Hate Control For DD

Particularly in regards to birds. I am MNK 65, my first job. Occasionally, I'll WS and pull hate... or if I've got haste gear on + haste spell + good acc, I'll get hate from mob too.

I love keeping my food, so here is what I try to do to manage hate:
1. Time WS near tank's Provoke
2. Wait until mob is below 60% HP or so before I WS to build hate on tank
3. Rotate out JA's over time as they expire (Focus / Berserk)
4. No Boost, except before single-hit WS if it is later in fight
5. If I do get hate and getting beat up, I'll macro DEF gear, throw Dodge and turn around until mob gets off me.

Is there anything I should add to this or change? Must I ditch the haste if it puts me in Hate country or should tank be able to cover? Do single-hit weapon skills generate less enmity than a multi-hit? e.g. asssuming damage is the same, would they generate equal enmity?

Thanks.

Get better tanks?

get a thf or get a pld worth his/her salt.

You will see the difference with a thf because you will be able to SC with him/her Howling Fists -> D.E. makes distortion that alone will give the pld plenty of hate.

BTW If a pld can't keep hate, then i don't know what tank would, I guess plds don't worry as much about enmity nowadays?

I bring along my Port-A-Mage when I am on Drk/Sam doing Meripo.

I like to play Drk like a zerg, so I leave all /ja up like Last Resort and Souleater, I spam CureV with my Whm though. It is hella fun.

Grab another char and get all the hate you can and cap Guard ^^

I 'offer' to /thf sometimes. Gimps overall dmg output but saves food and mp. Give and take.

Or that, or /Nin

/nin really offers nothing to a mnk or sam imo ^^. Besides, its a party environment, help the tank keep hate, not just help yourself stay alive long when he loses it lol.

Fail

Heh, I love how everyone instantly wishes to blame the tanks... but when it comes to it, DDs have been getting steadily more powerful, whereas the tanks have remained about the same (in enmity generation terms)-- why some plds have found DDing helps build enmity rather than sticking w/ old full-def style...

regardless of style, any tank WILL loose hate. Thats just the simple end of it... too many DDs dont care about managing their hate, and go all out all the time

And that is why this OP is <3 because he actually cares, and is looking for methods to still be useful to pt, but not end up tanking himself... managing the hate line (which it seems only good DDs bother to do, since the sam/2hand update, I've found fewer and fewer caring, and more going out for huge numbers and parses)

In addition to what you do...

/thf sometimes
or one thing I like to do on bst, and will do when I start lvling a DD gear... mix-match some -enmity gear into the mix...
so as mnk I'd probably wear raven hose and head... because there aren't that many uber dd pieces for those slots, so can pimp out other slots and get a -12 enmity for loosing just 2 slots -- it wont be an instant charm, but it should help in combination w/ whatelse you do

otherwise... the rest really depends on pt setup and tank *shrug*

Since i hit lvl 60 i changed to /nin cuz no tank can hold the hate (cept with a THF in the pt maybe^^).

Sub nin and don't WS till 50% mob hp unless you are in some sore of xp SC. Easy fix.

To the OP if your worried about losing food, dont xp on birds.

It's just a problem with DDs more than anything. Sometimes the tank just stinks, but once you hit the mid-60s, a good DD will always have the potential to pull hate from a tank.

At that point, the things to consider are:

How much longer will the mob live?
What defensive options does the DD have?
What are the recasts/MP/etc. situation on the tank?

Really, the biggest slowing factor for most EXP parties is MP use and/or K.O. people.

If you can maintain better hate control by toning it down a notch, thus saving a ton of MP or deaths, then you probably will improve the overall party performance compared to doing that little bit extra and getting dropped.

A weakened DD is not doing anything for the party.

It seems like you're already aware of this and play smartly in that vein.

In the end, it's a playstyle choice. Some people just want to see the absolute max of damage they can do and let the party flow be damned at the expense of their e-peen needs.

SOME (not most) merit parties can handle all of the DDs going full bore, but most parties are not setup for that.

IF you really want to go all out as a MNK, your best chance will be going old school to KRT for a "Monkburn" type party. The EXP will not be as good as ToAU camps, but it's decent enough, and for a Monk with a need to just get their punch on and bash some crap, there's nothing better to soothe the need.

It's /WAR only, and with lots of healing power. I prefer 3 MNK/WAR, RDM, WHM, BRD, but you can vary that for 4 MNK if you want. I prefer to have the extra healer and let the Monks just uncork it that much more.

I think the last time I did KRT on WHM we managed up to about chain 60 or so before we ran out of stuff to kill and just decided to take a quick WC break and reload for the next tear.

Forgot to mention other "Full Bore" setup I like is for Mamool SP North Camp (Jade Sepulchur):

NIN/WAR (A good DD NIN, we're talking 800-1200 Blade: Jin)
SAM/WAR
SAM/WAR
RDM/WHM
WHM/SMN (normally I hate /SMN, but it's good for this)
BRD/WHM (no matter what they think, BRD do not need /NIN for Mamool camp unless you're pulling Skoffin, they just need skill and cojones)

The DDs don't have to be SAM, but that's what I was on when I did it, and it was awesome fun and about 20k/hr (45k in just a hair over 2 hr). MNK/WAR, WAR/SAM, DRK/SAM, etc would all work great, too.

Both SAM were full time Hasso and Berserk, very rarely swapping to Seigan. Usually the Ninja's Jin and a single skillchain from the Samurai was enough to drop a mob, and the large amount of healing power meant that taking a shot for a few hundred because you had Berserk up was no big deal.

Really unless you have 2 healers, you can't afford to have DDs going 100% unless they all /NIN, and on the real, /NIN is not 100% for any DD. The DDs do need to be savvy in their timing of WS and all, but if you get into a groove with a group doing this style of party, it's fun and lets you really rip.

I love to merit SAM/WAR, but not if I have to use Seigan the entire time and drop Berserk a lot, too. It pretty much defeats the purpose if I have to gimp myself. That's why I merit SAM/DNC most of the time (if people want to hate on this, start a new thread about it please).

Agree with Sidi

I have 5 Str merits and the rest geared towards damage. I find it impossible to keep hate off me at times when I am on Rng or Drk.

Most a Tank can do is what, Enimity +4 in merits?

I have found that more and more DD's are building themselves to do the maximum damage they can do regardless of hate buildup. Even with lots of hate gear & merits, a decent damage spike can take hate for a few turns off of a paladin. Its nice to see someone conserned with taking hate from the tank. Only other suggestion I have would be to swing around behind the tank before you weaponskill so they can throw up cover on you almost instantly. Just remember Cover has a 3 min recast.

The best exp partys are the ones that work together to keep the hate where it belongs, that extra 15-20 damage on a weapon skill really isnt important when all it does is get your head pecked in >.>

Yeah, try leveling Monk in the 30s with O.Kote, and Critical Hit and STR merits. You will have to try to not get hate...

Something funny I saw last night.
We had a BRD/NIN, BRD/WHM, RDM/WHM, MNK/WAR, SAM/NIN, and NIN/WAR.
The SAM, BRDs and RDM did fine.
The NIN was non-stop using tools and JAs to keep hate.

The MNK/WAR... well, he HAD to flex his e-peen.
He used {Counterstance} and {Berserk} on imps.
Then he wondered why he was dying so quick and wondered why my cures took hate all the time.

I was baffled, this guy was 68 and didn't know anything about hate control.
Sure, we got 10k xp in an hour.
But if he went /NIN, we could have gotten 15-20k an hour.
Yes, he would sacrifice a bit of damage, but things would have been SO much smoother.

Damage output is important, but so is control.
It's like a teenager with raging hormones and an adult that controls them.
~Yote

@ Yote

Control is especially important on Imps and even more so if you have RDM for healer. RDM don't get crap for -enmity compared to WHM, and those Cure IV casts pull a lot of hate.

I dropped a static on BRD in that level range because they refused to control hate and refused to get a WHM healer. I was blowing 20-30k per party on Echo Drops, and I just didn't need that crap.

I had a better time with my new static that was PLD, DRG, DRK, WHM, BRD and then whatever random DD we got to fill out. The DRG and DRK were usually both /SAM and dropping huge Light skillchains that would level most mobs, and the DRG would often close and Super Jump when it was up. The communication between everyone, including the PLD and WHM was fabulous, and it was a pleasure to EXP with those guys.

Hate was controlled, and while we had a lolPLD, lolDRG, and lolWHM, (no I really don't feel that way, just saying it for effect), I'd wager we were outdoing most NIN, RDM, e-peen DD parties our level.

Yeah, I also love how everyone wants to blame the tank when they lose hate, like they're supposed to plan for a DD dropping hundreds of points of spike damage on a mob with no notice.

DD's are just as responsible for hate control as tanks and healers. Just like a WHM that's dropping back to back Cure IV's is gonna get bitched at, a DD needs to learn to turn it down a notch when the situation calls for it. For example, I have a static THF, RNG, DNC trio (we all /nin). THF and I can trade hate back and forth pretty easily, but RNG wants to drop huge sidewinder-barrage-sidewinder bombs, well, because he CAN, and I'm sure you can imagine that it's damn near impossible to get hate off of him after he does that ***. Then I get to dump a crazy amount of heals on him, wasting TP to keep him alive, because RNG can't take a punch for ***. The whole situation could have been avoided if he'd have just waited a few more seconds for the mob to get a little lower in health and ensure that his craziness is going to end the fight, but I find that attitude to be common among pure DD's.

But anyways, to the OP, yeah...find that fine line where your maximizing DMG output without taking the mob off of the tank, and then stick with it, all the things you suggested are good ideas. The first few mobs of any exp party (again, in my opinion) should be treated as "warm up" mobs anyway. Let everyone get a feel for the rhythm of the fight and all that, figure out a good skillchain, etc. It only serves to make things more expedient later when everyone has a clearer idea of what they can and can't do within a certain party configuration.

Ok, this is where you lost me... Skillchain, wut?

(I'm 100% kidding)

One of the most fun parties I had on DD in last few months was Sync 67 party in Bibiki Bay (OMG, Another dirty word, just like Skillchain).

PLD, SAM/THF, DRK/THF, COR, BRD, RDM.

At 67 with GK merits, I had Tachi: Kasha, so we did SA Tachi: Kasha, SATA Spinning Slash.

When I had Sekkanoki up, I'd TA Tachi: Gekko on PLD, then run to dhalmel-butt for SA Kasha for Fusion, which the DRK would SATA Spinning Slash on the PLD to drop for total Skillchain damages sometimes pushing 3k.

It was total win, and hella fun to go back to basics and do it like they do on the Discovery Channel. With COR and BRD, we were both at our attack cap for the level, so damage was very consistent. OMG, a skillchain, hate control, and Bibiki Bay all in one post. I'm gonna get flamed for sure! I even mentioned KRT earlier...

This is why I despise the whole /nin trend. It basically says "Okay, I can abandon all responsibility and consideration for the tank and do whatever I want because I have shadows to protect me!". I understand it's useful in various situations to help conserve MP so everyone doesn't become a MP sponge when they take hate or get nailed by AOE, or when there are no tanks present for whatever it is you're doing. However, when I see everyone and their dog sub ninja for virtually everything they do it just irks me.

Every job class has responsibilities and is liable for their tasks and needs at least some consideration to look out for your party/alliance members. When I see others WS @ 90% mob HP in a merit party and justify themselves because they have ninja sub it just makes me wanna kick a puppy or something.

<3

LOL I know, that's why I honestly prefer less exp/hour with trio's and 4-mans where we all know these things then full parties in a PUG, because most PU players out there seem to have lost the concept, and when they do manage to pull one off, they're like "Ooooh pretty...." and can't duplicate it lol.



LOL what crazy alternate dimension are YOU from?? ^^

You're too fast, I already Ninja'd my post to include more.

And yeah, 3-4 man parties chaining the hell out of Very Tough is way more fun then than 6-manning.

I have a 15-37 roadmap to success all setup for lowmanning, but I don't dare post it because I worked it out on my own. I've used it to level countless subjobs with countless setups. It's not about "what job do you have?" it's about "what role can you fill?"

That's how Corion and I were tearing up the Palace farming Ghrah with SAM/DNC and SAM/NIN. Not only was it very productive, but we had a hell of a fun time.

What?! You mean you didn't all sub ninja?! You didn't just WS @100% every time?! And you skillchained?! You're lucky there was no magic burst or else we'd have to have you hanged for not being a trend following clown of ToAU babies.

/end sarcastic rant

I don't think anyone is saying don't do enough damage, I think they are saying control hate.

I pull hate on SAM/DNC with Soboro in merit parties over SAM/NIN with Hagun, and I still a) keep myself alive and mostly healed, and b) contribute more to the party.

With SAM/DNC + Soboro + Haste Gear + Hasso + Haste Spell, I can face tank a bird and barely take any damage at all that I don't drain right back. I expect to lose my food, so I usually bring 3 stacks of kabobs or more with me.

Uh oh, SAM/DNC in merit party.... more flames, I can feel em...

If it's a constant thing that's hampering the party, after being told to crank it down a notch, then I'm sorry, as a main healer, I'm gonna let a DD die if they keep doing that ***. I find death to be a wonderful deterrent to DD's that wanna go balls out without a thought to enmity control...

Inorite?

Actually, we were trying to figure out a way to get an MB in (the RDM would do it sometimes), and with us hitting attack cap with COR and BRD, we figured maybe drop one of the two of them and get a BLM in there.

Wow, I'm stacking up the hatemail list:

Skillchains
Hate Control
DD not /NIN
Bibiki Bay (and KRT honorable mention)
Black Mage in a party for Magic Bursts