Food For Thought
Food for Thought
I'd imagine that needing a clear via shout already says something about you as a player, and that you're not worth bringing.
What exactly do you presume it means? I am a stay at home Dad with 3 kids out for the summer. I don't have a set schedule to be able to join a Delve LS with mandatory events. Instead, I am in a casual shell with 6-7 people that I've played FFXi with for over 10 yrs. I know how to play my jobs, I have them geared relatively well, and I am quite capable of following instructions. I, like many players in my situation, rely on shouts for KI clears, wins, and plasm farms. What *exactly* does this say about me "as a player" that makes it so I am "not worth bringing?"
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That thought process is the entire premise of this thread though. "You clearly failed to get a clear by now". I am not in an LS that does them and I don't always have the jobs needed in the shouts or, as I posted above, been in groups several time that clear the 5 NMs but fail on Tojil. Point is that is nothing more than an elitist mentality. You're (not you specifically, though maybe) assuming you know everything about a person and labelling them lazy because of a couple pieces of gear and/or needing a win via shouts.
And in response to your mushroom analogy, my family is very big in restaurant industry, and it would blow your mind how many "top tier dish components" come out of a can and not fresh ;)
And in response to your mushroom analogy, my family is very big in restaurant industry, and it would blow your mind how many "top tier dish components" come out of a can and not fresh ;)
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
mentality isn't elitism, it's good leadership.
Exact opposite of good leadership. A good leader works with the weak links and makes them better. We learn this day 1 in the military Leadership Training. ;)
And as far as knowing I have failed to acquire what he wants, I have a Tojil clear. Oat's just didn't drop. I have done the run quite a few times over. He knows NOTHING about me except I do not have 1 piece of gear, I have the piece *directly* below them in Delve.
Jos, if we all followed that logic, noone would have any clears because we'd all be inviting only people who already have them.
For all you know that MNK got clear on GEO and knows ***about MNK.
For all you know that MNK got clear on GEO and knows ***about MNK.
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
I'd always choose the highest percent chance of success for my members over adding extra risks
And to touch on this, let me ask you this. Would you rather take the Rigor MNK with a Black Belt who can follow instructions and actually count to 7 (Hello Matamata) or the Oatixur MNK rocking a Brown Belt and other crap gear?
I think the first would increase your chance of success over the second but I see the second get taken way more often. Just a thought.
From what ive read if a mnk these days is using BB in a tp set they are doing it wrong.
Asura.Sthrnrebel said: »
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
I'd always choose the highest percent chance of success for my members over adding extra risks
And to touch on this, let me ask you this. Would you rather take the Rigor MNK with a Black Belt who can follow instructions and actually count to 7 (Hello Matamata) or the Oatixur MNK rocking a Brown Belt and other crap gear?
I think the first would increase your chance of success over the second but I see the second get taken way more often. Just a thought.
I got Oatixur before black belt :P!
Just need a stun bot add on for windower and come august most pug should be able to kill ^^
I didn't have an LS to do delve with either. So I grabbed some people and went and got the clear myself. Was really tough too, getting the first clear without someone holding my hand. Wiped god knows how many times, but we kept at it and eventually got the clear
So you can see how it annoys me when I see people sit around and whine about not having clears yet. It says more about you as a player than anything else.
So you can see how it annoys me when I see people sit around and whine about not having clears yet. It says more about you as a player than anything else.
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
So you can see how it annoys me when I see people sit around and whine about not having clears yet. It says more about you as a player than anything else.
I don't know whether that is aimed at me or in general, but if it is aimed at me, I have the Tojil clear at least. I'm not here arguing that I need help. I am content where I am at. The point of this thread is for new/returning players being shunned out of Delve content. Not a veteran player like myself who isn't part of a Delve LS.
You have a Mandau and Twashtar. This tells me you were playing for at least a few months before SoA came out. You knew how the game worked and probably did a lot of the Abyssea/NNI/Salvage V2 etc to keep current in the game. You shouting to form these groups for clears doesn't mean squat in this thread. You were a continuous player like myself lacking an LS. I am talking and advocating for the players that weren't here AT ALL for this content and are coming into SoA fresh.
Hey in defense of Jos. I came to Biz 2 and half years ago . I did not have a single plus 1 item on any of my jobs. He helped me for hours only knowing me from the forums . I got my 1st plus 1 . I will most likely be back in a month. My DD's gear is still good,but my weapons will need work. Thankfully I have some decent mage jobs to get me things. Does it suck, kind of. But I do agree I will be better off than someone else just starting up the day I come back.
So I'm no longer an 11 player kind of holding out for 14 mostly because i missed SoA and really have no desire to deal with the delve only delve attitude i keep hearing about.
Anyways point is started playing wow, major issue i run into with other players is most don't even have enough gold to buy/do the things they need to in order to ungimp themselves and as far as other mmo's ive played wow i *** easy as hell to make money in, i mean really really easy.
That and i have a semi hard time with the fact that almost anything you want to know about a game can be found online now a days, stuck on xyz boss? wiki it, cant find the key to the skeleton door check game faqs...
Thing is a lot of the atypically bad players don't even bother to ask first much less look up outside resources to educate themselves on how to play better and often get defensive if you interfere unless they themselves are the ones seeking said help.
Sylph.Knala said: »
So I'm no longer an 11 player kind of holding out for 14 mostly because i missed SoA and really have no desire to deal with the delve only delve attitude i keep hearing about.
Anyways point is started playing wow, major issue i run into with other players is most don't even have enough gold to buy/do the things they need to in order to ungimp themselves and as far as other mmo's ive played wow i *** easy as hell to make money in, i mean really really easy.
That and i have a semi hard time with the fact that almost anything you want to know about a game can be found online now a days, stuck on xyz boss? wiki it, cant find the key to the skeleton door check game faqs...
Thing is a lot of the atypically bad players don't even bother to ask first much less look up outside resources to educate themselves on how to play better and often get defensive if you interfere unless they themselves are the ones seeking said help.
Anyways point is started playing wow, major issue i run into with other players is most don't even have enough gold to buy/do the things they need to in order to ungimp themselves and as far as other mmo's ive played wow i *** easy as hell to make money in, i mean really really easy.
That and i have a semi hard time with the fact that almost anything you want to know about a game can be found online now a days, stuck on xyz boss? wiki it, cant find the key to the skeleton door check game faqs...
Thing is a lot of the atypically bad players don't even bother to ask first much less look up outside resources to educate themselves on how to play better and often get defensive if you interfere unless they themselves are the ones seeking said help.
This is sort of what I was getting at until some dipshit thought it was cool to bring us up to snuff that's he's a father and has children, like anyone gives a ***, and that useless fact brings nothing to the topic or argument at hand.
Read the conversation between the OP and the player in question again, about him wanting to invite him into his guild. His guild mates were gonna go all, "mutiny" if he joined, and the response from him was, "It's ok, I understand". He knew he didn't know what he was doing in a raid scenario. I don't feel sorry for this player, I really don't. It's not difficult to look up and install mods, and it takes two seconds to look up something on Elitistjerks to find a rotation. The game isn't *** hard, it hasn't been since 40-man Naxx.
Coming from someone who played World of Warcraft on and off since beta, the game has become a serious joke. Smash 4-buttons and collect the next tier of useless purple ***.
Asura.Sthrnrebel said: »
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
So you can see how it annoys me when I see people sit around and whine about not having clears yet. It says more about you as a player than anything else.
I don't know whether that is aimed at me or in general, but if it is aimed at me, I have the Tojil clear at least. I'm not here arguing that I need help. I am content where I am at. The point of this thread is for new/returning players being shunned out of Delve content. Not a veteran player like myself who isn't part of a Delve LS.
You have a Mandau and Twashtar. This tells me you were playing for at least a few months before SoA came out. You knew how the game worked and probably did a lot of the Abyssea/NNI/Salvage V2 etc to keep current in the game. You shouting to form these groups for clears doesn't mean squat in this thread. You were a continuous player like myself lacking an LS. I am talking and advocating for the players that weren't here AT ALL for this content and are coming into SoA fresh.
New/returning players really shouldn't immediately jump into delve mega bosses.
And knowing how the game works really shouldn't be held against me.
And I wouldn't ever shout to fill up a linkshell. That's a terrible way to get people, and that's a terrible way to find a shell.
I think that's really all I need to say. Given your posts, I have a pretty good idea of where you're coming from, and all I can tell you is to keep at it.
I'm not talking about jumping into Delve Mega Bosses. I am talking Delve period. Inside or outside NMs. New/returning players are excluded from these for "Delve DD's" or not having good enough gear though they need these kills to get the better gear.
Knowing how the game works is entirely the reason it should be held against you. A new/returning player doesn't know how the game works. That's been a major underlying topic of this thread...
I don't really know why you're telling me to keep at it? I've already said these posts do not apply to me. I have my Delve runs and relics and know how the game works, etc etc. I have been talking about the people that are new/returning who cannot get these things.
Lastly, Kengo, you're a little *** that really needs to grow up. Based on your comments, you sound like some spoiled little preteen that wants to act like some major douche because you don't have to look someone in the face when you say it and be held accountable for what you say. Gotta love the internet badasses here. Get over yourself and try growing up some.
Knowing how the game works is entirely the reason it should be held against you. A new/returning player doesn't know how the game works. That's been a major underlying topic of this thread...
I don't really know why you're telling me to keep at it? I've already said these posts do not apply to me. I have my Delve runs and relics and know how the game works, etc etc. I have been talking about the people that are new/returning who cannot get these things.
Lastly, Kengo, you're a little *** that really needs to grow up. Based on your comments, you sound like some spoiled little preteen that wants to act like some major douche because you don't have to look someone in the face when you say it and be held accountable for what you say. Gotta love the internet badasses here. Get over yourself and try growing up some.
Tbh a newbie being left out of the endgame content is nothing new. In the past linkshells had requirements as well for Dynamis, HNM and whatever. The difference now is that Abyssea and VW gave everyone a chance to be part of the endgame community despite of their level and now nobody wants to go back to being out of the picture. Casual content exists, but no one wants to do it anymore, everyone wants the best available cause they're now used to things that way. I don't consider this the players' fault(both high and low end ones), like I said many times it's just that each person has different expectations from their game experience.
Complete Delve bosses then back to afk right ?
Do you ever post anything useful other than meaningless one-liners?
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Pretty good summary, Sehachan. I agree entirely. Abyssea was far more pug friendly than most things pre-Abyssea. I remember having a diff LS for everything. But after the game shifting from needing an 18+ person LS to compete in top tier content, down to needing 1-4, then back to 18+ after a what, 4 yr gap? Seems rather foolish on the Dev's part and nonhardcore or time limited people are back at being outcast and/or hard pressed to fit in the current meta niche.
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Do you ever post anything useful other than meaningless one-liners?
Of course!
He/she post his/her avatar, and thats good enough.
shut up knala you smell!
Pantafernando said: »
He/she post his/her avatar, and thats good enough.
That avi looks like a he/she
This topic was a good read. FWIW, I think the OP's article is spot-on. Some MMOs, FFXI being a perfect example, become so poisoned with elitism that it has the effect of slowly killing the game. New players get an icy reception so they just throw up their hands and quit. I've seen it many times, and it's actually gotten worse since Seekers of Adoulin came out. Hell, I was doing other stuff when the expansion first came out, and now Delve shouts are pretty much dead on Sylph so it's hard to finish gearing (though I do have most of the stuff I want). The few shouts that I see are generally looking for the same couple of jobs- BRD, GEO, sometimes PLD or SCH.
The noob-unfriendly environment in this game is mostly the fault of the playerbase and not of the game itself. There IS a path to get started in FFXI- solo > GoV > Abyssea to cap/+1&+2 > Reives > Skirmish > Delve. But players are getting cockblocked at various points due to lack of help or lack of participation. I see people shouting for +1 NMs for hours without being able to fill a group, or trying to get missions done that they can't solo.
As far as gearing/leveling a support job, why should you have to? Final Fantasy XI is the only MMO that I can think of where you have to level one class in order to have any chance of playing another. Yes, too many people want to be DDs, so groups/shells can be picky when it comes to them. But a lot of that is because playing a healer/support in this game sucks compared to other MMOs. I main WHM, and compared to playing disc/holy priest or resto shammy in World of Warcraft it's terrible, just terrible.
The noob-unfriendly environment in this game is mostly the fault of the playerbase and not of the game itself. There IS a path to get started in FFXI- solo > GoV > Abyssea to cap/+1&+2 > Reives > Skirmish > Delve. But players are getting cockblocked at various points due to lack of help or lack of participation. I see people shouting for +1 NMs for hours without being able to fill a group, or trying to get missions done that they can't solo.
As far as gearing/leveling a support job, why should you have to? Final Fantasy XI is the only MMO that I can think of where you have to level one class in order to have any chance of playing another. Yes, too many people want to be DDs, so groups/shells can be picky when it comes to them. But a lot of that is because playing a healer/support in this game sucks compared to other MMOs. I main WHM, and compared to playing disc/holy priest or resto shammy in World of Warcraft it's terrible, just terrible.
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
This reminds me of Bluspeed. Guy *** up hella back in the day, and now nobody will invite him to anything. He's currently wearing like... rigor/potestas usu+1/asperity/set ears thaumas/melee+2/rajas/eponas atheling/black/mani/af+2 while this is far from a perfect set, it's much better than some people I have seen in groups. Guy's been shouting 700k/member and allowing all drops freelot except for the 45 he wants from salvage for 12 hours a day to try to get sune-ate, and nobody will go with him. Instead, people who have gripes from back in the day just trash talk in shout. I'd be more than happy to bring him to a T6 so he could upgrade his weapon, but I'm sure everyone in my group would immediately rip me a new one at the very thought. This kind of stuff is stupid. People hold grudges over the dumbest crap, and elitism in FFXI even supercedes actual DPS in many cases. I'm not going to say he hasn't done his share of idiotic things, but in the conversations I've had with him he's clearly trying to improve and he's working on the correct gear: he just can't get anywhere because nobody will group with him. I got my rani clear in partial af3, without a brew. I got my first nyzul 100 clears in brawny adargas and a scorpion harness, without speedhacks. I got my first T6 clear in rigor, bereaver, rank 2 mani. People with much better gear than this are immediately dismissed from these events, not because their DPS is inadequate, but because the leaders feel it makes their invested effort more meaningful. They want the gear they've obtained to make them special, and while that's all well and good, it's not REQUIRED to do the event and they're blocking out a huge portion of the server. Kaparu stated a potential solution in support jobs, but that's not as much of a blanket solution as you'd think. GEO, COR, to a lesser extent BRD.. yea, you can go near-naked. However, those spots are most likely going to friends of the leader.. naked or otherwise. If you're new to the game, leveling COR or GEO won't immediately help your progress.. you need people that trust you to do them. Furthermore, many people don't enjoy support jobs.. it's a bit silly for people to do something they don't enjoy just for a vague chance at being a melee down the road.. by the time you level GEO and get into one high-end event, the rest of the melee are another tier ahead of you and you're still not melee-capable. There are a lot of problems facing FFXI atm, and a realistic assessment cannot just wave them away like that. If someone reactivates and tries to catch up, even an intelligent player with help, they're quickly going to be overwhelmed and in many cases even their own linkshell won't let them bring their existing DD. Shout plasm is gone, not that grinding that was great to begin with. The DEX update already made T6 a joke. August update will make it even easier, with the skill. It's still going to be just as hard to get a melee spot though, because there are many incentives by the game to bring only top tier DPS. On top of that, if we're going to look at realistic problems, a taru/mithra/hume melee will always be more of a downgrade to setup than a 20% DPS drop. That's been brought up numerous times, but SE still refuses to address it. Except.. you aren't expected to have 2012 gear. You're expected to have 2013 gear. If you want to go a melee job to any modern shout, you better already have at the very least a delve weapon, your delve armor, and a lot of invested airlixirs. Don't get me started on the *** who think the fact they wasted 10m on a temporary R15 weapon means everyone else needs to, either..
Quote:
Nobody wants to log on the game and waste time. Bringing some guy whose gear comes from 2009 is like bringing a leech. Old content is easy, you only need 2 friends to do it, get some and then come back to the endgame when you're ready. There's also ls on all servers offering services for those unable to get wins by themselves.
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