Hagun...

ok someone clarify this for me.... What is it exactly that has dethroned Hagun? All i ever heard about it before the update was "Hagun is the best no matter what, because of the TP bonus!" So what is it now? What is the new magic stat you elietests are swearing by? Are we dropping the beloved 100% tp bonus for a 5 hit build now?


INB4

Eh.. sorry baddish mood so i went a little overboard. That being said, i would like to know, as i have searched the forums and haven't found a very definite answer (maybe i missed it). Looked up the gk's and found pretty good ones, but still not sure on what everyone is hyped up about. Not stupid... maybe a bit lazy, but then again, i don't play video games to do math problems. I hate math.

Aparently according to another thread Soboro always beats hagun. yup. Even the hagun bandwagon ppl agree on it in that thread.

Even though they all had OMGMATH to prove hagun > all, a year ago, its always secretly been soboro > all, all this time.

HMMM. it's just confusing, but that sorta makes sense. There ARE new GK that do multiple hits, and have higher damage than soboro by far. So it is now and always has been more WS > Higher WS damage... That is what i never got about hagun v soboro...

I still use Hagun :( Soboro is better in places like Dynamis where you're melee 24/7 just because of the higher WS frequency.

I do believe the actual answer to your question is the Keitonotachi and those TOTM katana's that are 5hit able, but would require Usukane Body (which I don't have) and patience to complete the trials.

Hagun is just fine if you ask me!

Hagun base DMG is not going up and new GK have higher DMG as well as different perks(such as more atk str 5-hit multi hits etc).

the newer higher base DMG give more dmg when TPing. Going from a 75 base dmg to a 90+ is quite a boost lol.

Then you have ws the main gravy for SAM, while hagun is still strong at this, the higher base dmg from new GKs are closing the gap quickly.

These two benefits from the new GKs really just make hagun another GK that should not be an ends all be all GK

I do not enjoy math either, however it makes logical sense if you just look at the practical applications. Remember onimaru was behind hagun, and the difference was never THAT big

no, it's been that soboro>hagun on merit level mobs and below, but that a decent polearm build would beat both

so hagun beat soboro at the only place a sam should have been using a gk in the first place, hnm

This^

That's exactly what I said in the the thread linked above.

The maths that showed Soboro > hagun was epically flawed (not accounting for TP overflow), and as it is an irrelevant argument these days no one bothered to redo old maths.

As I don't have too much time to play as of late I'm still working on my trial gks, but I'm putting my money on 5 hitting this .
Just need 29stp from gear which isn't too hard to obtain even without usukane just a lil expensive is all.

a lil test i ran in limbo because i saw the other 2 using different GKs

parse i ran in limbus Temenos - West Tower

#1(Hume)- Kurodachi dmg68 OAT
#2(Mithra)- Keito dmg91 sTP+5
#3(Elvaan)- Hagun

Linky to Wiki/SAM

Use Askar or Domaru like I do, 5hit is sex

As mentioned above, any time you're engaged on a monster fulltime (Dynamis, Einherjar and meriting are prime examples), that's where Soboro Sukehiro pulls ahead due to Hagun's large reliance factor when it comes to Meditate.

In other words: With every second that's passed that you're disengaged, Hagun only grows stronger as Meditate's recast comes closer to being back up, simply due to the fact that it's the strongest weapon skill-specific weapon, while straight melee hits are its' weak point.

The people that stand by the Soboro Sukehiro adamantly are commonly the people that don't know what an Engetsuto, Tomoe or Leviathan's Couse is, and they most likely don't have it merited either ontop of that.

I tried living by the Soboro theory for like a week (see: using it even on HNM, hurdur), and the thing went immediately back into storage after I was definite that it was a piece of trash still, aside from Yoichinoyumi users of course.

Seeing how it's highly unlikely that Hagun'll ever be introduced to Trial of Magians though, eventually, sadly, the trial weapons will definitely beat it, but for now, even at eighty, I still personally view it as the strongest weapon available by far, bar relic of course.

And at eighty, it's only impressed me even more, to be blunt. Here's some pretty numbers that I got in Xarcabard the other day, as an example (caution: xbox hueg pictures).


tl;dr:
Engaged Fulltime (parsing events): Polearm >>> Soboro Sukehiro > Hagun
Engaged Partially (HNM/harder stuff): Hagun >>> Soboro Sukehiro > Polearm

Sorry, but I know that you are well enough informed to know that Hagun is can be beaten by both the OAT (5hit) and Masamune.

Yeah, because Masamune is openly available to everyone, right.

Kokushitsunotachi's in the same boat as Soboro Sukehiro, on that note.

I am doing the +6 str +20 attack 89 damage 437 delay gtk (5 hit with eisen grip)

And the +10% kasha gtk 464 delay (5 hit with eisen grip)

Better than hagun???

Lol @ the idea that Soboro is a valid endgame great katana.
The only time that weapon should even be considered is on squishy mobs that check VT or less, or if you can stay engaged to the mob full-time AND the mob lacks even modestly debilitating TP moves.
Feeding a mob TP with a Soboro is detrimental to whatever you're doing in 90% (roughly) of situations.

Back to the OP:
Hagun is undoubtedly still a great choice for your normal SAM melee weapon ... for now. It will also remain the best choice whenever you're turned away or disengaged from the target, relying on Meditate before running in for a quick WeaponSkill. Anyone who uses SAM outside of EXP'ing/Dynamis/Limbus knows this is a very common tactic for SAM when fighting NMs with a group.
When we start seeing Great Katanas that have 105 base damage ratings (which we probably will, sometime this year), then Hagun might finally be replaced.

That said, there's several alternatives to Hagun that are in the same ballpark now, for general usage. Being able to use a higher delay/higher damage rating Great Katana to produce a 5-hit build (that doesn't completely sacrifice Accuracy and Haste) will keep pace or even outperform Hagun 6-hit builds. Using the 5-hit build also gives your party an advantage, since you collect 100% TP in 5 hits, while only feeding your target 5 hits worth of mob TP, instead of 6 hits worth of mob TP.

These two are relatively simple to obtain:



These three are also relatively simple to obtain, and offer some significant added effects that will benefit your party/alliance's efforts:




These two would require much more time investment to complete, but you could easily argue it's worth it, especially if future level cap updates include additional Trials to upgrade them even further:




Having said all that, I see no reason why Hagun should not be still considered a valid and useful endgame SAM weapon, at least for now.

Too bad the tp a mob gets is directly proportional to the tp players get: When hit by a melee attack, enemies gain the attacker's Base TP + 3. So if you get 20 tp a hit they get 23 if you get 17 they get 20. Either way you don't lower their tp gain. Please stop giving people advice you are clueless on just about everything and your forum pic is annoying.

Are people seriously doubting the power of soboro! I laugh at you while I occasionally attack 2-3 times. This is against merit level mobs. *lolibri t1,wave 1 t2ish einherjar mobs, dyna*

Melee
Hagun: 75dmg/450delay
w/ 7%DA, 91.0%acc, zanshin adjusted=94.85%
hits in 100 rounds =7x2(DA)*.91+84.63(hit SA)+8.37(miss)*.45(Zanshin)*.95(acc2)= 100.95 hits
dmg= 100.95*(75+12)= 8782.65 "dmg"


Soboro: OA2-3 40dmg/450delay
avg #hits (2%DA, 93.5%acc, zanshin adjusted= 96.28%)soboro=
miss= 1.31490315, SA= 33.92033205, zanshin= .8169525, DA= 47.92676295, TA= 16.02104735
hits in 100 rounds = 178.6539525 hits
hits in 100 rounds soboro= 178.6539525*(40+12)= 9290.01 "dmg"

WS

Hagun: 75dmg/450delay
dmg= (75+16+94) = 185
tp: 0= 4.848525, 1x= 85.7766, 2x= 9.374875
avg rounds/WS= 4.8706
avg TP: 102.62
avg fTP: 1.9914
WS dmg= .93*185*1.9915 + .07&(185*1.9915+185) = 381.3775
WS freq= 63.11/4.8706 + 1.4 = 14.3573
dmg= 381.3775*14.3573 = 5475.5512


Soboro: OA2-3 40dmg/450delay
dmg= (40+12+94) = 146
tp: 0= 1.31490315, 1x= 33.92033205, 2x= 48.74371545, 3x= 16.02104735
avg rounds/WS= 3.0823
avg TP: 111.05
avg fTP: 1.6970
WS dmg= .93*146*1.6970 + .07*(146*1.6970+146)= 259.749
WS freq= 63.11/3.0823 +1.4 = 21.8750
dmg= 259.749*21.8750= 5616.3844

Hagun: (8782.65/8782.65)*35 + (5475.5512/5475.5512)*65 = 100.00
Soboro: (9290.10/8782.65)*35 + (5616.3844/5475.5512)*65 = 103.69

And as people said anytime soboro beats hagun pole decimates soboro. lern2read

Hmmm ... let's see: 23 X 5 = 115
and
20 X 6 = 120

a modest decrease in the amount of enemy TP gained? yes.
Is it still an advantage? yes.

Get off my case. And if you don't like my picture, take it up with Spicyryan.

Yes its modest and mostly moot but you listed it as an advantage when in fact its a disadvantage.

Of course Polearm beats Hagun on everything a soboro beats a hagun on *Not counting HNM's* But that statement stood out to me....cause its wrong.

OP missed out on this INB4:

The way the TP bonus enhanced damage was impossible to beat, pre80 update. However, the trade off with all the Martial (TP Bonus) weapons is that their base DMG is below-standard for the level. With a weapon like Hagun, it's actually quite behind level 75 weapons. It's just that the TP bonus made up for it on Gekko. This made individual hits very low-damage, compared to other weapons. It's just that, again, that TP bonus made your weapon skills huge to compensate.

Magian weapons make even higher DMG weapons available now, so while you may not have Gekkos that are quite as high, you're finally hitting harder on melee swings like the big boys to make up for it. So now, depending on situation, you'll do more damage over time by using a magian weapon than you would have with an Onimaru.

Also, earlier poster compared Soboro/Hagun/Polearm via parse. Assuming gear equality, you also have to remember player effort. A lazy player rocking white-boxes and Usukane while being lazy can be out-parsed by a lower geared SAM who's paying attention and busting their *** to get the job done.

!!!! HOW DID I MISS THAT!?

thanks guys lol. it's pretty much as i expected. I'll keep my hagun for now, and wait to see what SE has in store for the GK in the next updates.

Didn't say they were easy to get.

Just they are better.

I remember you posting BG the day you got you Cerb+1 and saying how much time/money it took and now you are here ignoring ToTM weapons from your list because they are hard to get...

who gives a ***?
this whole discussion is moot with the next update installment coming soon lol.
*does a whole bunch of math to find out if the new totm weapons are better than hagun*
*scars of abyssea comes out*
****ton of new weapon upgrades*
*fuuuuuuuck, does more math*
that's exactly what will happen.