SA TA SATA Suggestions

He's exaggerating, even with 400 combined DEX/AGI capped pdif, fstr, Kila+2 D, and 50% crit damage, you don't hit 3000.

43D + 12fstr = 55
+400 combined DEX/Agi
*3.0 pdif
*1.50 = 2047

You would need just over 600 combined Dex/Agi

I recall maxing out at around 1300 Sneak Attack and 1000 Trick Attack against Spitting Spiders in Vunkies with those sets (but using a Kila +2 mainhand). I can poke around tonight and get some more numbers too.

Results! Not very promising. I did 9 sneak attacks and 9 trick attacks against spiders in vunkies (all Tough to a level 90). Obviously a whopping NINE tests is not conclusive, but it's still enough to get a ballpark. Including atmas (GH/RR/Apoc) and cruor buffs, and using the sets I posted before, here's what I had:

SNEAK ATTACK
Str 80+61
Dex 94+148
Attack 508
Twilight knife mainhand

Damage from lowest to highest: 752, 818, 833, 927, 1036, 1054, 1077, 1138, 1178


TRICK ATTACK
Str 80+40
Agi 89+139
Attack 463
Twilight knife mainhand

Damage: 698, 706, 721, 781, 792, 793, 966, 975, 1007

That seems about right. You were probably just missing a lot of support/buffs. Go back and try it again with food, dia2, temp items and other buffs and you will blissfully drunk on your own power. If you team up with a 2nd thief you two can drop exp monsters in just a couple attack rounds.

I'm pretty sure you will get more out of using Atheling, over Aisance & Nifty.

Assuming no weapon skills involved:

Maat's Cap would be the ideal head piece for both TA and SATA (7STR > 1AGI).

Atheling Mantle would be the best back piece for both SA and TA. The attack on it is so massive it over powers the DEX and AGI on the other pieces.

Crudelis Belt would also be your best bet at a waist piece for TA the -8 Att bumps the Sveltesse Gouriz to one of the worst belts you can use >.> it is a really nice evasion belt though.

Tumbler Trunks are the best leg piece for SA bar none.

Rajas Ring will edge out Thundersoul ring in one of your slots for SA by a very small margin.

Shamaya Made a thread on live journal involving sneak and trick gear here: http://shamayaasura.livejournal.com/7505.html
It's pretty interesting, most people do not agree with his stance on movement speed gear but it is obvious that haste is a factor when using SA and TA. Here is a list from that post with new gear added using the point values he described (there may be a few mistakes but someone can check the math if they feel like its off):

SA
(head)
Aias Bonnet (30.24) > Maat's Cap (26.46) > Skadi's Visor (25.41) > Assasin's Bonnet +1 (15.48) = Deceit Mask (15.48) > Voyager Sallet (13.92) > Gnadbhod's Helm (13.84) > Walahra Turban (13.25) > Assasins Bonnet (12.9) > Emp.Pin (7.74) > Heca+1 (0.84)

(neck)
Love Torque (20.04) > Kubira Bead Necklace (15.08) > Spike Necklace (11.34)

(ears)
Suppanomimi (10.8 ) > Jupiter's Pearl (10.32) > Aesir Ear Pendant (8.33) > Pixie (7.74) > Merman's (7.14) > Coral (5.95) > Hollow/Adroit (5.16) > Brutal (5.0)

(body)
Dragon Harness+1 (32.34) Loki's Kaftan (28.38 +5% =??) > DH nq (27.38) > Skadi (26.59) > Anatares Harness (20.64) > BlueCote +1 (16.32) > WarAketon +1 (12.9) > Rapp (10.6)

(hand)
Raider's Armlets +2 (49.28 +15%SA) > Raider's Armlets +1 (34.58 + 15%SA) >ANNM Dragon Mitts (20.44) > Ample Gloves (18.9) > Skadi Bazubands (17.9) > Dusk+1(2xMarch) (17.74)* > Enkidu's (15.12) > Tarasque Mitts +1 (14.28 ) => Dusk(2xMarch) (13.9)* > Merman's (8.94) > AF (7.74) Heafoc Mitts (5.28) > Heca +1 (4.02) > Alkyoneus's Bracelets (-2.28)

(rings)
Rajas Ring (18.9) > Thundersoul Ring (18.06) > Zilant Ring (15.48) > 5Dex Ring (12.9) > Strigoi Ring (10.77)

(back)
Atheling Mantle (26.8 ) > Charger's Mantle (23.8 ) > Nifty Mantle (23.61) > Cerberus Mantle +1 (22.65) > Forager's (21.45) > Amemet +1 (20.25) > Cuchulain's (15.12) > Commander's (11.34) > AF2 (10.32)

(waist)
Cuchulain's Belt (27.38) > Ninurta's (23.04) > Warwolf (18.9) > Speed Belt (15.9) > Swordbelt +1 (14.28)

(leg)
Tumbler Trunks (34.32) > Raider's Culottes +2 (27.26) > Matre Bragezenn (25.8 ) >Raider's Culottes +1 (19.8 ) > Enkidu's (18.9) > Dusk (16.66)* > Oily Trousers (12.9) = Dragon +1 (12.9) > Hecatomb Subligar (12.76) > Barbarossa's (12.75) > Hecatomb Subligar +1 (12.44) > Dragon Subligar (10.32)

(feet)
Enkidu's (17.8 ) > Alcd. Leggings +1 (16.07) Lithe Boots (15.48) > Dragon +1 (13.89) > Dragon (10.12) > Dusk Ledelsens (10.06)* > Leaping/bounding boots (7.74)


TA
(head)
Maat's Cap (35.21) > Skadi's Visor (33.02) > Denali Bonnet (31.18) > Bersail Cap (26.8 ) >Deceit Mask (22.44) > Dragon cap +1 (16.75) > WalahraTurban (17.5) > Dragon (13.4) > Emp.Pin (11.22)

(neck)
Artctier's Torque (20.1) > Hope Torque (16.75) > Crocodile Collar (13.4) > Love Torque (9.51) > Kubira Bead Necklace (6.75) > Agile Gorget (6.7) > Justice Torque (6.45) > Tiger Stole (6.3) > Spike Necklace (5.04)

(ears)
Suppanomimi (19.65) > Auster's Pearl (13.4) = Genin (13.4) > Drone (10.05) > Aesir Ear Pendant (8.82) > Merman's (7.56) > Coral (6.3) > Brutal (5.0)

(body)
Denali Jacket (44.84) > Dragon Harness +1 (41.3) > Loki's Kaftan (36.85) > Skadi (36.22) > DH nq (35.04) > Antares Harness (26.8 ) > BlueCote+1(24.76) > Rapp (14.0)

(hand)
AF+1 (?, ~54.77) > Skadi (35.8 ) > Dusk+1(2xMarch) (21.56)* > Dragon+1 (20.53) > Dusk(2xMarch) (16.8 )* > Dragon (15.92) > Heafoc Mitts (15.21) > Tarasque Mitts +1 (15.12)

(rings)
Stormsoul Ring (23.45) > Blobnag Ring (20.1) > 5Agi Ring (16.75) > Rajas (8.4)

(back)
Atheling Mantle (28.2) > Charger's Mantle (25.2) > Cerberus Mantle +1 (24.06) > Forager's (22.77) > Amemet +1 (21.48) > Aisance Mantle+1 (18.7) > Commander's (15.09) > AF2 (14.96)

(waist)
Ninurta Sash (28.56) > Crudelis Belt (23.20) > Speed Belt (21.0) > Grenadier Belt (18.87) > Swordbelt +1 (15.12) > Scouter's (13.4) > Sveltesse Gouriz (13.13) > Ryl. Knight's Belt (10.06) > Vanguard Belt (10.17) > Warwolf Belt (8.4) > Swift Belt (7.7)

(leg)
Ambusher's Hose (33.5) > Dusk+1 (18.9)* > Oily Trousers (18.7) > Dusk (17.64)* > War Brais +1 (16.75) > Barbarossa's (15.66) > WarBrais/AF (13.4) > Heca nq (-13.68) > Hecatomb Subligar +1 (-17.77)

(feet)
Raider's Poulaines +2 (50.25) > Raider's Poulaines +1 (40.2) > Enkidu's (23.26) > Lithe Boots (20.1) > Dragon +1 (18.74) > Dragon (13.74) > Dusk (13.3)* > Leaping/bounding boots (11.22)

Why is Haste a factor when using SA and TA?

Because it slows down/speeds up your next attack round (with Slow/Haste respectively) and if the dmg gain, from usnig heca say, isn't great enough then the loss in dot will overtake it.

Note, if all your'e doing is SA and TA and not meleeing (TH whoring) or always stacking SA/TA with WS, the haste/slow thing doesn't apply.

The delay between a soloSA or TA hit and the next melee hit is not constant like a WS - essentially they are just augmented normal hits, so Haste/Dual Wield determine the timing of the next hit. Sometimes it is therefore not worth giving up lots of Haste for a small amount of stat.

This argument is somewhat weakened by SA or TA hits to end fights or if you are ONLY SA and TAing etc, but it's still worth taking into consideration.

Right, ty for the clarification.

400 combine agi and dex isn't that high... I kinda break 420 naked if I have full zone boost with my normal atmas.

Also af+1 give 15% increase to the agi bonus and af3+1 probably does about as much to the dex and +2 probably more though if anyone has links to testing or amounts that would be nice.

Also there is the +0-5% randomization factor. So since don't know the value on af3 just using af+1 could hit 3k with more like 500ish combine agi/dex if more of it is agi. Well not counting mobs that take extra dmg.

What about Cavaros Mantle with its crit dmg increase? why would 20 att overpower it?

Because you already have alot of +crit dmg. Assuming RR loki you are already running 43. Heck 49 if you using a good yata. So that means cavaros would only increase your dmg on crits by .6-2.1%.

I think you really underestimate how much att does. Assuming say a mob def of 400 and attack of say 700 with say 5 lvl diff 20 att would add 2.1-3% dmg on crits... more on no crits. Of course that's assuming you could get that high attack with percentage buffs (which pretty much means att/str atmas and brd) since they would be applied to that +20 attack making it more.

Ah yes, that post isn't necessarily the thing to go by when doing WS in combination with SA or TA or when not constantly engaged. In those cases, Haste will not make a difference.

I also did not take Crit damage on pieces like Loki's into account. That added % could change where it would go.

Why is jupiter's earring so much higher (10.32) than pixie (7.74) when they're both dex+3 ?

I think he meant the +4 item "Jupiter's pearl"

Yes, sorry, it was pearl.

Got a question on this:


Where would Raider's vest +2 fit in? Would it not be the best/second best due to having 5% haste and possible proc with set bonus?

Yes, it's probably the best piece. Idk how crit attack bonus fares with shamaya's system tho. It's unlikely to beat haste anyway.

But haste is only a variable if you are meleeing full time. That is, if you charge sa/ta while engaged, haste will do better than most amounts of dex or agi. If you precharge sa/ta and run towards the mob, haste is not a issue. And i'm pretty sure haste is not accounted on our first melee round, only the engage animation delay is checked.

This is essentially how i roll. I have both haste and full damage sets. 4 macros slots. I use the haste sets if i'm currently engaged and the full damage ones if i'm idle. Could delegate spellcast to do this for me, but i like the control.

I just have to say, in regards to the DPS issue, one needs to evaluate the circumstances involved. When Sham made those calculations, merit parties were the shining jewel of "what can we do" in terms of maximizing potential. Very few Aby merit parties are anything like old school merit parties. Kills are now faster, sometimes so fast that you maybe get two or three swings before the mob dies. If the kills aren't that fast, then if you're a decently geared THF with good atma, the mob's yours for most of the fight anyway, often making SA moot. Maximizing DPS means TPing at 100%. Maximizing DPS with SA or TA is chasing the illusion that everything goes as planned. Even in old school merits, this maximizing ended up more of a fantasy than a reality, with the parsed differences between those who spike maxed and those who dps maxed their SA and TA being so small they were statistical irrelevant (given the same level of gear of course). Play how you want, but the spike damage we can produce now is quite amazing and that all by itself is enough to make me be a spike maxing THF.

Also, one other thing to point out about Sham's calculations: He increased the modifiers to improve the value of AGI with AF+1 hands, but that has not been done for AF3+1 or +2 hands. I'm not sure what the calculations should look like, but I do know that because of those hands, the value of DEX increases in those calculations. I would be certain that because of those hands, even with DPS maxing, Pixie would outperform Suppa, etc. In fact, using the same equation for DEX as Sham uses for AGI does just that.

In fact if we use the numbers Sham uses for AGI as the DEX modifiers, which would account for a 15% increase in DEX overall, the results look like this:

Aias Bonnet (36.4) Lightsome (30.15) = better than Skadi (28.49)
Jupiter's Pearl (13.4) / Suppanomimi (10.8) / Pixie (10.05)
Loki's Kaftan (36.85)*/ Raider's Vest +2 (52.7)
Nifty Mantle (27.46) / Atheling Mantle (26.8)
Tumbler Trunks (38.17)/Raider's Culottes +2 (36.7)
Aurore Gaiters (22.05) / Lithe Boots (20.1)

So, overall, not a lot of change, but a number of DEX heavy items became more potent than the attack heavy items. Looks like Pixie isn't quite overwhelming supp in that scenario, but with +2 AF3 hands it should. Note that I'm not sure what to do with Loki's b/c of the crit modifying stat. Don't know how to calculate its value. As well, I've only highlighted a few here that I had assumed would find a substantial increase with the new calculations.

Yeah, there are many new variables that change Shamaya's findings. The biggest one i think is JA delay, which was something that came to be better defined much later.

There are other issues to think about too, at least, inside abyssea. Dex is overly devalued there because we already have so much of it. The super epeen SA set won't do so much more damage than a super fast one then. And to boot, there is also our superhuman crit rate/multi-hits to devalue even more a forced crit that isn't affected by them.

Anyway, the best advice i can give for anyone worried about maxing sa/ta damage is to check the spreadsheet made by Kinematics (same guy that build the kparser). It helped me tweak all my sa/ta sets a lot. I linked it on the first page.

Dex isn't devalued. It doesn't reach a cap. Every point of dex will continue to add and add and add damage. 10 points more damage may be more noticeable at 500 damage than at 1500, but it's still 10 more points. It's the other way around; regular hits have become more valuable. So the question is, after that job ability delay and SA hit, when you're going for you next strike, the only strike impacted by your gear change, is 25% haste and w/e dual wield involved in getting to that next hit going to make up for the loss in spike damage? Only in the long term, when you've done so many SA and TA attacks that that second lost will finally add up to an extra dagger hit. You really want to know whether it's better dot to put in haste gear or dw gear instead of dex, then calculate how much more time that one hit will take. Chances are you'd have to SA or TA four or more times in a single battle to ever see a difference, and the difference at that point will be one dagger strike. Is that one dagger strike stronger than the damage you removed from the spike? If so, congratulations, you squeezed blood from the stone.

When i said devalued, i did mean its marginal gain. It's not about reaching a cap, it's about, like you put it, the notability. 10 damage of top of 500 means more than 10 damage on top of 1500. And considering haste has increasing marginal gains (opposed to a decreasing one), it's not something unreasonble to fall back to.

Isn't squeezing blood from a stone what this game is all about anyway? We wouldn't have so many "what's better" threads otherwise.