Food For Thought

i said is likely to never reach the point, not incapable

needing a few months and a lot of luck to return to playing the same class you always played is bad design

And I don't buy into this in the slightest. Your feelings aside, I'm a perfect example of just how easy it is to go from a mediocre mage-only player to one of the best DD on whatever server I happen to be on* with a minimal amount of reading and a lot of sociability. Your chances of success increase by several orders by just being a pleasant person to have around

*Not intended to sound pompous; I'm not special, this game is just easy

I know. But still, catching up now is easier than it's ever been.

You've never quit for an extended period of time and you played long enough to farm full AF3 for every single job. You socially network heavily, rapidly jump between linkshells, and suck up to anyone who will help you advance. You're smart enough to use a spreadsheet. Obviously you're capable of gearing a decent melee.

I fail to see how that's even remotely comparable to someone trying to progress through all the tiers of content without help.

A taru will never be one of the best DD on any server.

Admittedly, if game content continues this way gearing will turn into a race. If your pc breaks or you go on vacation for a month you'll have a lot of stuff to go through to catch up again if vertical progression is too fast. And personally I find this concept a bit discouraging, I don't like this direction much.

So racist.

So true.
now pretend you don't have a network of friends that are willing to take you to things you aren't adequately geared for, because many new/returning players don't

obviously catching up is easy if you have the support of a competent group, my friends 3 months old chars are already better dd than 99.5% of the server

I quit for quite a while before returning during the level cap increases, I've been playing with the same three core players for at least the last four years, and you seem to be confusing networking with making friends.

You of all people are aware that I'm prepared to make decisions that stand to lessen my chances of advancing. Interpersonal relationships are infinitely more important to me than what falls into my inventory.

I don't see how you can think you're a good example of catching up, you've had every job leveled and skilled since forever. You've geared every job as the content went. You're 100/100 AF3+2, you were working on every emp for completionism, and you take the time to learn your jobs. There are a great many good things about you as a player, but to pretend you're in the disadvantaged group is laughable.

And yea, I'm aware you made a rational downgrade jumping to Epi for Dray. I'm not trying to bash you as a person(or a player), I just don't think you're making a realistic assessment of what someone starting from scratch has to go through.

If you're decent at social skills and ask nicely, you should be able to find a whm to help you get ***in abyssea.
Or level BST and derp it all like I did. Either way, it works out.
Then once you are decently geared, make some Voidwatch shouts. It'll probably take all day for a couple weeks, but you should be able to get it done to the point where you get what you need.
Once you've geared competently enough and read up on your role in endgame stuff, make some delve KI shouts and plasm farm. It'll be hard, but you'll get it eventually.
I've obviously greatly oversimplified it, but if you want to gear your DD, it's not as inaccessible now as it was when linkshells did EVERYTHING and shout groups were unheard of.

I'd probably skip VW altogether at this point, low interest and very few decent things left in it. Just farm bayld and wear some of that.

I claim no disadvantage, but I had nothing but a garbage RDM when I came back during Visions. I progressed because I'm not a complete derp and I chose sociability over belligerent solitude

Yeah, good point. I'll admit I was thinking more about mage gear than melee with the VW mention. xD

Yeah theres 4 different types of players on odin and generally never mix.

1) The elites and botters they never invite anyone outside the ls/group they are in.
2) the good players though arent good enough to join in with the elites and botters. They are efficient at the jobs they play and have good gear but still get refused.
3) the lowbies and noobs people who are new or just plain doing it wrong some of which dont take criticism very well.
4) jponry wont invite anyone who isnt jp.

Its sad really but hey what happens happens and no matter what SE does with content it isnt going to change community issues. I still havent got a T6 win dispite being well geared and knowing what to do joined pug groups and everyone of them failed....

Part of the problem stems from the fact that the majority of players that clearly need help refuse that help or advice with a snarky attitude or just doesn't listen, or even doing something incredibly stupid. (Ragnarok has recently done two Yumcaxs both in 10hr+ capacity over the last week. One of them I participated in where the PLD I was healing had a grand idea of "wiping the entire zone" to stop Yumcax from regenerating and promptly MPK'd the entire zone) It becomes a turn off to try to help these people at all to avoid frustrations all across the board. This in turn is a vicious cycle because genuine new players looking to improve don't get the help they need to succeed in this game because the majority of 'elite' players are jaded in that regard.

You can say all you will that anybody can duo or trio Abyssea at this point in time, but take any trio of friends who just started the game together who attempt Abyssea and they will probably fall flat on their face instantly. There are certain mechanics in Abyssea that need to be explained (Proccing weaknesses) and certain Atmas are absolutely mandatory to be successful in a low man environment (Minikin for healers comes to mind. RR is nice for DDs, but not entirely mandatory to be successful). This also means this new group of friends either needs to get a zone boss clear or the Cruour to buy their first Lunar Abyssite. How do new players expect to do this without at least some help from a higher tier veteran player?

Also, because of the age of the game, a lot of mechanics in FFXI aren't stream lined compared to other MMOs. Stats aren't linear. STR = more DPS in other MMOs, but in FFXI, you have to think "Do I need more STR or DA/YA/QA or Store TP" to get a higher DPS value? FFXI is also the only MMO I can think of where gear swapping is a must as most conventional MMOs in this day have single pieces of gear per slot that improves all stats with each progressive piece of gear improving on that baseline. Being able to find a proper explanation can be difficult because most people who have been playing this game for a long period of time know that certain stats in their gear are "must-haves" but that isn't fundamentally clear to any new player. Things like x-hit, haste, multi-attacking, and gear swapping tend to not exist in other MMOs. If a new player's primary experience is with those MMOs, of course they're going to be very confused.

All in all, this leads to questions new players SHOULD be asking about and veteran players going "What? Are you an idiot? This is tbe best way to do it!" more often then not without a proper explanation as to WHY that is the case because perhaps this veteran player has had bad experiences in the past trying to explain optimal gear sets/techniques to a different new player.

The game itself is new player friendly in terms of acquiring EXP needed to achieve the next level. But finding a proper channel for information is a bit difficult as the OF isn't exactly a bastion of information and the fact that third party tools are an absolute must to be as optimal as possible in any given situation. If players in WoW are having a hard time understanding a skill rotation, reforing their gear, and socketing and enchanting properly, I can't even begin to fathom where this new player will find any proper help on FFXI as the game is infinitely more complicated then WoW is. And the community certainly doesn't help in that regard because of the vicious cycle stated above thanks to new players who think, to put it bluntly, they are "the ***".

People are busy. The same guy has been shouting for ironclad smiter every weekend for 3 weeks here to try to get his DRK body seals. He's offered gil, begged, etc.

Spending 3-4 hours to get one +1 is not time efficient. Nobody's arguing that nolifers can get ***done.

lol

back then the soloable gear was good enough to DD vs ***because alliances used a dozen dd instead of 6

If it takes you 3 hours to kill a +1 mob on BST, you're doin it wrong >.>
ESPECIALLY with the BST upgrade they just did.

And when I referenced the era when linkshells did everything, I meant back then catching up was harder, because unless you were in a decent linkshell or had a ***ton of gil, you weren't getting the best gear.

I'd assume it takes about 10 minutes. Someone who's soloing abyssea seals doesn't have a level 115 weapon to upgrade their pets with. Looking at the average seal droprates, and factoring for procs, 18-24 kills is a pretty low end estimate for 8 seals still.

'Catching up' is irrelevant unless not catching up locks you out of content, and at present it does. At 75, this was an acceptable TP set:

Maneater/Juggernaut | Fire Bomblet
W.Turban | Chivalrous Chain | Brutal | Suppa
Haubergeon | dusk gloves | Rajas | woodsman
Amemet+1 | Swift Belt | those acc pants from toau | dusk ledelsens

I would be ok with having that in my alliance at 75. I would not be ok with having perle trash in my alliance at 99. There's 0 denying the standards have risen.

The only things held to a high standard these days are fracture bosses and T6, maybe Legion?
There's plenty of stuff to do until then.

But man, we're seriously off the original point here, lol.

I have been converting half my boss plasm into Airlixir+2 and sending them to people on my server who are behind but obviously making an effort to catch up (instead of bitching/blaming everyone else).

So if you are behind on Fenrir maybe you should check your delivery box?

The original point is that player standards have made WoW inaccessible and they're apt to do the same to FFXI. As such, this is very relevant to the original point. Once again, you just have no clear argument and are spewing random feels instead of prepared points.

The same unrealistic standards are frequently applied to nyzul, plasm farm, delve clear, and in some cases even simpler things.

Oh lawd, here we go.
I didn't realize we were arguing.

I just have SO MANY EMOTIONS over this topic because vagina guys!

A two-sided discussion generally exists to establish a point. By contradicting someone, you enter yourself into an argument. On forums, everyone can read everything said. You should be able to defend your point, else there's no sense posting it in the first place.

You have all the right in the world to say "But noooo, Thorny, it's really easy to catch up!". I just have all the right in the world to point out the glaring flaws in your examples.

To which I suggested make your own shouts that are intelligent to what's needed. Usually those "DELVE DD ONRY" NNI's are going to be a failure, because they obviously don't know what they need to make that event a win, and are instead just assuming throwing Bereavers at it guarantees a win.

So sharing opinions automatically enters you into a debate? You must be fun to have coffee with.

You shout, someone checks you, they see your gear isn't impressive, they don't go unless they're desperate.

blatantly contradicting something said by someone else generally enters you into a debate, yea

welcome to online forums!

Is this really a thing? Hunting shouters down and checking them before you respond to the shout?

Yell from Jeuno, hidden in some random shop! Now you can invite people from everywhere, they won't notice you until it's too late!

I would never join a shout before checking the person shouting, or knowing them by reputation. My linkshell members do the same. If you don't know someone, you want an idea if their group is going to fail or not.

Some people may make considerations for up-and-coming players, and many will not be critical of mage gear, but people absolutely will check before joining.

Just like a leader won't invite a low DPS player, why would someone join a group led by one?