BREXIT Just Happened...

I miss Miliband.

What a speech by Nigel. The sound bites had me rolling.

Love him or hate him, you can't deny his entertainment value. lol.

Free movement is granted to EU nationals

Once a refugee is granted a visa they must reside within their host country unless they apply for permission for a specific purpose (work, study, and vacation in some instances) to visit another member country. They are treated as any other third country national outside their host country.
Examples individual country asylum process:
Denmark
Germany
UK

Before a refugee receives a visa they can travel in an "irregular pattern" through many countries (within and outside the EU) based on the ECHR (European court of human rights)

I miss Churchill. Disraeli too for that mater.

Bloomberg interview with Greenspan about Euro - gets interesting at 4th minute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec9i_iGCj80

"You're not laughing now" by Farage responded to by shouts of "traitor" and boos in EU Parl.

I think no matter what this has created (or illustrated) divisions within the UK that is going to take years if not decades to mend.

Both sides will hold significant grudges if article 50 is triggered or not, which will not stop the uncertainty that the UK is currently undergoing.



I read these statements as when article 50 is triggered there is no remedy to take this back. So, if they leave, then they leave and if they want to come back in they will have to undergo the same process as new members.

To me that is an acceptable stance, especially in the face of the sheer amount of uncertainty the UK has laid at their doorstep.

Untangling the UK from the EU is a huge undertaking. This is going to require new legislation from all member countries beyond the EU level if the UK only ends up negotiating for third country member status, if they only want to trade under WTO rules.

When the EU politicians keep stating that the UK cannot keep the EU in a state of uncertainty, I can completely understand that. There are many, many issues that will need to be addressed that cannot be until the UK gives a formal declaration.

At the same time I understand that the UK needs to get their house in order before making any decisions that cannot be unmade. With two parties undergoing change in leadership and potentially new parties set to make bids, with Scotland and Northern Ireland unamused at the result, there is a lot of uncertainty as to who will even be leading and negotiating the the UK exit (or, like many have theorized who will be leading if the UK doesn't exit).

All around this is a huge event that has ripple effects and consequences that are completely unknown. It has also illustrated -to me- why an integrated European plan was developed in the first place.

The guy got absolutely destroyed at the last general election but he and the Blairites have the gall to criticise Corbyn's leadership.

Will be interesting what happens when the Chilcot report is published next week.

I've been doing a lot of reading and watching old Farange addresses and videos - in 2008 he warned that the way the European Union was pushing forward with undemocratic policies would lead to a dangerous rise in nationalism in Europe.

He wasn't wrong and it might come to the surprise of many that he wasn't for nationlists coming to power, on the contrary he feared it and its repercussions.

I think we should not be so fast to paint everyone with broad brushstrokes and lump him together with the likes of Marine Le Pen.

This will be the case, undoubtly, but I was asked of what I think and would prefer, and I want what I wrote.
It's okay to be selfish in an opinion.

I had a different impression when Juncker and Tusk were shown on TV, speaking very emotional, in the morning of Brexit. To me it felt like: 'You voted out, now trigger out!'. Leaving the press directly after the words 'out is out' doesn't help for a soft interpretation.
Schulz was the only voice I heard that, while still very pushy with his 'solving this by Tuesday!' demand, said that the brittish people could still decide and declare not to trigger article 50 despite of the referendum.
That impression got stronger after Merkel changed her waiting in patience position from day one to a 'I can't think of any way for the UK to stay' stance, after phone talks with EU-heads and the leader of France and Italy on day two.

I would be okay with the words if they meant what you think they meant.

As for the rest what you wrote, I know that, and those things are the reasons why I hope for a situation (like the one I described) that allows them to remain.

Just heard:
Johnson won't candidate,
The candidate May still wants Brexit despite being in the campaign for Bremain.

So one hope is down.

And people say they can't see how this is so similar to people voting for Trump.

Ugh.

How dare you make disparaging remarks about Trump in the wrong thread !

Because it's applicable!

Why is nationalism considered a four letter word?

Probably because by and large, in the modern era, it results in little positive payout, and is largely used as a tool of division by leaders to drive people apart.

Excuse me, but what does this mean?

He's asking "why is nationalism such a bad thing/why does it have such a terrible reputation these days?"

Because it stands in the way of a socialist revolution. Patriotism was one of the primary reasons cited for there failing to be the world wide socialist revolution that Marx predicted would happen. Citizens identified more with their countries then they did with their socioeconomic class and thus the proletariat didn't band together to overthrow the bourgeois.

Patriotism was considered a really positive thing until a certain period of time, look at what started happening then to see where the current "all your countries suck, join our worldwide multiculturalist movement". The love of ones country, people and culture is never a bad thing.

No, it isn't.

But doing so to the point where you hate others is a terrible thing. And that's the thing about it.

Much like "feminism," the term no longer means what it should mean and instead stands for extreme viewpoints that will not listen to reason.

Not to go on a tangent but I never liked the work feminism, feminist et al, it seems to focussed on women, obviously that's not what it stands for but ask any random person what feminism stands for, I wonder how many would suggest it's about equality for women.

Hmm well a quick bit of research by me seems to suggest feminism is primarily promotion equality for women, now granted women are less equal than men but there are some areas where women have an advantage.

I should really stop I'm going very off topic.

One way or another, the term has been hijacked to refer to very radical, unreasonable women (in b4 a "that's all of them" joke).

Much like nationalism/patriotism -- while not bad things on the surface -- have really become terms to describe some rather unreasonable people.

Yeah but wanting a functioning border wall and more controls of immigration are not unreasonable things, nor are they wanted by unreasonable people.

Nationalism ans socialism are neither contradictory nor mutually opposed.

In case you have forgotten all of the most socialistic European countries have strong nationalistic movements.

So sorry you can only view the world through one outdated lens.

I can open my own fricking doors. I can fix my own fricking motorcycles.

Hey Mr fish, do you need this bicycle?

Well the "wall" thing has always seemed more symbolic to me than literal. Fences seem less expensive to maintain and are equally as effective in this fashion, if we're going to think very -- pun not intended -- concretely.

That said, I agree with you. But that's really only loosely tied to "nationalism." What's being derided are things like what I posted a few pages ago. The "go home Polish vermin" thing. Yes, that's a minority view (at least, I hope?). But that's the nastier side of nationalism that rears its head in situations like this. There's patriotism and national pride -- which are great, vital things -- and there's arrogance, conceit, and disdain. Unfortunately, for some it's a package deal and they can be a very vocal, very visible subset.