

Tried rdm/sch a couple times in merit. Worked out ok ... no one died I guess. Then again, I prefer whm/sch in merit over rdm any day. Even more so now with auspice.

Used rdm/sch to solo tatami shield gigas twice too ... didn't really see any help over /whm.

Way I see it, the one time you really needed SS/Blink and you came /sch, you will remember it.

As someone else expressed in another thread somewhere, too many people in FFXI play like they're an island. Yes, /SCH lacks stoneskin and blink. Doesn't a SCH have Accession? Does a COR, SCH, BLM/SCHx4 gain over a COR, SCH, BLM/???x4 or even COR and BLM/???x5 when it comes to Dynamis or any other event? If the SCH is passing out weather, they may as well give out stoneskin and blink as well.

When anything SCH related comes up, people are quick to point at Kaeko and say, "but Kaeko says!" Kaeko soloed one of the Salvage routes as BLM/SCH. Exceptional players don't need stoneskin, but it's nice to have for the rest of us mortals. That said, there are ways to get it other than subbing WHM or RDM if you're looking to play as a team (a WHM main can give it out now, too!).

I imagine /SCH is going to be a lot more popular in Campaign for those who have it with the lower level requirement on RR, since it can be hard to come up with the 150mp (especially weakened, especially for galkas), and Penury makes that a hell of a lot easier.

Kaeko is overrated anyway.

Now they dropped re-reaise level down to 25, /SCH has improved a lot

Coming from my RDM point of view.

/SCH sounds great on paper, but in reality I very rarely get to use it. It lacks 2 spells. Both spells I NEED for the events I do.

Dynamis is a /BLM orny area... I need Sleepga, the end.

Assaults/nyzul is 99% of the time is /WHM as I will be the only healer their and I never know what we will be doing/fighting, so I need the broadest range of spells I can get, so that means /WHM. Erase is a very important spell which you still only get from /WHM.

Merits is the best place you can try /SCH but most brds will expect erase if they get caught by an elergy, so it only really works when you are 5 DD + RDM or 4 DD + 1 COR + 1 RDM.

Possibly for other events (eg sky/sea) were you are not the only RDM and you dont need sleepga then maybe RDM/SCH can work.

Old and I'm late to the thread, but, tbh it needed to be done.

No need to be exceptional, need to be solo and well geared. When you have gaiters and do something solo as Apollyon SW, SS ain't a big deal. Being solo makes a huge difference, you can exploit the pathfinding of all mobs. Now on all event where you ain't solo, you won't be able to do that, you're not going to kite dynamis mob alone with your gaiters...



You're the one on an island here, thinking you're playing a turn based RPG. This is completely worthless in dynamis, each blm is on his own, and will need to renew stoneskin at different time. Accession won't do ***, you won't gather all party members at once, BLM needs to spread to cover the highest sleepable surface they can. Also BLM need to spread so when hate bounce, mob will waste time running from one BLM to another.

Typical situation : BLM #2 is resting far away, while BLM #1 stoneskin is up and "full", BLM #3 stoneskin will be down in 30sec, and BLM #4 stoneskin got 1min remaining, but "half up" (<100dmg remains). On a scenario like this what are you gonna do with accession ? Run to BLM #3, give him stoneskin ? And then ? 1min later BLM #4 stoneskin is down. Run back to BLM #4 ? In the mean time BLM #2 is rested and back to fighting. Run to BLM #2 ?

Ask all BLM to gather and drop their stoneskin so you can use accession ? That's just completely unrealistic. Would be like asking a SMN to come and do earthen ward....

No matter how good and how well geared -you- are, when you're on an event involving lot of players, you cannot say "I won't get hit for sure", because you're not only relying on yourself but also on others. And relying on others often means that unexpected things may happen.

tl;dr :

Bringing this up from the grave to say this:

BLM/SCH rocks!

+1 INT over /RDM
Parsimony (with chance that Conserve MP kicks in = wtf, 40 mp for a Blizzard IV?)
Raise/Reraise
Enfeebling Magic +

I'm loving BLM/SCH tbh
I'm like wtf you guys resting for? I'm like full mp most of the time now XD

BLM taru, same *** :] In all event where MP refill occur often, MP management is not an issue anymore.

I completely love rdm/sch for events like dynamis where there are plenty of sleepers.. And rdm/sch is killer for things like ZNM where you might need a little more nuking power but you are able to hold MP forever. I have limited experience with blm but I always did blm/sch and it was sweet.

I don't wana level ANOTHER mage job for my rdm damnt

I'd love to be able to /SCH on my BRD, but that would be suicide. I spend too much time in mob AoE range, and pinging every melee/tank with Pianissimo'd songs would take too much time. I'd also hate to lose -na spells, Curagas, and Erase.