Caladbolg Vs Redemption

MNK+WHM, just like everything else.


DRK/MNK with WHM can too, but if you lose Counterstance to Roar, you're gonna get chewed up. MNK itself has perfect counter to fall back on.

Aint got mnk, and aint got whm.

My server is pretty bad as far as activity goes. Very few people actually do things, and the people that do still pld tank. And the last group i was in had a leader with a god complex that was possibly the dumbest person you could ever meet, and also thought that ffxiah ranking meant something significant. So i just duo stuff with my friend now, he only has smn and mnk.

I think without a whm, it might be more difficult, but if your friend's mnk has a decent MDT build to go with proper set of atma to eliminate AoE damage, it should still be doable. You just have less room for error.

And as a side note, I didn't upgrade GS cuz I thought it destroys scythe. I upgraded GS cuz I have always loved GS and it is easier anyway. But either way, I am not disappointed in torcleaver at all, but I have no problem pointing out that it doesn't perform well on harder mobs. And I will tell you that with proper setup, ground strike/spinning slash can be the better WS on harder mob with smithing blow and VV and moonshade earring (depends on how frequent you go in and WS assuming it is not ideal to tp on a mob. Groundstrike will need you to be at close to 175% tp to be effective). It just seems like you don't think under any circumstance that guillotine can be better than quietus even though "in theory" it should at least in high attack situation.

Inside abyssea i always have 999 attack. I have trouble getting guillotine to break 1.5k, with quietus regularly hitting 2.5k. I always used GS over scythe before empyrean because i liked spinning slash.

I have to say I can't explain why that is the case to be quite honest with you, other than that maybe you are just not capped on cratio even though you have high attack, or maybe the ignore defense surpasses the level correction function. There are always possibilities and I choose not to ignore them. Perhaps there will be more tests on the WS. In all honesty, before we found out about the ratio bonus of SS, GS, G/K/Y (me and a few others eventually tested them and found solid proof of the bonus which became what we know now), we always thought it was odd that WS with such low ftp can put up such high results. Maybe there is something about Quietus that we don't know, and I wish to find out so we can end this discussion.

Tho one thing, I was never one of the ppl who think capping ratio is easy. Ppl usually assume they are capped on ratio just because you hit the 999 mark but all it takes is a mob with 500 def to make you not capped. There is a reason G/K/Y were so popular, not because of the ratio bonus, but because how hard it is to cap ratio for other WSs. Now with abyssea, ppl even more so think they can cap ratio but I have this doubt that unless you are at like 1100-1300 attack, you are nowhere close to cap on anything meaningful unless the mob is dia ed. I happen to be in a LS that leader of the LS has redemption, so I will keep an eye on his WS damage more closely next time.

Can you with 100% certainty say the ftp on quietus is 3.00?

I used Returner's build that he had for torcleaver, lets say hume just neutrality. Kine uses mobs with a vit of 91 for his spreadsheets so lets use that as our target.

85str(base) + 7str(food)+ 6str(hasso) +60(ws gear) +5merits = 163
(163-91+4)/4 = 19fstr (still not capped)
82vit(base) + 49(gear+wep) = 126
149attack(45 coming from str from gear)

(floor(floor(126*.6))*.85) = 63wsc

(D+wsc+fstr)*ftp = ???
(120+ 66 + 19) *4.95** = 1014.75

As for quietus I used the same setup from returners but I swapped out body/ring/feet for grim/strigoi/af3+1 and still maintained a semi even attack with torcleaver's setup.

85str + 7 +6 +74(gear) +5 +10(wep) = 187
(177-91+4)/4 = 23fstr(capped)
72mnd + 19(gear)+10(wep)= 101
+168(55 coming from str in gear)attack in gear
(floor(floor((187*.4)+(101*.4))) *.85) = 96wsc

(136+96+23)* ??? =
now going with what returner said about it being 3.0ftp that would make it 816. If so that explains why it does lower than torcleaver does. Seems to be even if not slightly better at around 3.8ftp so as I said it has to be higher than 3.6 to be better, but safer to say 3.8+.

I did not include pdif as I said I kept it relatively close on attack so both should be increased by the same amount. Although if someone wanted to continue and see how much the 10% favors quietus it be nice to see. Im just curious as to where the 10% is applied to, before or after debuffs or additive to debuffs etc.

If anyone would like to make corrections do so, it was just a quick look at both ws setups, obviously not going into exact detail but enough to see what we have to work with with what we have. If its really 3.0 thats not going to be favorable for quietus, but a better hit build might over come that.


**+.2ftp with gorget/belt

2.5k is a lot more believable, and while still on the high end, reasonable with the new gear additions, and with the large DMG difference in Scythe to Greatsword.

Even on Harder Mobs, I still use Torcleaver just for the aftermath, which easily makes up the damage difference. Just thought I'd point that out, if considering using Spinning Slash or Ground Strike.

If you don't mind me asking, 1.5k guillotine on which enemies? exp VT mobs, NMs etc.

Mostly exp mobs, some NMs. I never really liked guillotine so i havent tried it much on NMs while i have quietus.

Love the inventory full of WOE coins Zicdeh. Are your gear sets up to date on Caladbolg? How do you like them? I have not min/maxed calad yet, working on other peoples emperians in my free time.

I think so, I'm working on Ares Hands/Body right now to upgrade, especially with the future prospect of additional upgrades to salvage armors in the near-ish future. I was actually a ~little~ disappointed in Calad at first, but after having some time with it against other Empyreans outside Abyssea, my resolve is strengthened. While it's incredibly powerful on it's own merits, it's just hard to see that in the shadow of Razed Ruins Victory Smite, Ukko's Fury, Blade: Hi, Jishnu's Radiance and Chant du Cygne.

Taking targets with no specific resistance (Like Isgebind has) Torcleaver is Min-Max 850-5900. Min being on things with absurd defense like Hejejet (Spelling?) and Max being a Triple attack with Arcane Circle up on a detector, all at 100TP (+25 for Moonshade).

On XP class mobs, there seem to be two prominent ranges of Damage. 1800-2,200 and 3200-3500. Both with only single-strike, likely do to not having enough attack.

Quietus has two modifiers, probably lower than the other emps of 60%. I'd bet that this is why it's DMG is lower when compared to Caladbolg.

Technically, Quietus has a higher modifier. It has STR and MND at 40% which would be 80% combined. Torcleaver only has the one VIT mod at 60%.

That may seem a negligable difference, until you consider equipment like Twilight Helm and Mail, which offer considerable bonuses to both STR and MND for Quietus. That's why I say, in the future, quietus may beat Torcleaver. Today is not that day though.

I actually enjoy playing with Calad when given the chance, it sadly seems very comparable to Apoc if not better. I just don't have the chance as I no longer have a perma-LS and everything is done with my mnk / whm dual box.

I kind of have that issue too, but the MNK-WHM dualbot/box method has the upside of never really "Needing" additional help. So I make myself available to help kill ***faster with Caladbolg. You'd be surprised how willing a MNK is to team up with a lolDRK just for the chance to see a Victory Smite-Light for 12k.

Alright, since we had the Last Resort+Souleater update plus trait fixes from the update (Crit Hit Rate/Crit Hit Damage etc.), where do these two stand this time around?

I haven't caught up to speed with the standings of these two since then, but I just want to be sure. I've heard things about Redemption winning out on DoT on a 5-Hit build, but Caldbolg will often give the higher WS numbers whilst doing a 6-hit. Does this sound about right or am I a little uninformed?

I don't think Redemption has a place in Abyssea tbh. Attack is through the roof, especially with the free availability of Stalwart's Drinks. Accuracy isn't a huge concern either. Best case, might be comparable on a high-defense Heroes-era NM.

Outside Abyssea, Caladbolg would continue to trash Redemption on fodder and low-tier NMs. Higher level NMs with high defense/evasion may close the gap though, primarily due to Redemption's gear flexibility (less STP required for 6-hit vs Caladbolg's 7-hit) and inherently higher accuracy (higher base skill).

This is about right outside of Abyssea, but it's more more or less a dead heat with Caladbolg pulling a few percent ahead when attack caps.

Most of this was already covered in the thread:

Quietus' attack bonus only starts at 10%, but it does matter when it comes into play. Quietus also gets lowballed because people compare fTP without considering STR+MND vs VIT mods and a higher base damage. Redemption also still swings an alternative 4-hit WS when Souleater is up, which it should be with the advent of Stalwart Soul.

So there's other considerations to make after the LR duration buff and Stalwart Soul. A Caladbolg should probably be 5/5 LR Effect, while a Redemption should be 5/5 Souleater Recast (both 5/5 LR recast, natch).

tl;dr You would still have to parse the difference between Caladbolg and Redemption outside of Abyssea with people who are geared and merited correctly. BNS is still a huge problem.

Parses are easily skewed by play style / randomness / etc. and should only be used to make self improvements or if you need to justify touching yourself when you "beat" someone.

What does the math look like between the two outside of abyssea?

That's what I was talking about. Either can take the lead just on luck or playstyle or merits. On paper Caladbolg is a few percent ahead. You would have to do an exhaustive parse to really call it either way because Redemption still has a lot of situational factors in it's favor that can't be adequately napkin-math'd, like how fast you get healed after a Souleater Guillotine and whatnot.

What you're asking here is which weapon gives you the best opportunity to touch yourself when you "beat" someone. That answer tends to be Caladbolg but it's a performance difference you'd only see in a parse. Between these two weapons it will never be 100% one way or the other, which is good.

Just consider: It takes that much of a crazy broken WS, Torcleaver, just to make GS surpass Scythe by a small amount.

Cept Caladbolg benefits more from ODD than scythe. And Quietus is pretty awful in just about all situations compared to Torcleaver.

Scythe had its reign, but scythes are dead. Get over it.

By what math? 40% more TP phase damage is 40% more TP phase damage, and in practice they're equal in said category. This statement is misguided even if you wanted to go as far as WS saturation.

Thanks for your opinion though.

I don't know what your said obsession with Redemption is, but it doesn't compare to Caladbolg. I am currently building one just to have it. Quietus doesnt suddenly become an Amazing weaponskill because you want it to be, things just don't work like that.

Also more swings = More benefit from ODD, which means stronger DoT.

Caladbolg and Redemption also build TP at the same speed, Caladbolg is hitting that 100 TP with an extra swing and a stronger Weaponskill. The only way Redemption will beat caladbolg is if you are not being properly buffed, in a scenario where you are being buffed properly Caladbolg literally stomps a muddhole into Redemption.

Just thought I'd share this...

Gradd said everything before me =( I missed the idiot's response.

Yes Gradd, we've been over this already. My contention is with exactly this statement:
Allow me to clear this fallacy with a purely hypothetical quandary.

Weapon X swings 50 times for 2 damage each.
Weapon Y swings 100 times for 1 damage each.

Weapon X: 100 damage
Weapon Y: 100 damage

So both weapons do 100 damage in the same amount of time. With me so far?

Now add that each of these weapons deals double damage 50% of the time.

Weapon X now swings 25 times for 4 damage and 25 times for 2 damage.
Weapon Y now swings 50 times for 2 damage and 50 times for 1 damage.

Weapon X: 150 damage
Weapon Y: 150 damage

Gee, isn't that interesting. Apply the same effect to both weapons and you get the same effect.

Please commence your usual ad hominem bullsh*t!

Jesus you're stupid.

Aside from the claim that Caladbolg and Redemption have comparable TP:WS splits, which I am skeptical of but don't have numbers at hand for, I don't see anything particularly wrong with Raelia's claims. I don't think I've ever had Caladbolg come out more than 10% ahead in a realistic situation, barring a model for something like old Dynamis mobs or old/low-level Abyssea fodder where you'll cap pDIF in TP gear with LR down. That was minus a few considerations I haven't attempted to model yet though, things like cure rate while using Souleater and using Guillotine with Redemption during Souleater. Like I said previously, even in my limited models they've been close in some situations and while Redemption is generally behind it's not by as much as forum commentary would have you believe.

Raelia is about as dumb as they come, and why I avoid the official forums.

Crawl back into your official forum cave and stay there please.

I tried not insulting you for once, but yes you are *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.

Let me make it more Clear.

It takes Caladbolg 7 swings to get to 100% TP, 6-hits after you are rebuilding. Meaning you have 6-7 Hits of ODD.

Redemption will build to 100% TP at 6 Swings, 5-hit Rebuild, so you have 5-6 hits of ODD. Following? 6 is greater than 5, and 7 is greater than 6, YOU HAVE 1 MORE EXTRA SWING OF ODD MEANING YOU ARE BENEFITING MORE FROM IT.

Holy ***Raelia you are the biggest head ache I have ever come across.

Also according to Damage Calcluator spread sheet, a 7-hit Caladbolg will beat an 6-hit, same goes for a 6-hit Redemption it actually beats the 5-hit. The lower x-hit builds arent as amazing as people think, WARs have started using 6-hits instead of 5-hits, along with SAMs as well. It comes down to your giving up way too much gear for that faster x-hit to be doing anything for you. It was like a 3% difference in favor of the stronger TP build vs the lower x-hit.

Plus inside abyssea the majority of time you have a TP overflow making that lower x-hit build with crappier gear not worth it because your going overboard on TP gain.

@ Night. Even if they are close, what he is saying is wrong. Hypothetical situations that compare tp:ws splits to be exactly the same and ODD benefiting both the same is HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. He's also bending all his claims to put it as "Caladbolg on paper is better, but Redemption is actually the best.", which is incorrect as well. Not saying Redemption is horrible, but inferior weapon is still inferior. He can't seem to grasp that concept either.

Also what Gradd said above.