California Debates 'yes Means Yes' Sex Assault Law

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California debates 'yes means yes' sex assault law
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-08-10 17:31:55
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Quetzalcoatl.Gencay said: »
Another crazy idea would be video tape them both agreeing to it (only the agreeing part :P). Then each get a copy of the tape that way if one goes to the police and tries to say i got raped the other can show the tape where they both agreed on sexual activity.
The problem with that is, no matter what happens after the agreement, one or both can decide to say "no" to anything more happening at any time.
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By oldman 2014-08-10 17:36:45
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
I think this is a good thing, simply because men really get *** over when it comes to defining "consensual sex" in courts. This is a step in the right direction in holding females liable for their actions.


Not really. Taken to it's extreme you would need consent for every touch, every act. There would be no implied consent for anything. So a women who decides after the fact that she made a bad or embarrassing choice would always be able to find something that, under this law, constituted an assault. This isn't about protecting victims, it's about criminalizing men.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-10 21:21:18
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oldman said: »
This isn't about protecting victims, it's about criminalizing men.

I agree, to a certain degree, that the whole sexual assault process criminalizes men as a sex. Such is particularly exemplified in male rape cases.

If a male goes to the cops and yells rape it isn't the same as if a female goes and does it. There is still a huge stigma regarding male rape cases.

What I hope comes from this law is better choices.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-10 21:29:49
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
oldman said: »
This isn't about protecting victims, it's about criminalizing men.

I agree, to a certain degree, that the whole sexual assault process criminalizes men as a sex. Such is particularly exemplified in male rape cases.

If a male goes to the cops and yells rape it isn't the same as if a female goes and does it. There is still a huge stigma regarding male rape cases.

What I hope comes from this law is better choices.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect in the way these cases are viewed. Let's say a gay man accuses another man of rape, the stigma would be less sympathetic than if a straight man accused a man of rape, or they might just assume a male/male rape was less legitimate than a female victim. Similar to a female/female or male/female rape. It seems that the only case where most people don't immediately question the validity of the claim would be female/male.

I do need to correct my initial statistic, it seems as many as 8% of rape accusations, in some studies, can be proven false, which is higher than most case studies, but also eludes to there being a plausible larger number than cannot be proven false, but probably are. Moreover, it seems that even less than 8% of rape accusation actually lead to any kind of conviction. It's no wonder so many go unreported.
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By oldman 2014-08-10 22:03:55
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Odin.Jassik said: »
I do need to correct my initial statistic, it seems as many as 8% of rape accusations, in some studies, can be proven false, which is higher than most case studies, but also eludes to there being a plausible larger number than cannot be proven false, but probably are.


There is reason to believe that the rate of false accusations is much much higher than that. Women are often incentivized to make false claims and face no real consequences for doing so, even if discovered. That's why "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the correct standard for proving guilt and that these cases should be handled by the police and courts, not universities.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-10 23:11:28
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oldman said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
I do need to correct my initial statistic, it seems as many as 8% of rape accusations, in some studies, can be proven false, which is higher than most case studies, but also eludes to there being a plausible larger number than cannot be proven false, but probably are.


There is reason to believe that the rate of false accusations is much much higher than that. Women are often incentivized to make false claims and face no real consequences for doing so, even if discovered. That's why "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the correct standard for proving guilt and that these cases should be handled by the police and courts, not universities.

I'd imagine it's largely offset by the number that don't get reported at all. I'm not sure what you see as incentive for falsely accusing someone of rape.
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By oldman 2014-08-10 23:24:26
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Odin.Jassik said: »
I'm not sure what you see as incentive for falsely accusing someone of rape.

Boyfriend finds out she cheated. "No, I didn't. I was raped."

She gets ***from her girlfriends who don't approve or are jealous. "It's not my fault, I was raped."

There are a lot of people that seem to feel that being a victim is shway. Some women will make a false accusation because they think it improves their status (and in some sub cultures it will).

That doesn't even get into the power it gives a girl to *** with a boyfriend that ends a relationship, or ends it in a way she doesn't like.

The power to make false accusations without consequence is the power to deflect shame and consequences for bad decisions and the power to nuke a man's life for any reason.


Odin.Jassik said: »
I'd imagine it's largely offset by the number that don't get reported at all.

How exactly is that an offset? False accusations completely destroy the credibility of real victims. Real victims are less likely to come forward when the system is flooded with false accusations.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-10 23:49:28
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oldman said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
I'm not sure what you see as incentive for falsely accusing someone of rape.

Boyfriend finds out she cheated. "No, I didn't. I was raped."

She gets ***from her girlfriends who don't approve or are jealous. "It's not my fault, I was raped."

There are a lot of people that seem to feel that being a victim is shway. Some women will make a false accusation because they think it improves their status (and in some sub cultures it will).

That doesn't even get into the power it gives a girl to *** with a boyfriend that ends a relationship, or ends it in a way she doesn't like.

The power to make false accusations without consequence is the power to deflect shame and consequences for bad decisions and the power to nuke a man's life for any reason.


Odin.Jassik said: »
I'd imagine it's largely offset by the number that don't get reported at all.

How exactly is that an offset? False accusations completely destroy the credibility of real victims. Real victims are less likely to come forward when the system is flooded with false accusations.

false accusations do happen, but you'd have to provide some substance to support it "flooding the system". Also, just FYI, the main driving force behind not reporting is shame, not the system being flooded with false accusations.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 00:01:13
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Maybe girls should sign a waiver before deciding to get blackout drunk while hanging out with a bunch of college boys? I'm not justifying the behavior of the boys, but come on....
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 00:05:34
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Oh I completely agree.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-11 00:09:51
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Odin.Jassik said: »
I'd imagine it's largely offset by the number that don't get reported at all. I'm not sure what you see as incentive for falsely accusing someone of rape.

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These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations.

False rape allegations - Eugene Kanin, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Purdue University
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By oldman 2014-08-11 00:12:02
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Maybe girls just shouldn't get black out drunk.

Shame isn't the only reason girls don't report. Fear of not being believed is a big part of it. If you have a lot of people making false accusations the chances of being believed go way down. People become much more skeptical. And rightly so. There was a pretty big case at Ohio University not that long ago. I've seen more and more cases of false accusations making their way into the news.

I also notice you didn't address any thing I said about the motivations for making a false accusation.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 00:13:24
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Maybe girls should sign a waiver before deciding to get blackout drunk while hanging out with a bunch of college boys? I'm not justifying the behavior of the boys, but come on....
That's exactly what you're doing. Am I missing something?
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By oldman 2014-08-11 00:14:59
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Quote:
These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations.

False rape allegations - Eugene Kanin, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Purdue University

Wow that study found 41% of reported rapes were false accusations. I seem to recall something about an Air Force study that placed it as high as 60%. I'll go looking for it later when I have some more time.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 00:18:53
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Maybe girls should sign a waiver before deciding to get blackout drunk while hanging out with a bunch of college boys? I'm not justifying the behavior of the boys, but come on....
That's exactly what you're doing. Am I missing something?

Apparently you are. The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people make really stupid decisions and then try to place the blame squarely on someone else when things go predictably wrong.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 00:18:56
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oldman said: »
I also notice you didn't address any thing I said about the motivations for making a false accusation.

It'd be nice if you'd post under your main account.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 00:25:00
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Maybe girls should sign a waiver before deciding to get blackout drunk while hanging out with a bunch of college boys? I'm not justifying the behavior of the boys, but come on....
That's exactly what you're doing. Am I missing something?

That's not really justification, but if you are aware that it could happen and then take no steps to protect yourself, a lot of the sympathy is lost. If you're in a situation where you aren't completely safe, getting hammered out of your mind is a pretty poor decision. It doesn't justify someone taking advantage of you, but you aren't doing anything to deter it.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 00:40:29
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Maybe girls should sign a waiver before deciding to get blackout drunk while hanging out with a bunch of college boys? I'm not justifying the behavior of the boys, but come on....
That's exactly what you're doing. Am I missing something?

Apparently you are. The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people make really stupid decisions and then try to place the blame squarely on someone else when things go predictably wrong.
The blame is all on someone - the person that decided rape was an okay thing. All the blame falls solely on them. Unequivocally. No deviations.

Is the girl to blame for getting black out drunk? Yes. That's it. She's to blame for being vulnerable. Last I heard, being vulnerable isn't an excuse to exploit someone.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-08-11 00:40:55
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Signing a waiver implies some expectation that a woman will get raped and by not signing it this somehow shifts some blame onto the victim. That's justification. I can understand, somewhat, a loss of sympathy, but that's not what was said.

Unless it was meant as snark in the first place, which is what I was unsure about.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 00:44:11
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
The blame is all on someone - the person that decided rape was an okay thing. All the blame falls solely on them. Unequivocally. No deviations.

Is the girl to blame for getting black out drunk? Yes. That's it. She's to blame for being vulnerable. Last I heard, being vulnerable isn't an excuse to exploit someone.


Because you have no responsibility for your own safety. Choose to jump off a cliff, don't be surprised when you go splat at it's base.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 00:45:49
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Because becoming inebriated, an act celebrated by our culture, is the same as jumping off a bridge. Logic, folks.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 00:47:41
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Signing a waiver implies some expectation that a woman will get raped and by not signing it this somehow shifts some blame onto the victim. That's justification. I can understand, somewhat, a loss of sympathy, but that's not what was said.

Unless it was meant as snark in the first place, which is what I was unsure about.


I'm pretty sure he doesn't intend for women to actually sign a rape waiver before they have a drink. It's just a way of pointing out the absurdity of trying to protect someone who isn't willing to protect themselves.

Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Maybe girls should sign a waiver before deciding to get blackout drunk while hanging out with a bunch of college boys? I'm not justifying the behavior of the boys, but come on....
That's exactly what you're doing. Am I missing something?

Apparently you are. The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people make really stupid decisions and then try to place the blame squarely on someone else when things go predictably wrong.
The blame is all on someone - the person that decided rape was an okay thing. All the blame falls solely on them. Unequivocally. No deviations.

Is the girl to blame for getting black out drunk? Yes. That's it. She's to blame for being vulnerable. Last I heard, being vulnerable isn't an excuse to exploit someone.

Would you put the same binary qualifications if a shop owner didn't lock his doors and someone burgled the place at night? I don't mean it as an analogy, I'm just curious what constitutes shared blame.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 00:50:34
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Signing a waiver implies some expectation that a woman will get raped and by not signing it this somehow shifts some blame onto the victim. That's justification. I can understand, somewhat, a loss of sympathy, but that's not what was said.

Unless it was meant as snark in the first place, which is what I was unsure about.

It was meant as snark. I could have made that more clear. Regardless, I do agree that offenders should be prosecuted, otherwise there would be incentive to commit crimes. Playing the sympathy card to earn extra dough in court for emotional damage or something? Puh-lease.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 00:51:40
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Would you put the same binary qualifications if a shop owner didn't lock his doors and someone burgled the place at night? I don't mean it as an analogy, I'm just curious what constitutes shared blame.
Top Show Op

Absolutely. If they aren't going to take they most basic steps to protect themselves why the hell should I give a *** about what happened to them?

They obviously don't.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 01:00:27
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I'm sure that's exactly what you'd tell your daughter after she'd been raped, in a similar example. Do people honestly lack empathy to this degree?

Rape is a war crime folks - a crime against humanity. It is something abhorrent that no person deserves, and it is only a "force-of-nature" in that there are people who are medically imbalanced who commit said acts triggered by that imbalance. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about morons who think they won't get caught if they sexually molest another person, because they're drunk/high/what-have-you.

The act may be analogous with another situation, but the stakes are vastly different; and that changes the game.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 01:08:42
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Murder is worse, but I'm going to feel more sorry for the person killed by a random act of violence than by the person who got killed when they tap-danced into Crip headquarters while wearing red.
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By Kell 2014-08-11 01:12:14
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Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »
Rape/sexual assault is a touchy subject, particularly for the victim. No one is focusing on the relatively rare instance or false rape accusations. This is about holding both, not just female or male, but both parties liable for their actions.

Ultimately this serves to protect both parties

Who knows, it might work. A friend of mine is from Norway, his friends took him out and got him blitzed. He woke up with a (not so beautiful) UK woman doing the deed to him. Wasn't too happy about it, his friends couldn't understand why, and apparently they'd told her to go for it when they brought him back to his apartment.

As I understand it, his country does allow him to press charges for rape, but he was fairly embarrassed by the whole situation.

Quote:
"California needs to provide our students with education, resources, consistent policies and justice so that the system is not stacked against survivors," state Sen. Kevin de Leon, a Los Angeles Democrat, said in promoting the bill.

I do wonder how much of this policy will actually apply in the case of a drunk, drugged or otherwise impaired man, or if it'll be skewed as much as it is now. I know the family courts have allowed female rapists to sue their underage victims for child support, so if they're going to go to this length to supposedly put consent on even ground, I'd like to see that kind of issue and other non-consensual results dealt with by this legislation also.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 01:15:00
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@Ravael: Your exaggeration hurts your case more than helps it. Even at the apex of your argument, there is no equivalent to that example.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 01:23:19
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
@Ravael: Your exaggeration hurts your case more than helps it. Even at the apex of your argument, there is no equivalent to that example.

It doesn't matter. People will always have less sympathy/empathy towards victims who willingly place themselves in situations that are unsafe, with the exception of police, firemen, and the like.
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By oldman 2014-08-11 01:25:24
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Cerberus.Tikal said: »
I'm sure that's exactly what you'd tell your daughter after she'd been raped


I would teach my daughter to never put herself in that situation.

A few years back I was at a music festival. One of the guys in the campsite next to us doused his pants with lighter fluid and then lit them. Everyone started to panic. They got him put out. He had to be taken away by an ambulance because he had third degree burns. His girlfriend said that he pulled that kind of thing a lot. It made him the center of attention, and of course that's why he did it.

Empathy is really just the ability to form mental maps of others. Compassion is a separate thing all together. While everyone else was running around trying to save this kid from his own stupidity and attention whoring, I looked at him, understood he was doing this because he wanted the attention, and went looking for a hanger and bag of marshmallows. I had empathy. I lacked compassion. To my mind he didn't deserve it.
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