California Debates 'yes Means Yes' Sex Assault Law

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California debates 'yes means yes' sex assault law
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-08-10 12:19:58
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SAN DIEGO (AP) — College students have heard a similar refrain for years in campaigns to stop sexual assault: No means no.

Now, as universities around the country that are facing pressure over the handling of rape allegations adopt policies to define consensual sex, California is poised to take it a step further. Lawmakers are considering what would be the first-in-the-nation measure requiring all colleges that receive public funds to set a standard for when "yes means yes."

Defining consensual sex is a growing trend by universities in an effort to do more to protect victims. From the University of California system to Yale, schools have been adopting standards to distinguish when consent was given for a sexual activity and when it was not.

Legislation passed by California's state Senate in May and coming before the Assembly this month would require all schools that receive public funds for student financial assistance to set a so-called "affirmative consent standard" that could be used in investigating and adjudicating sexual assault allegations. That would be defined as "an affirmative, unambiguous and conscious decision" by each party to engage in sexual activity.

Silence or lack of resistance does not constitute consent. The legislation says it's also not consent if the person is drunk, drugged, unconscious or asleep.

Lawmakers say consent can be nonverbal, and universities with similar policies have outlined examples as maybe a nod of the head or moving in closer to the person.

Several state legislatures, including Maryland, Texas and Connecticut, introduced bills in the past year to push colleges to do more after a White House task force reported that 1 in 5 female college students is a victim of sexual assault. The U.S. Education Department also took the unprecedented step of releasing the names of schools facing federal investigation for the way they handle sexual abuse allegations.

But no state legislation has gone as far as California's bill in requiring a consent standard.

Critics say the state is overstepping its bounds. The Los Angeles Times in an editorial after the bill passed the state Senate 27-4 wrote that it raises questions as to whether it is "reasonable" or "enforceable." The legislation is based on the White House task force's recommendations.

"It seems extremely difficult and extraordinarily intrusive to micromanage sex so closely as to tell young people what steps they must take in the privacy of their own dorm rooms," the newspaper said.

Some fear navigating the murky waters of consent spells trouble for universities.

"Frequently these cases involve two individuals, both of whom maybe were under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and it can be very tricky to ascertain whether consent was obtained," said Ada Meloy, general counsel of the American Council on Education, which represents college presidents.

She said schools need to guarantee a safe environment for students, while law enforcement is best suited for handling more serious sexual assault cases.

John F. Banzhaf III, a George Washington University's Law School professor, believes having university disciplinary panels interpret vague cues and body language will open the door for more lawsuits.

The legal definition of rape in most states means the perpetrator used force or the threat of force against the victim, but the California legislation could set the stage in which both parties could accuse each other of sexual assault, he said.

"This bill would very, very radically change the definition of rape," he said.

University of California at Berkeley student Meghan Warner, 20, said that's a good thing. She said she was sexually assaulted during her freshman year by two men at a fraternity but didn't report it because she believed "that unless it was a stranger at night with a weapon who attacked you when you were walking home, that it wasn't rape. It's just a crappy thing that happened." She now runs campus workshops to teach students what constitutes consent.

"Most students don't know what consent is," she said. "I've asked at the workshops how many people think if a girl is blacked out drunk that it's OK to have sex with her. The amount of people who raised their hands was just startling."

Defining consent may be easy to do on paper, said Laura Nguyen, a 21-year-old San Diego State University senior, but "we're talking about college students out at night and the reality is there's not just 'yes' or 'no.' There is a lot of in between. I really think it depends on the situation."

The legislation initially stated that "if there is confusion as to whether a person has consented or continues to consent to sexual activity, it is essential that the participants stop the activity until the confusion can be clearly resolved."

After some interpreted that as asking people to stop after each kiss to get a verbal agreement before going to the next level, the bill was amended to say consent must be "ongoing" and "can be revoked at any time."

"California needs to provide our students with education, resources, consistent policies and justice so that the system is not stacked against survivors," state Sen. Kevin de Leon, a Los Angeles Democrat, said in promoting the bill.

Supporters say investigators would have to determine whether consent had been given by both parties instead of focusing on whether the complainant resisted or said no.

Denice Labertew of the California Coalition Against Sexual Assault said the bill fosters a cultural change: "There's a lot of criticism around affirmative consent because it requires us to change the way we normally think about this."

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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-10 13:07:05
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Only in California would "yes means no"...after the fact.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-10 13:46:56
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Liberalism gone way too far.
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 13:48:30
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I think this is a good thing, simply because men really get *** over when it comes to defining "consensual sex" in courts. This is a step in the right direction in holding females liable for their actions.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-10 13:51:30
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
I think this is a step in the right direction in holding females liable for their actions.
I really hadn't considered this. While that would be a good thing, I don't see how this bill would help start that.
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 13:58:18
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
I think this is a step in the right direction in holding females liable for their actions.
I really hadn't considered this. While that would be a good thing, I don't see how this bill would help start that.

By clearly defining what sexual consent is, both parties are now legally liable for their actions- not just the male.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-10 14:00:42
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Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5% range, there seems to be a lot of animosity focused on the relatively rare instance. We had a case locally about 10 years ago where a girl accused 4 or 5 members of a local high school sports team of raping her. When one of the accused furnished a tape of the encounter that had her obviously consenting and enjoying herself, it was obviously dropped. I have no idea if she faced any charges for lying, etc.

I agree it happens, obviously, but we seem to jump to blaming the victims way too fast in almost every situation. I have no real opinion on the law, but I agree that what constitutes consent needs to be better defined, there are a lot of young people praying on their peers.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-10 14:03:10
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
I think this is a step in the right direction in holding females liable for their actions.
I really hadn't considered this. While that would be a good thing, I don't see how this bill would help start that.

By clearly defining what sexual consent is, both parties are now legally liable for their actions- not just the male.
Idk. I can see as it making younger males too scared to make any moves though as females aren't really clear on their intentions until their cloths come off.

But who knows after awhile it could make females more sexually confident towards males.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-10 14:05:46
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
I think this is a step in the right direction in holding females liable for their actions.
I really hadn't considered this. While that would be a good thing, I don't see how this bill would help start that.

By clearly defining what sexual consent is, both parties are now legally liable for their actions- not just the male.
Idk. I can see as it making younger males too scared to make any moves though as females aren't really clear on their intentions until their cloths come off.

But who knows after awhile it could make females more sexually confident towards males.

Meh, it's not rape if you make a move and she rejects you. If anything, it would just make a clear line on the subject of "we were drunk, she didn't say no or anything". Right, genius, she was passed out.
 Bahamut.Megrim
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By Bahamut.Megrim 2014-08-10 14:10:20
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I believe this could be a good thing because there have been a few instances where a woman decided she made a mistake and then went forward and told a cop that she was raped only because she was remorseful by giving it up when she wasn't ready.
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 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2014-08-10 14:10:32
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Consensual sex soon to be treated like nuclear missile launches, gotta have 2 BFF's with verified launch codes before anything goes down.
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 14:12:51
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5% range, there seems to be a lot of animosity focused on the relatively rare instance.

Rape/sexual assault is a touchy subject, particularly for the victim. No one is focusing on the relatively rare instance or false rape accusations. This is about holding both, not just female or male, but both parties liable for their actions.

Ultimately this serves to protect both parties.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-10 14:15:32
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Considering all studies put false rape accusations in the 2-5% range, there seems to be a lot of animosity focused on the relatively rare instance.

Rape/sexual assault is a touchy subject, particularly for the victim. No one is focusing on the relatively rare instance or false rape accusations. This is about holding both, not just female or male, but both parties liable for their actions.

Ultimately this serves to protect both parties.

"Nobody" IS...
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 14:16:12
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Rape is one of those topics you really have to be careful when you talk about. Its generally something I don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole.
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By fonewear 2014-08-10 14:19:42
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Bill Clinton to the rescue: 1:16

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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-10 14:22:12
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Bahamut.Megrim said: »
I believe this could be a good thing because there have been a few instances where a woman decided she made a mistake and then went forward and told a cop that she was raped only because she was remorseful by giving it up when she wasn't ready.
For legal reasons I could see this being good and it might socially be integrated as such.

Youths far too often live in a culture where they act first then take into account the law later on to suit their own needs.

Might reverse people's thinking into taking into account the law first then acting.
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By fonewear 2014-08-10 14:22:24
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No means yes and yes means maybe ?
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By fonewear 2014-08-10 14:27:19
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Rape is one of those topics you really have to be careful when you talk about. Its generally something I don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole.

So when I give a speech at NOW I should limit it to just three rape jokes and not ten ?
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 14:29:47
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fonewear said: »
No means yes and yes means maybe ?

Does a crotch-grab mean yes?
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By fonewear 2014-08-10 14:32:47
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
fonewear said: »
No means yes and yes means maybe ?

Does a crotch-grab mean yes?

Only if you are the king of pop.
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 14:33:32
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fonewear said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
fonewear said: »
No means yes and yes means maybe ?

Does a crotch-grab mean yes?

Only if you are the king of pop.

I meant grabbing the other person's crotch lol
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By fonewear 2014-08-10 14:36:17
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
fonewear said: »
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
fonewear said: »
No means yes and yes means maybe ?

Does a crotch-grab mean yes?

Only if you are the king of pop.

I meant grabbing the other person's crotch lol

Well if both people are drunk I'll allow it.

If anyone complains just say it is performance art.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-10 14:45:32
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Only if you are the king of pop, and it's a minor?
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 14:48:49
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-10 15:06:30
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I kinda like when people make a rational point rather than try to cram something down my throat after my initial objection.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-08-10 15:22:33
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
I kinda like when people make a rational point rather than try to cram something down my throat after my initial objection.
"Once you get used to it, you'll like it"
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2014-08-10 16:19:09
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No means yes and yes means harder
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-08-10 16:33:44
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This is quite well intentioned and well thought out save for one tiny thing....

It is going to all comedown to an unenforceable he said she said (or any other combinations of gendered personal pronouns) subjective mess. Not much different than now.
 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-08-10 16:51:51
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
This is quite well intentioned and well thought out save for one tiny thing....

It is going to all comedown to an unenforceable he said she said (or any other combinations of gendered personal pronouns) subjective mess. Not much different than now.
Not really. In the current cases prior to this, it's always been "He said/She said/lock him up and register him as a sexual predator for life, ruining him and his reputation permanently, regardless of evidence to the contrary"
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By Quetzalcoatl.Gencay 2014-08-10 17:29:46
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Another crazy idea would be video tape them both agreeing to it (only the agreeing part :P). Then each get a copy of the tape that way if one goes to the police and tries to say i got raped the other can show the tape where they both agreed on sexual activity.
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