California Debates 'yes Means Yes' Sex Assault Law

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California debates 'yes means yes' sex assault law
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 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-08-11 01:31:08
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Only in California would "yes means no"...after the fact.


The attention *** out here have a habit of declaring "Rape" when a relationship doesn't go the way they want, either that or they just want a legal reason to blame all their personality failures on.

My only real trouble with the law, outside of how sad it is that the country even needs to have a debate about what exactly is "Consensual"Sex (state only? I expect all blue states to adopt this at one point, maybe not the whole country) is the problem with all these "Victim" laws in absolving the victim completely of responsibility.

The easiest argument I can point out is the whole drunk sex argument. In instances of nonaggressive (Mistake) sex, where one(or more) parties regrets the act and goes full professional victim mode. The fact is that an adult is responsible for their actions, and if they decide to get shitfaced, they accept the risks involved. That's not to say it's Victim-blame-game time, there needs to be a rapist for a rape, and one can never eliminate all risk but if you foster a society where people aren't responsible for their actions and managing their risk, we'll all wind up with a nanny state, like California already is.

I expect in my lifetime that having an erection in public will be a felony even if obscured by clothing, if we continue on the whole feminist+professional victim train. The ridiculously black/white nature of the "Sex Crime" category is almost as stupid as the War on Drugs.

TL;DR - Learn what Risk Management is and play the victim card less.
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By Fumiku 2014-08-11 01:34:21
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5% range, there seems to be a lot of animosity focused on the relatively rare instance. We had a case locally about 10 years ago where a girl accused 4 or 5 members of a local high school sports team of raping her. When one of the accused furnished a tape of the encounter that had her obviously consenting and enjoying herself, it was obviously dropped. I have no idea if she faced any charges for lying, etc.

I agree it happens, obviously, but we seem to jump to blaming the victims way too fast in almost every situation. I have no real opinion on the law, but I agree that what constitutes consent needs to be better defined, there are a lot of young people praying on their peers.

Huh? This sounds very republican.:P It's only five percent of the people so F em'!
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 01:36:23
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oldman said: »
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
I'm sure that's exactly what you'd tell your daughter after she'd been raped
I would teach my daughter to never put herself in that situation.
Funny, cause, kids don't always do what they're told. Especially in college.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 01:42:17
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
oldman said: »
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
I'm sure that's exactly what you'd tell your daughter after she'd been raped
I would teach my daughter to never put herself in that situation.
Funny, cause, kids don't always do what their told. Especially in college.
So we should coddle them when they reap the rewards of doing stupid crap because they're college kids? I would teach my son that rape is bad, should I let that one go too when he disobeys?
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 01:51:16
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Something about teaching women not to get black out drunk and teaching men not to rape women seems like a false equivalent.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 01:54:00
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What other violent crimes take into account the victim's "responsibility"?
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 01:55:11
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He was being too gay in public. He was asking to get smeared.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 02:00:19
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
What other violent crimes take into account the victim's "responsibility"?

Probably more than you'd think. I don't have a background in law, but I can think of examples with manslaughter and the like where it may come into consideration.
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-08-11 02:05:42
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Haha this is gonna go all kinds of sideways. The comments also confirms that most of the posters here do not get laid very often.

Guys, women don't give "affirmative yes" and instead use body language and sub-communication. It's not a defined moment of "go/no-no" but a series of escalations with the guy expected to be the one who initiates the escalation. The end result is both of you in bed kissing and getting your freak on. At no point is she going to say "yes I agree to have consensual sex with you", and if you stop the escalation and say "do you agree to have consensual sex with me", well that just destroys the entire mood and she'll probably put her clothes on and leave.

As for false rape accusations, that happens a f*ck ton more then 5%. The police don't keep track of those, and instead they are all lumped into the "failed to prosecute due to lack of evidence" category. "Rapes" are skyrocketing at universities because of the progressive tendency to ignore human nature when creating rules. Most are just post-coitus-rapes, when the women decides the next day that she really didn't want to sleep with you and therefor you must of raped her. Yes that's the logic used, absolute zero responsibility is assumed by the female. She'll flat out lie and say she "can't really remember" and "it was kinda fuzzy", even if you have video of her screaming and moaning while encouraging you to go harder / deeper.

As for this law, I would expect a metric sh!t ton of rape accusations soon because the lack of affirmative consent will make every sexual encounter a "rape". If your a guy living in CA, I'd highly recommend installing a hidden video system in your home, just to protect yourself. Cause it only takes one accusation of rape to get put on the sex offender registry, and once on it's virtually impossible to get taken off. Also never talk to any police about anything that remotely resembles an encounter you had with a girl, always immediately lawyer up.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 02:25:28
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Fumiku said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5%

You completely ignored the linked study provided by one of the other posters that put it at 41%.
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 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-08-11 02:27:13
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Something about teaching women not to get black out drunk and teaching men not to rape women seems like a false equivalent.


Is it too much to believe that nobody should do either?

Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
What other violent crimes take into account the victim's "responsibility"?

A lot more than you'd expect. Assault and Murder can have mitigating factors that include stupid behavior on account of the victim, and in some cases completely absolve the accused of the crime. But personally I draw a distinction between aggressive rape and non-aggressive "Rape" which is the kind this law is aimed at clarifying and basically just saying consensual sex can become rape in hindsight because of poor life choices.


This is also ignoring the great potential for abuse of the system by the aforementioned "professional victims" which seem to be on the upsurge (Read: Millenials) though I'm not suggesting it's a common occurrence, just a commonly reported occurrence.

Cerberus.Tikal said: »
He was being too gay in public. He was asking to get smeared.


Again, I'm hoping people can manage to separate aggressive acts with miscommunication.

If a woman (or man, rape does go both ways) gets black out drunk and is raped while passed out, never having had any input before the act that's all shades of wrong and deserves due justice towards the victim.

We're social animals, and I think outside the most introverted person, we all crave some manner of attention. That natural instinct can quickly spiral into mixed messages, especially when alcohol or drugs (Especially MDMA) are thrown in to the mix.

I guess what I'm mostly saying is, Teenagers and college students make stupid mistakes all the time, learn from a mistake instead of letting one define the rest of your life. (inb4 kids) That's all this law is going to do.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 02:34:31
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oldman said: »
Fumiku said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5%

You completely ignored the linked study provided by one of the other posters that put it at 41%.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21164210

Don't glom onto a single study just because it agrees with what you think. There's also more to studies than their abstracts.
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-08-11 02:36:01
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oldman said: »
Fumiku said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5%

You completely ignored the linked study provided by one of the other posters that put it at 41%.

Yep, it's pretty f*cking huge. It basically boils down to women in progressive countries being taught that they are never responsible for the outcomes of their decisions and thus should never face any consequences. Girl goes to club / bar / house party has a few drinks (is not black out drunk) and meets an attractive (to her at that time) guy and gives him the nonverbal attraction cues. Guy lays on some game and he maneuvers her back to his / her place. Guy escalates into touching, kissing and eventually clothes start being taken off and they have sex. The next morning she wakes up, feels hung over and realizes that she just "did it again" and slept with some random dude she just met. She looks at him and realizes he's not as attractive as she thought he was.

Now in non-progressive/feminist countries the reaction to the scenario is the girl accepting she made a bad choice and dealing with the social consequences (her girlfriends talking about how she slept with a random guy / other girls labeling her a ***) and moving on. In progressive/feminist countries the reaction to that same scenario is "he raped you" in order to avoid the social consequences while simultaneously generating a ton of social approval for being a "rape survivor". Otherwise known as "playing the victim card". It's even worse if she was married and is now trying to keep her walking ATM from divorcing her.
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 Phoenix.Xantavia
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By Phoenix.Xantavia 2014-08-11 02:45:07
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
What other violent crimes take into account the victim's "responsibility"?
There have been a few articles in our local paper about somebody going out to buy drugs and catching a bullet when they are in the wrong place. I get tired of hearing about how they were an innocent victim, when the truth is they put themselves in a dangerous situation.
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-08-11 02:54:20
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Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
What other violent crimes take into account the victim's "responsibility"?
There have been a few articles in our local paper about somebody going out to buy drugs and catching a bullet when they are in the wrong place. I get tired of hearing about how they were an innocent victim, when the truth is they put themselves in a dangerous situation.
Technically speaking, he could have put himself into a dangerous position just being on that same street, regardless of the interaction. Buying drugs is just stupid in general, and all sorts of ***can happen.

People get clipped by stray bullets, hit by cars etc. just as easily going about their daily business.

It's not necessarily a bad example, just a poor, limited one that doesn't really highlight anything. If he'd gotten shot in a drug deal gone bad, then yeah, that's a point worth highlighting.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-08-11 03:00:50
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
oldman said: »
Fumiku said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5%

You completely ignored the linked study provided by one of the other posters that put it at 41%.

Yep, it's pretty f*cking huge. It basically boils down to women in progressive countries being taught that they are never responsible for the outcomes of their decisions and thus should never face any consequences. Girl goes to club / bar / house party has a few drinks (is not black out drunk) and meets an attractive (to her at that time) guy and gives him the nonverbal attraction cues. Guy lays on some game and he maneuvers her back to his / her place. Guy escalates into touching, kissing and eventually clothes start being taken off and they have sex. The next morning she wakes up, feels hung over and realizes that she just "did it again" and slept with some random dude she just met. She looks at him and realizes he's not as attractive as she thought he was.

Now in non-progressive/feminist countries the reaction to the scenario is the girl accepting she made a bad choice and dealing with the social consequences (her girlfriends talking about how she slept with a random guy / other girls labeling her a ***) and moving on. In progressive/feminist countries the reaction to that same scenario is "he raped you" in order to avoid the social consequences while simultaneously generating a ton of social approval for being a "rape survivor". Otherwise known as "playing the victim card". It's even worse if she was married and is now trying to keep her walking ATM from divorcing her.
Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here: In the Progressive countries (barring the progressive-feminist countries), one can not legally give consent while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, so, by legal means, she could claim rape. The same could be said if a woman turned to physical sexual acts with a drunken or drugged out man. There's at least enough sympathy, empathy, or compassion to realize this.

The flip side is, do we absolve the person for not drinking responsibly, or partaking of recreational drugs responsibly? Most people would toss that part of responsibility to the winds, because of the "victim card". A lot of laws concerning victims happen to be very female-centric. There is less shame in coming forward as a victim of rape as a female, than there is of being a male, because it's believed on a societal basis, that all men are horny ***, and are only out to get their *** wet. And are considered pussies if they let a woman rape them (there is a very specific train of thought that goes on when people think "rape", that they don't believe it happens to men)
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-08-11 03:39:55
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Quote:
Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here: In the Progressive countries (barring the progressive-feminist countries), one can not legally give consent while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, so, by legal means, she could claim rape. The same could be said if a woman turned to physical sexual acts with a drunken or drugged out man. There's at least enough sympathy, empathy, or compassion to realize this.

Except they don't. Nearly every college "rape" involved both parties consuming alcohol. She is every bit as responsible for raping him but you never see people talk about it. They just blindly hand the female a "I'm not a responsible human" card and absolve her of all responsibility while insisting the man be punished for her bad decision along with his.

Also it's not automatically illegal to have sex while under the influence. The prosecution is required to prove that the women was sufficiently impaired as to be unable to give fully informed consent. This is incredibly difficult to do with just her words and no rape kit. This is only in a legal court of law, university administrative boards are under no such obligation to follow due process. That is why you see girls reporting it to the campus "rape boards" who are run by feminists but not to the police. She waited three weeks to say anything and never got a rape kit done and so there is 0% chance of her getting a trial. Instead the administrative boards will try to throw the guy out of university.

Thankfully a ruling earlier this year found that universities are not part of the judicial system and thus are not granted immunity from civil liability stemming from their administrative boards. The ruling further stipulated that the university itself along with any witness, accuser or administrative staff, to and include the university dean, can be found fully liable for any damages caused by their proceedings. Basically male victims of the college kangaroo courts can just sue the university / girl and administrative staff for any statements made or negative publicity caused by their "trials". There is now a whole rash of libel law suits popping up all over the USA from victims of false rape accusations where they were railroaded and had their public image slandered.

Ultimately what will happen, after victims start winning big awards from liberal universities, is that universities will provide counseling for rape victims and forward them to the local police. Forcing them to go through the legal system will ensure due process is followed and no more innocent men get their lives destroyed.
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By Altimaomega 2014-08-11 03:40:31
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
oldman said: »
Fumiku said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5%

You completely ignored the linked study provided by one of the other posters that put it at 41%.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21164210

Don't glom onto a single study just because it agrees with what you think. There's also more to studies than their abstracts.

You should practice what you preach.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-08-11 03:48:46
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As to the reason why this whole situation was created, it's an inevitable consequence of feminism. Men are genetically programmed to protect women and children, a male who fails to protect is seen as weak and worthless. A male who actively injures or harms a women or child is seen a monster and ejected from the tribe or killed. There is no such reciprocal instinct in women, they only protect their children. All women know men are biased to protect them, it's something they learn right around ages 5~7. Women can and will use men's natural instincts to manipulate them, they have been doing this for millennia and won't stop anytime soon. So now we got a system that's so biased in favor of women that's is hilarious when one mentions "but the patriarchy!". If a women wants to escape the consequences of her actions, she just needs to play the victim card and *poof* every guy in the room gets that little emotionally tug in their hearts, and if a guy doesn't try to protect her from the consequences of her actions, then he's framed as some evil deviant.

If anyone wants to see this in action just check the sentencing statistics for men vs women who commit the same crime. And for a more visual demonstration, watch as every progressive white knight in this forum will now attack and demean be as some sort of "bad guy" for holding all women to the exact same standards of conduct and performance that I hold myself and other men to.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 04:19:39
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Altimaomega said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
oldman said: »
Fumiku said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5%

You completely ignored the linked study provided by one of the other posters that put it at 41%.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21164210

Don't glom onto a single study just because it agrees with what you think. There's also more to studies than their abstracts.

You should practice what you preach.

That study focuses on assaults reported to a University, not the police. As has been noted elsewhere in this thread the standard for establishing an assault in a university is ridiculously low. The "courts" are often stacked with feminists who have an agenda.

Here is that Air Force study I mentioned earlier.Your text to link here.... This little bit is of particular interest.

Dr. Charles McDowell, formerly of the US Air Force's Office of Special Investigations, discovered that 27% of Air Force women who claimed they had been raped later admitted making false accusations of rape. The admission usually came when they were asked to take a lie detector test. With these admitted false accusations he was able to develop 35 criteria distinguishing false accusations and those known to be genuine. Three independent judges then examined the remainder of the cases. Only if all three reviewers independently concluded the original rape allegations were false did they rank them as "false." The total of false allegations became 65%.


TLDR: Air Force study concludes that 65% of rape allegations are false.

So that's one study that puts it at 41%, another that puts it at 65% and a third that puts it at 10%. All significantly higher than the initial 2-5% stat that was quoted as being from "All" studies.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 04:34:21
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Odin.Zicdeh said: »
A lot more than you'd expect. Assault and Murder can have mitigating factors that include stupid behavior on account of the victim, and in some cases completely absolve the accused of the crime. But personally I draw a distinction between aggressive rape and non-aggressive "Rape" which is the kind this law is aimed at clarifying and basically just saying consensual sex can become rape in hindsight because of poor life choices.
I'm confused by your original post then since non-aggressive or mistake sex, by your definition, isn't rape, and that's what it seemed you were referring to when you talked about accepting the risks. In cases of actual rape, I still don't see how the victim's responsibility factors into any criminal proceedings. Getting tipsy, sloppy, or black-out drunk at a party is not a crime nor an excuse so how would that be accounted for?
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 04:36:57
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Altimaomega said: »
You should practice what you preach.
You missed the point. Unsurprisingly.
oldman said: »
The fun thing about the McDowell study is that no one can seem to produce the actual paper. Sorry if I don't find a website called 'falserape.net' a credible source on rape statistics.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 04:48:33
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More on the two studies.

The actual name of the study with it's abstract.

McDowell, Charles P., Ph.D. "False Allegations." Forensic Science Digest, (publication of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations), Vol. 11, No. 4 (December 1985), p. 64.

The study found that 60% of rape allegations are false. The study of 548 allegations was only undertaken after it was noticed that 20% of accusers later admitted they had lied. The researchers did not intially believe the 60% result and conducted two follow-up studies. The 60% finding held but political interference prevented publication.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 04:58:34
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Still no link to the actual study, no record of it on google scholar, and no archives of the Forensic Science Digest. Don't you find that odd? I'm not arguing either way on rape statistics at this point, but singling out a handful of studies doesn't demonstrate anything significant especially when they appear to report widely different results under differing methods.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 05:02:16
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Why don't you go check the library of your university. Look it up on Psychinfo or one of the other library databases. God forbid you might actually have to get off your *** and go to the library to find something. You might even need to, omg, make use of an interlibrary loan to get a hold of a copy.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 05:10:20
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Anything else I can get you while I'm out doing this research on your behalf?
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 Cerberus.Makira
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By Cerberus.Makira 2014-08-11 05:20:48
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Anything else I can get you while I'm out doing this research on your behalf?

Maybe a link to his real account so he can stop hiding and either provide actual documentation or go back to lurking.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 05:22:22
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You're the one that wanted to see the study. To answer your earlier question: No, I don't think the fact that a study from a relatively obscure journal that is extremely politically inconvenient to the feminist movement isn't online is strange at all. It could be as something as simple as a copyright issue.

People like to think that science is pure. It isn't. It is as influenced by politics as anything else. More so really, especially in a University setting where the researchers aren't subject to market forces.
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