FFXIV Under New Managment?

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FFXIV under new managment?
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 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-12-14 14:38:28
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Unmei said:
...closest thing you'll get to a sweatshop in mmo's are chinese gil farmers. But the sweat shop thing was a joke I doubt he was being serious.
You have no idea how games are made anymore, do you?
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By Unmei 2010-12-14 14:56:14
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Ok so what games are being developed in sweatshop's? I guess you have Chinese students that are going to college for a video game design just to graduate and work for practically free in Chinese sweatshops. Ok I'm not even going to argue this I never herd of this Its possible but maybe you can provide a link so I can research this info myself.

Edit:That article is about outsourcing not game designing sweatshops.
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By 2010-12-14 15:01:36
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By Unmei 2010-12-14 15:02:47
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Caitsith.Shiroi said:
Unmei said:
Asura.Aziel said:
Sounds like someone has never heard of Foxconn. However, just to humour you:
Unmei said:

LOL @ sweatshops in china, people in sweatshops aren't smart enough to design games
Perhaps that is why this one is so horribly made.

I guess you never herd of Foxconn either they manufacture electronic products like computer chips or mobo's and ***ipods, iphones maybe computer parts all this fall in line with a sweat shop/assembly line work but they don't design games its totally different closest thing you'll get to a sweatshop in mmo's are chinese gil farmers. But the sweat shop thing was a joke I doubt he was being serious.

He is serious. But you probably have more MMO developping experience to prove him wrong, right?

I see your nothing but a robot you should go in the military they would love you in there...GTFO

Caitsith.Shiroi said:

wow lol you just have no idea, why do you think they outsource work? To save money and why do they save money by outsourcing? because the people who will work on it are serverly underpaid.

Do you really think programmers / hackers in china are all from schools? =/

I'm not going to back and forth with you for 5 pages like Dub. I honestly think your a little HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE or have some type of mental disorder. I'm not responding to you anymore so don't waste your text on me.
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By 2010-12-14 15:05:04
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 Asura.Aziel
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By Asura.Aziel 2010-12-14 15:11:15
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...All right. I was about to type out something a little more in-depth, but after reloading and seeing that, I feel like my words might be wasted on you, Unmei.

Simply know that there's a reason this game is referred to as "Chinal Fantasy" In Japan, lol.
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By Unmei 2010-12-14 15:20:32
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Asura.Aziel said:
...All right. I was about to type out something a little more in-depth, but after reloading and seeing that, I feel like my words might be wasted on you, Unmei.

Simply know that there's a reason this game is referred to as "Chinal Fantasy" In Japan, lol.

I'm not arguing that they didn't outsource when developing this game. My point was that it is not being done in a Chinese sweatshop. The definition of a sweatshop is where you have people working for unreasonable hours for barely no pay like 2 dollars and hour for 14 hour shifts. This is what takes place in sweatshops where they make sneakers and clothes ect... I'm saying no one goes to college for x amount years to learn game development just to be forced to work in an actual sweatshop. Gil farming is different it takes no educational back ground to be a gil farmer and you can also hire children to gil farm,This is totally different from the knowledge it takes to design a game.
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By 2010-12-14 15:38:08
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By Dubont 2010-12-14 21:37:48
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Dubont said:
Different teams worked on 14 than those that worked on 11...so there was no transfer of knowledge. Your first point holds no water.
That is the entire point.

SE appears to be the only company in MMO history who's produced two games of the same genre with absolutely no personnel or knowledge transfer. Instead, they evidently outsourced most of it to sweatshops in China. Why are you defending that decision?
I'm not defending anything. I'm merely saying that the statement "SE didn't lean from their mistakes!" isn't completely valid since 2 totally different teams work on each game. If it were the same team that fkd up in 14 as the one that fkd up in 11, then it would be a true statement, but as it stands, that is not completely true.
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By Sylph.Belmonth 2010-12-15 10:15:11
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Funny enough, I got into the DC universe beta for PS3 and it's fun as hell lawl, too many things to do, surprising for a beta, and the download was almost 15GB large. Played it for giggles not expecting much but totally turned me around and hooked me up.
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By Lakshmi.Hypnotizd 2010-12-15 10:29:44
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Dubont said:
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Dubont said:
Different teams worked on 14 than those that worked on 11...so there was no transfer of knowledge. Your first point holds no water.
That is the entire point.

SE appears to be the only company in MMO history who's produced two games of the same genre with absolutely no personnel or knowledge transfer. Instead, they evidently outsourced most of it to sweatshops in China. Why are you defending that decision?
I'm not defending anything. I'm merely saying that the statement "SE didn't lean from their mistakes!" isn't completely valid since 2 totally different teams work on each game. If it were the same team that fkd up in 14 as the one that fkd up in 11, then it would be a true statement, but as it stands, that is not completely true.
That has to be the worst defense I've ever heard. Even if two separate teams worked on it, do you really believe no one that worked on or played FFXI even looked at FFXIV during its development?

I have a hard time believing this.
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By Dubont 2010-12-15 10:36:05
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Lakshmi.Hypnotizd said:
Dubont said:
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Dubont said:
Different teams worked on 14 than those that worked on 11...so there was no transfer of knowledge. Your first point holds no water.
That is the entire point.

SE appears to be the only company in MMO history who's produced two games of the same genre with absolutely no personnel or knowledge transfer. Instead, they evidently outsourced most of it to sweatshops in China. Why are you defending that decision?
I'm not defending anything. I'm merely saying that the statement "SE didn't lean from their mistakes!" isn't completely valid since 2 totally different teams work on each game. If it were the same team that fkd up in 14 as the one that fkd up in 11, then it would be a true statement, but as it stands, that is not completely true.
That has to be the worst defense I've ever heard. Even if two separate teams worked on it, do you really believe no one that worked on or played FFXI even looked at FFXIV during its development? Do you really think they were like "yes, laggy menus, no content, one main story quest, endless grinding, etc is great! FFXI is garbage so lets reinvent everything!"

I have a hard time believing this.
Again, I'm not defending anything. I'm merely saying that two different teams worked on the game. There's no doubt that some of the devs from 11 worked on 14, but the majority of the people for 14 weren't devs in 11. So, to say that they should have learned from their mistakes would be true if it were the same team, but it's not. My guess is that a lot of the people that worked on 14 were inexperienced with online gaming. That, and the game was rushed by Wada and his money grabbers.
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-12-16 00:02:15
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Ragnarok.Alo said:
<off-topic>
I would love to hear your opinion on the game, did you post anywhere else about your experience?
</off-topic>

No, I figured a XIV forum (even my own) wasn't a very good place to talk too widely about my WoW experience. Nobody wants to hear it.

That being said, I have made one big discovery.

For all the ***I used to give them for it, "Kill Ten Rats" (And Then Move the Hell On) is a lot more fun than sitting in one of a handful of exp camps and pulling hundreds if not thousands of the same contested mob over and over for days or weeks at a time.
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By Lakshmi.Hypnotizd 2010-12-16 00:04:28
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But those Colibri and Crabs miss you :'(
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 Asura.Aziel
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By Asura.Aziel 2010-12-16 15:40:33
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Jaerik actually inspired me to make a real reply rather than the vague and uninterested replies I have made thus far. Now, if only I could borrow some of that eloquence.

I think we can all literally count the amount of problems this game has which players have addressed, on this site even, and the "counter" posts don't contain any thought, being nothing more than "nuh uhs" like the little 5th graders I hang out with when I'm babysitting my nephew and niece.

Now, I've really tried to quit being interested in WoW, and there's a few things I want to point out before putting my opinion on the actual topic (the topic which SHOULD be being discussed, but isn't being discussed). Let's put all rumours about outsourcing the entirety of the game to China (regardless of how factual or not they may be), shall we?

While it is blatantly obvious that almost any of these posters seem to know nothing about the MMO genre, let me give a quick rundown about MMOs over the years. Because believe it or not, this does apply to any MMO, even if it's a Final Fantasy game.

MMO's are unique games, in that they need to give you a sense of accomplishment without actually letting you "complete" the game. This is pretty obvious, because it's meant to be a game that goes on and on and on forever. This is a Final Fantasy title that must adhere to this in order to survive. If you complete any MMO, you either play too much or the MMO doesn't have enough content, and therefore is not a very good MMO.

Any other FF game is about a set story that goes along a given script and has a conclusion. MMOs as a genre do not have a conclusion. They may have stories with conclusions, but they do not encompass the conclusion of the game.

After story, gameplay as well is unique to MMOs. If you have ever played UO (as probably most of you have not) they have greatly differed in this department over the last decade.

UO was a game that consisted of a few basic ideas: grinding, PvP (or PK as it was universally known), and the actual content that is meant to be enjoyed,

In older MMOs, the "enjoyable" content was virtually non-existent. Grinding and PvP were the two most common aspects, and easily the most remembered. As UO was a very successful MMO (for it's time) this basic formula has proven effective, and is therefore reused for ALL MMOs from that point. That is how any genre of video games makes progress and improves.

Now let's take a look at MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games) which is the unique RPG version of the MMO style of game. If you didn't know, there are games that are actually different from the games you play. As the MMO genre continues to progress, in a process of trial and error other styles of MMO besides the RPG style are being attempted in order to pioneer possibly new popular game genres, much like how the MMORPG genre was pioneered in the first place.

Now if we take MMO (Grinding, subscriptions, huge world with lots of players) and combine it with RPG (story, usually western or eastern style) you get an MMORPG. Often, as it has been a proven and effective method, fantasy is used as the setting. It doesn't matter if it's western (Shadowbane) or eastern (Aion) it is fantasy, and it is the most common (because it is proven to be successful, and is what the majority is interested in playing).

As we now have an MMORPG, it is an MMO with RPG elements to make it unique among other MMOs. An MMORPG that contains little story does not compliment it's RPG aspect, and is therefore not a good RPG, as well as an MMORPG that disregards it's MMO aspect is not seen as a good MMO. These can still be good games, however, though it is very rare. This is usually accomplished through great game design leaned in an unbalanced direction into one way or the other, if you look at the success of Guild Wars, this is very obvious.

Guild Wars was heavily instanced, which really detracted a lot from the MMO aspect, but it was seen as a great game because it was perfect for arena style competitive Player versus Player combat, which is seriously lacking in the entire MMORPG genre, and therefore Guild Wars did it first, (just like how DAoC did RvR first and did it right) and Guild Wars did it right.

Now that you uneducated little children have some idea of the history of MMORPGs, I also need to inform you that before World of Warcraft, MMORPGs were an obscure genre of game that was progressing very VERY slowly. Grinding was not common, it was pretty much the only aspect to accomplishing anything in any MMORPG. Grinding is designed to keep you playing, which is perfect for the idea of an MMORPG.

The western and eastern views of grinding are very different. You will find grinding to be looked on with a lot of approval in eastern MMORPG gamers, because you will find that their culture regarding how, when, and where games are played is much different. It is extremely common to walk into an internet cafe and see several people with their laptops talking, enjoying some coffee, and grinding. This is fine because it let's the player enjoy social activity because what they are doing requires very little thought. It's not only a perfect way to make them continue playing, but also fits their style of play perfectly as well.

Western gamers on the other hand, we buy huge computers and sit at our desks to play games. You won't find any internet cafes in the west, and when you do you will find very poor internet connections in most places, certainly not enough to play online games, and even less so to do with any number of people. I don't speak for EVERYONE, but this is certainly true in most places.

Therefore western style games want to entertain us more, but as an MMORPG they cannot abandon the basics of MMORPGs as a genre. So grinding must keep your attention.

Now, whether you read all that I said or not, it doesn't matter. Because NONE of this applies to Final Fantasy XIV. The game completely ignores all of the progress made by earlier games of the genre, AND ignores the cultural differences between eastern and western games. The problems with FFXIV were solved long ago by other games.

The reason that FFXIV isn't acceptable in this day and age is directly related to WoW, and that is not open to debate.

You can't get away with "just grind" in MMORPGs anymore. WoW's design was a massive leap forward in the genre, but just like any MMO in the genre, it started out with a lot of grind. As the game has aged, it is so ridiculously polished and streamlined as an RPG it is a huge undertaking to get any NEW MMORPG up to WoW's standard.

Believe it or not, these games DO come out once in a while. The last MMO I've played that rivaled WoW's polish was Aion, but I did not play it at release. Though it was extremely grindy, it was very polished and a high quality game, if only missing the excellent design structure that would keep ALL players coming back, not just the hardcore determined few who liked getting ganked, grinding for hours on end only to die and lose experience, etc.

WoW is successful because it makes it's players come back for MANY MANY MANY reasons, not just the PvP, not just the story, not just the PvE.

Aion at this point is the only MMORPG I have played in the last 3 years that I could honestly quit WoW or FFXI for, if only it wasn't such a time sink to get any character to level 50, and then suddenly level 55 is released (around 350 hours per character, which is far more time than I would like to get to the "real game" that only exists at the level cap).

But whether you like Aion or not, the fact remains that it was released with dungeons, quests, content, even if those quests contained a lot of grinding, even if you didn't like the dungeons, even if the PvP was horrendously unbalanced, even if 350 hours is way too long to get a single character to max level, at least it was THERE.

FFXIV has no endgame content, which could be rationalized as no one will be able to see it, so why should it be there? The only reason that people cannot see the content is because of the absurd limitations put on leveling by Square Enix. A game that actually penalizes you for playing it. Which wouldn't be a big deal, except that you pay for this game monthly, and as an MMO it is designed to keep you playing, not penalize you for playing too much. That's ridiculous.

Next, I do believe it is unfair to compare any new MMO to WoW at this point, and it's pretty obvious why. But with or without WoW, FFXIV cannot compete with other MMOs with or without WoW. It's sad, but Fly for Fun has more content than FFXIV, and it's a free MMO for kids.

Now, as some of you may argue, the endgame will be released with time. There's various reasons that this is a completely stupid and idiotic idea that always fails and can't possibly succeed. I frankly find this infuriating and will tell you why:

1) I payed $60 for this game, not half the game, not a 1/4 of the game, I payed for the whole thing, and I have to continue to pay for the whole thing. Not getting what I payed for (or getting what was advertised) is not only absurd, it's a downright scam.

2) It's Square's job to make the game, not mine. By releasing a game that was pretty much in Alpha, and having people pay for it, WE are paying for the development of the game. Imagine it as if everyone gave Square Enix $50, they made a game with it, and now you have to pay them $13 a month for a game that you payed to make? That's absurd.

3) Why should I go through all of this when I can just play a game that I already know is great? No really, why? You will find that most players of MMOs try to structure their days in various was to play MMOs, and therefore do not look at boards like these because that structure 9/10 of the time doesn't involve looking for something they already have found. Entertainment.

4) I will never play this game again, as it's release was not just a matter of faith in a company who's games I have liked very much in the past (Star Ocean 3, Valkyrie Profile, FFX, KH, Dissidia, etc), I believe that for reasons stated in 2), this game is actually a complete scam. It's Square Enix's job to pay to develop the basic game, not mine.

And if you think that graphics is a good excuse AT ALL you are totally and completely wrong. The day that WoW was released, people immediately pointed out it's low polygon count. But because it was a FUN game that kept you playing (like a good MMORPG should) people just stopped caring about that. Style is proven to be more important than high polygon counts, and as Shigeru Miyamoto has said, "style is immortal, it cannot become outdated" when talking about LoZ: Skyward Sword. Tell me what looks better, Oblivion, or Shadow of the Colossus?

The issue of Final Fantasy XIV is not that it's a bad game, because whatever high or low standards you may have about a game is completely irrelevant. It's an MMORPG, and as an MMORPG, there is simply no reason to pay to play an Alpha, when you could pay to play successful, fun, extremely polished MMORPGs that are already on the market. FFXIV is even outdone by it's own predecessor, and that alone speaks volumes.

I do not dismiss that this game may become playable or enjoyable at some point, and I may even break my oath to not play it if it becomes a great game. This is a chance for the new producer to prove himself, and being able to convince SE to choose him to do this was probably no small task. But seeing the treatment of it's customers in the past, I will remain as "guilty until proven innocent" because...how can I not? Square Enix has treated it's playerbase of FFXI like complete garbage over the years, and once again, they have proven that they don't give a damn about what we say.

If you look around the net, you can actually find interviews where the designers of FFXIV said it was a fantastic game, and that the issues brought up by the western beta testers were "silly and irrelevant." These are the same issues that have caused not only the western players to all but abandon the game, but the same is true for the eastern players as well.

So, no. This game does NOTHING that any MMORPG, free or pay to play, hasn't done and certainly hasn't done better. It is not just a bad game, it is a huge step backwards for the entire genre, it's an embarrassment to the company, and it's release was a humiliating blow for the ENTIRE MMORPG genre that has struggled so hard to build itself over the last few years. Every developer in the history of MMORPGs should be insulted by this game, let alone the customers who were pretty much lied to and tricked into funding the creation of the vanilla game.

On the most basic level, even without a game, it's pretty much proven that Square Enix doesn't give a hoothoot about what it's customers think. It follows the trend business model, which is old and outdated. The personal and smaller roots of companies like Lynden Labs, CCP, and Blizzard has proven to be much more effective. I believe that the failure of Final Fantasy XIV is not just a matter of a game gone wrong, but the entire company's structure failed it.

I don't care what you say about this being a rant. This is a huge, complex issue, and deserves a huge, complex opinion. Your one line TL;DR responses are first grade trash and not worth my time. The fact that you even get to read a thought out response is more than a lot of the "noble" SquareEnix defenders deserve.
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By Lakshmi.Hypnotizd 2010-12-16 16:06:54
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I +1'd because it was really well thought out response that encompasses basically my entire issue with the game. However, the line "Now that you uneducated little children have some idea of the history of MMORPGs" makes the entire post feel a little condescending and high-and-mighty.
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By Unmei 2010-12-16 16:08:12
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OMG you convinced every one to quit...FF14 is over Jaerik come shut down the site...call SE tell them to close the servers because of Aziel's wall of text rant that most aren't going to read...lets all go play crappy lolWoWcata like him...please refund his 60 butthurt dollars. I feel so bad lets all put in a dollar and give it to Aziel. QQ QQ and QQ some more I hope you actually quit after this rant and we don't see you logged in to 14 nxt week lol. Hope WoW can give you everything 14 doesn't.

Asura.Aziel said:
This is a huge, complex issue, and deserves a huge, complex opinion.

No its not bro just quit uninstall stfu and don't buy any more SE products...problem solved.
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By 2010-12-16 16:19:33
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 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-12-16 18:03:42
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Here's the problem, Unmei:

That guy's opinion does matter because he's one less paying customer. Your game will go away unless SE has enough paying customers. It currently does not.

Unless you can convince a few hundred thousand more people to change their minds, you will have no game to play because they will shut it down. You can't just blow them off like that.
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By Sylph.Belmonth 2010-12-16 18:12:00
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Here's the problem, Unmei:

That guy's opinion does matter because he's one less paying customer. Your game will go away unless SE has enough paying customers. It currently does not.

Unless you can convince a few hundred thousand more people to change their minds, you will have no game to play because they will shut it down. You can't just blow them off like that.

Not to mention they reported a huge profit loss and were forced to delay Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and all media is pointing fingers at FFXIV.
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By Dubont 2010-12-16 18:16:01
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Here's the problem, Unmei:

That guy's opinion does matter because he's one less paying customer. Your game will go away unless SE has enough paying customers. It currently does not.

Unless you can convince a few hundred thousand more people to change their minds, you will have no game to play because they will shut it down, and the fact you like it will no longer matter. So you can't just blow them off like that.
True, but I honestly don't see this game turning around as far as subscriptions go. Out of the 32 people that I got to buy the game, 2 of them still play it. Out of those 30 that quit, 24 of them said that the 4.0 is well deserved and nothing SE can do will change their minds. In other words, those 24 people have already said *** it and are never coming back.

I personally love the game and I have complete faith that they will turn the game around to where it can at least get an 8/10. Even with SE fixing everything, if everyone ends up like those 24 people, it's all hopeless. Hell, a lot of the reviewers even refuse to re-review the game. It was a 4.0 on release, yes, but it should at least be a 5.5-6.0 right now, imo. If reviewers don't re-review the game, there is no hope for the game and even if they do, that 4.0 will continue to be a black mark on their record...
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By VadianRaine 2010-12-16 18:19:00
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advertising is a Huge problem for SE among others of course. I think Ive seen maybe 1 or 2 commercials about 14. Most ppl learn about it word of mouth / or if you've played mmorpg's b4. I think its getting better just not fast enough for some ppl. Im gonna give it a chance, sure they'll be pushing out new jobs soon to stir ppl up. still haven't felt that "Magic" from 11 yet :/
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By Lakshmi.Hypnotizd 2010-12-16 18:21:19
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VadianRaine said:
advertising is a Huge problem for SE among others of course. I think Ive seen maybe 1 or 2 commercials about 14. Most ppl learn about it word of mouth / or if you've played mmorpg's b4. I think its getting better just not fast enough for some ppl. Im gonna give it a chance, sure they'll be pushing out new jobs soon to stir ppl up. still haven't felt that "Magic" from 11 yet :/
I do believe there is a reason they haven't properly advertised it. I expect once they get the game up to everyones liking and release it for PS3 they will start their advertising campaigns.
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By Unmei 2010-12-16 18:24:10
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Here's the problem, Unmei: That guy's opinion does matter because he's one less paying customer. Your game will go away unless SE has enough paying customers. It currently does not. Unless you can convince a few hundred thousand more people to change their minds, you will have no game to play because they will shut it down, and the fact you like it will no longer matter. So you can't just blow them off like that.

No actually i can because the reality is people are going to quit or continue to play no matter what you ,Aziel, or I say. Point is if the game is not around by next summer you know what...something else will be out to play. Sad thing is there are people who are enjoying themselves reguardless of what state the game is in atm and we don't care about this bs he's spewing. You know who should care...SE he should send that wall of text to them and let us enjoy our Dec update. He sounds extremely butthurt and if he is having so much fun playing WoW he really shouldn't care. I'm sure he wasted more than $60 on much worste games in the past and will contunue in the future. My point is he is going so hard to try to convince people to quit like he's going to tell me i'm not having fun reguardless if I'm am. If you don't like it then don't play it more power to you but let the rest of us enjoy ourselves. I like this site but i'm just tired of logging on every day and seeing new threads with different titles about the same o'l butthurt ***over and over again by turds who try to make people who actually enjoy certain aspect of the game feel stupid just because they don't like the game. This is called a banwaggon effect and its just tired at this point...thats all i'm saying.
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By VadianRaine 2010-12-16 18:29:17
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true would seem like a cash sink at this point lol
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-12-16 18:29:39
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SE defense force is currently occupying the area.

Any negative feedback towards FF14 Will not be tolerated!

offenders will get a swift reply filled with nerd rage

!!!


The amount of stupid I read in this thread is insane.

I swear I wouldn't be surprised if these people had every single SE games and slept with a wada plush doll
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By Dubont 2010-12-16 18:33:47
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Ramuh.Thunderz said:
SE defense force is currently occupying the area.

Any negative feedback towards FF14 Will not be tolerated!

offenders will get a swift reply filled with nerd rage

!!!


The amount of stupid I read in this thread is insane.

I swear I wouldn't be surprised if these people had every single SE games and slept with a wada plush doll
*cough*
 
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By 2010-12-16 18:36:09
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By Unmei 2010-12-16 18:36:52
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Ramuh.Thunderz said:
SE defense force is currently occupying the area. Any negative feedback towards FF14 Will not be tolerated! offenders will get a swift reply filled with nerd rage !!! The amount of stupid I read in this thread is insane. I swear I wouldn't be surprised if these people had every single SE games and slept with a wada plush doll

Sad thing is I'm sure you were looking in the mirror with watery eyes when you wrote this...8D

Edit: I have to admit this ***was funny though every time I read it I lol'd.
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By VadianRaine 2010-12-16 18:45:09
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inb4 Thunderz post their ff cosplay pics XD
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