Why Are Aeonics Worth So Many Points?

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Why are Aeonics worth so many points?
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By Afania 2017-06-18 21:41:39
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
From a RNG perspective, I'm quite impressed with the Arma AM3+Camouflague in white damage over WS scenarios. But if I'm using Last Stand, its gonna be the Fomalhaut all day. That weapon is incredibly broken among the aeonics, I would argue top 3. (BRD and RUN the other two in my opinion) Arma to me, in terms of a RNG's eyes, seems like the middle ground between a foma and gastra- the power and correct delay to be effective for physical weaponskills/TP buildup and some extra macc and that agi boost for helping its TF numbers reach a gastra's.

He mentioned dp so I thought he was talking about COR only. RNG has massive dead aim so they get more out of arma, that's not the case for COR.

If dp doesn't generate MAB bullets fomalhaut will probably be COR's most useful and versatile weapon, you just happened to need dp for the bullet.
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By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2017-06-18 21:45:38
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Masa is great when you have AM up and you have amnesia!
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-06-18 21:54:00
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Afania said: »
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
From a RNG perspective, I'm quite impressed with the Arma AM3+Camouflague in white damage over WS scenarios. But if I'm using Last Stand, its gonna be the Fomalhaut all day. That weapon is incredibly broken among the aeonics, I would argue top 3. (BRD and RUN the other two in my opinion) Arma to me, in terms of a RNG's eyes, seems like the middle ground between a foma and gastra- the power and correct delay to be effective for physical weaponskills/TP buildup and some extra macc and that agi boost for helping its TF numbers reach a gastra's.

He mentioned dp so I thought he was talking about COR only. RNG has massive dead aim so they get more out of arma, that's not the case for COR.


If dp doesn't generate MAB bullets fomalhaut is probably COR's most useful and versatile weapon, you just happened to need dp for the bullet.


Agreed- just wanted to point out the incredible versatility of the foma...rare to see a legendary weapon equippable by more than one job, and actually be great for both of them.
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2017-06-18 21:56:50
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Aeonic Shield is king of backtanking physical mobs !
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By Asura.Xenomorph 2017-06-18 22:19:56
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Asura.Saevel said: »

And please stop looking at ODT crits, that's the same as "eyeballing" damage. On SAM your crit rate is about 10~15% (5 base + 5 merits + 0~5 through gear) on anything worth a damn. That gives you 5~7 "super crits" out of 100 swings and approximately 25~30 WS's depending on how slow you are to hit the WS macro.


Sitting at 13% crit rate in gear alone so that's a little dated since Su3 came out. We look at the ODT (Crits or non-crits) because that's what pulls it ahead of Doji in those fudo spams. If it's able to not only catch up to but also pull ahead given Doji's high base damages, it's not just speculation because it's definitely noticeable.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-06-18 22:27:22
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
sooo.... i should make a Doji vs wasting my time camping shitty NMs like Buburimooooooo for Masa? Just tell me now, I'm already regretting this decision t o start.

Do you have a group that can do Aeonics? Masa is the "best" for pure Fudo spam, but as I've discussed above it's not a very significant difference. Masa users like to scream about it because their "real SAM's" and it somehow makes them better then those "scrub SAMs" who just got a Dojin. Ultimately Sephiroth use's it and that's why they want to do it.

But i wanna be like Seph...ii....roth....
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 Asura.Syto
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By Asura.Syto 2017-06-18 23:01:11
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
sooo.... i should make a Doji vs wasting my time camping shitty NMs like Buburimooooooo for Masa? Just tell me now, I'm already regretting this decision t o start.

Do you have a group that can do Aeonics? Masa is the "best" for pure Fudo spam, but as I've discussed above it's not a very significant difference. Masa users like to scream about it because their "real SAM's" and it somehow makes them better then those "scrub SAMs" who just got a Dojin. Ultimately Sephiroth use's it and that's why they want to do it.

Masa is also pretty easy to get. Aeonics and Empys like Masa have been discussed and debated for a while. There are some very good points made on both sides. I just have "feeling" it's better than what you think. I will look into this more and hope to bring more dedicated SAMs like Ejinn and Llewellyn into this. I'm just encouraging discussion on this probably in another thread that look at this in better detail. You and Ejinn don't agree on many points but, I think Masa has a bit more of an edge than you think.

Regardless, just the very fact that we definitely agree Doji has such powerful potential and performance means it shouldn't be scaled to far below on the point scale. Even still, they have to look at the point-to-point worth by considering the current ease of acquisition

I know you think SMN burn method will eventually get nerfed in some way. Just imagine if it didn't. You notice how fast they are pumping these out. If this continues indefinitely, would your stance on achievement point worthiness change much?
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By Asura.Lokimaru 2017-06-18 23:40:49
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Tbh I think it says enough that when you don't have a group for aeonics, you can still make a relic, mythic, or empyrean.

So sure, whether points are useful or not, aeonics are fine being at their current value.
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By Asura.Echandra 2017-06-18 23:50:05
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Well that didn't take long to spill into a which REMA is best thread?

Since we're going overboard, maybe we should include proof and screenshots to show "when" you go the weapon to better gauge the value?

If you got your relic back when you had to pay for an hourglass, sponsor runs, and fight to keep people from jacking your zones, did the trials when it was 10,000 WS kills, and ADL killed your ally and people ninja lotted the marrow, it's worth more. Also, if you used SMN on ADL, you lose points b/c of 206-17 butt-hurt.

If your mythic was achieved back when there was only 4 measly zones to farm, and you had to bring hi-potion tanks to live because you didn't get magic until the 5th floor, and you somehow did it legitimately or missed the ban-hammer o'doom, your mythic is worth more.

Your empyrean should be worth more if you made it during the period that your NM you had to kill 8x has a 36 hour window never popping until you finally had to go pee, and some random moron just LOL ran by and killed it because it was there. For the trophy when there was only one ??? to fight 50 people for, and for voidwatch before one-shot LOL clusters you had to make shout PUG with a drk who screwed the lights spamming resolution to win the parse so you never got cinders or dross.

If you are just now getting your rank in coalition missions, or waited until too weak WKR threw HP bayld at you, then diminish the value of the ergon and don't pat yourself on the back for your nerfed-geo.

If you had to sit around and wait for others to work through figuring out how to kill the mobs so you could swoop in ages later and pound your chest proclaiming your superiority, your Aeonic should be worth less.

Also, if you're from Asura and the majority of your playtime is sent shouting and trolling in Adoulin or Port Jeuno...that's a token achievement that should be added...?
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-06-19 00:02:29
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Asura.Echandra said: »

If you got your relic back...it's worth more.

If your mythic was achieved back when there was only 4 measly zones to farm...your mythic is worth more.

Your empyrean should be worth more if...<sic> more of the same.


If...then diminish the value of the ergon <sic>.

If...your Aeonic should be worth less.

the elipses' simply parse your own words, because it all boils down to an impossibility- you cannot hand out arbitrary quality assigned to the same achievement among various players. Such a system is fraught with errors.

'How about the player who would meet your criteria for a "super valued" empyrean(acheived during initial VW era), but never linked their character to ffxiah/guildwork until 2 years ago, so all the data imported at that moment?' is but one scenario.

'What is the cutoff date that you consider acceptable for "higher valued" Aeonics? Only the first kill on a server; x days after a successful strat is posted on ffxiah; and is a person's 2nd Aeonic worth less because its "easier"' another.

Not to mention you can never prove who truly jumped around Arrapago Remnants II like they had the Wonkavator and who didn't(in terms of trying to determine a mythic's "legitimacy" I mean- I'm aware SE did ban people for this).

A discussion on changing the point values might be legitimate, if a general revamp is possibly in the works, as was briefly mentioned earlier in the thread. But please, let's banish all qualifiers from this. Either you have it, or you don't. Keep it clean.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-06-19 00:05:41
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What do these points actually represent?
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By clearlyamule 2017-06-19 00:23:38
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
What do these points actually represent?
epeen
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By Afania 2017-06-19 02:56:50
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
'How about the player who would meet your criteria for a "super valued" empyrean(acheived during initial VW era), but never linked their character to ffxiah/guildwork until 2 years ago, so all the data imported at that moment?' is but one scenario.

I made my "super valued" empyrean same way as Echandra described(I basically started magian trial as soon as it was out), it's more like ***value every time I hear people talk about Armageddon '_'

If I could get pt invite rate increase by 40% by getting achievement points I would, but realistically, nobody really care about it.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-06-19 08:10:33
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Asura.Xenomorph said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »

And please stop looking at ODT crits, that's the same as "eyeballing" damage. On SAM your crit rate is about 10~15% (5 base + 5 merits + 0~5 through gear) on anything worth a damn. That gives you 5~7 "super crits" out of 100 swings and approximately 25~30 WS's depending on how slow you are to hit the WS macro.


Sitting at 13% crit rate in gear alone so that's a little dated since Su3 came out. We look at the ODT (Crits or non-crits) because that's what pulls it ahead of Doji in those fudo spams. If it's able to not only catch up to but also pull ahead given Doji's high base damages, it's not just speculation because it's definitely noticeable.

..


Masa DMG 308
STR 50 @80% = +40 BDMG (your capped fSTR before this usually)

Dojin DMG 315

Masa ends up 33 BDMG higher then Doji, ends up being something like 730 vs 700 BDMG. Doji's 500 TP Bonus is what makes it put out stronger WS's, about ~24% higher fTP on Fudo's. The end result is Doji being 16~18% stronger Fudo's. Masa relies entirely on procing extra rounds for over TP and to get extra rolls on the ODT to inflate white damage. Those crits add very little total damage due to them being a percentage of a percentage, nice eye candy though. Relic's, specifically Ragnarok, experience the same thing. Procing an ODD on a crit looks bad ***, but overall it's a very small increase to actual damage, on a job with far more crit / CAB then SAM has.

My issue is with the over exaggeration on Emps, specifically Masa, by people who don't know the actual percentage difference. "In a league of their own" belongs to things that have a ~25% gap between them and their nearest competitor. Single digit increases in a very specific situation are just merely "better". Rag vs Chango for example, Rag is definitely better at spamming a single WS at full tilt, better by a margin greater then Masa vs Doji, and yet you don't see me saying "Rag beats everything else it's in a league of it's own".

But hey Sephiroth use's it so it's gotta be best right.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-06-19 08:18:11
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
What do these points actually represent?

Originally they were an indicator of player effort. Back at 75 it would take a lot of effort to get a Relic or Mythic, content was highly time gated and even then you needed a bunch of people for several fights / farming / ect. Then SE raised the level cap and Emps were made, which were easier then RM to make due to Abyssea and it's mega bonus's. Then iLevel made REM's really easy to get just long due to those same time gates, then RoV removed the time games and REM's are super stupid easy to get now. Ergon's are also easy, they just haven't had their time gate removed so your stuck with Imp's restocking time, though if you were smart and ranked up over time and learned how to store excess Imps then it's really easy to get them now. I went from petitioner to legend in Couriers in a single day.

Aeonics were mega hard to get because it required a group of extremely skilled and knowledgeable players with lots of experience and skill to kill all the CL150 content required for it. There is no gil requirement so anyone who's willing to learn and improve themselves is eligible to get one, not just those playing "Crafting Fantasy XI". Then SMN AC burn become mainstream and rendered everything really easy, provided your willing to kick out and alienate most of your LS members. So people who burned a lot of time / gil to Pokemon the REM's don't like that uber newbs are picking up Aeonics and diminishing their AH penis size, which is all it is now.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-06-19 09:05:43
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We're talking about Auction House points, right? That score and number next to people's name that identifies how much stuff they've done? Is that like a leaderboard of some sort?

I actually never knew what it was and never asked long ago, which is why my profile lists the bare minimum, as I don't know how to set it up.
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By eslim 2017-06-19 09:09:33
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can they be downloaded tho ?
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By LennartHK 2017-06-19 09:17:36
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
What do these points actually represent?
They represent a separation of class, which comes down to basic human nature.
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By eslim 2017-06-19 09:25:28
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fukin territorieres..
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By Rooks 2017-06-19 09:30:03
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Aeonics are worth a lot of points because I set the value when they first came out, and I never adjusted it.

As always, the answer involves me being lazy
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By Blazed1979 2017-06-19 09:52:49
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Majesty! you grace our humble thread!
Has his Rookyness's schedule improved?
C'mon dude, I'm sure its just the click of a button :).
I joke. Anyways the thread wasn't meant to put any attention towards admins of the site so much as it was to discuss which Legendary weapons are worth more and MIGHT be reflected some day on the ffxiah.com point system, when his MAJESTY has time to update it.

to chime in on the above "what do points mean" - a pure and true representation of one's IRL penis size, status and class.
Peasants
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By Rooks 2017-06-19 09:55:44
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Blazed1979 said: »
Majesty! you grace our humble thread!
Has his Rookyness's schedule improved?
C'mon dude, I'm sure its just the click of a button :).
I joke. Anyways the thread wasn't meant to put any attention towards admins of the site so much as it was to discuss which Legendary weapons are worth more and MIGHT be reflected some day on the ffxiah.com point system, when his MAJESTY has time to update it.

Editing the value is easy enough. It hasn't happened because I've 1) got zero time and 2) when I do have time, I'm usually propping guildwork back up, and 3) I can't deploy changes - I gotta package it all up for His Scraggness™ to deploy.

One of the things I've done to my development copy is add an interface for changing ACH values without a deploy, but it's not code I want to deploy without sufficient testing, which is, as you can guess, time-intensive.
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2017-06-19 10:13:39
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Quote:
As always, the answer involves me being lazy

*Blazed being lazy and not being your test bunny
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By eslim 2017-06-19 10:26:07
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 Asura.Syto
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By Asura.Syto 2017-06-19 13:56:06
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Quote:
But hey Sephiroth use's it so it's gotta be best right.


Pssh...Sephiroth was garbage... I use it. So it's gotta be the best.. Remember that! :P
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 Ragnarok.Nanaky
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By Ragnarok.Nanaky 2017-06-19 13:59:08
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Rooks said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
Majesty! you grace our humble thread!
Has his Rookyness's schedule improved?
C'mon dude, I'm sure its just the click of a button :).
I joke. Anyways the thread wasn't meant to put any attention towards admins of the site so much as it was to discuss which Legendary weapons are worth more and MIGHT be reflected some day on the ffxiah.com point system, when his MAJESTY has time to update it.

Editing the value is easy enough. It hasn't happened because I've 1) got zero time and 2) when I do have time, I'm usually propping guildwork back up, and 3) I can't deploy changes - I gotta package it all up for His Scraggness™ to deploy.

One of the things I've done to my development copy is add an interface for changing ACH values without a deploy, but it's not code I want to deploy without sufficient testing, which is, as you can guess, time-intensive.


Also, there are quite a few things besides "adjusting aeonic values" to worry about first I would think! Like being able to add new characters and update mission data etc
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 Asura.Xenomorph
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By Asura.Xenomorph 2017-06-19 14:22:50
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Xenomorph said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »

And please stop looking at ODT crits, that's the same as "eyeballing" damage. On SAM your crit rate is about 10~15% (5 base + 5 merits + 0~5 through gear) on anything worth a damn. That gives you 5~7 "super crits" out of 100 swings and approximately 25~30 WS's depending on how slow you are to hit the WS macro.


Sitting at 13% crit rate in gear alone so that's a little dated since Su3 came out. We look at the ODT (Crits or non-crits) because that's what pulls it ahead of Doji in those fudo spams. If it's able to not only catch up to but also pull ahead given Doji's high base damages, it's not just speculation because it's definitely noticeable.

..


Masa DMG 308
STR 50 @80% = +40 BDMG (your capped fSTR before this usually)

Dojin DMG 315

Masa ends up 33 BDMG higher then Doji, ends up being something like 730 vs 700 BDMG. Doji's 500 TP Bonus is what makes it put out stronger WS's, about ~24% higher fTP on Fudo's. The end result is Doji being 16~18% stronger Fudo's. Masa relies entirely on procing extra rounds for over TP and to get extra rolls on the ODT to inflate white damage. Those crits add very little total damage due to them being a percentage of a percentage, nice eye candy though. Relic's, specifically Ragnarok, experience the same thing. Procing an ODD on a crit looks bad ***, but overall it's a very small increase to actual damage, on a job with far more crit / CAB then SAM has.

My issue is with the over exaggeration on Emps, specifically Masa, by people who don't know the actual percentage difference. "In a league of their own" belongs to things that have a ~25% gap between them and their nearest competitor. Single digit increases in a very specific situation are just merely "better". Rag vs Chango for example, Rag is definitely better at spamming a single WS at full tilt, better by a margin greater then Masa vs Doji, and yet you don't see me saying "Rag beats everything else it's in a league of it's own".

But hey Sephiroth use's it so it's gotta be best right.

Ah I see what you mean, and it's a good point to make. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to my pea brain hehe.
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By Asura.Syto 2017-06-19 15:15:34
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Asura.Xenomorph said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Xenomorph said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »

And please stop looking at ODT crits, that's the same as "eyeballing" damage. On SAM your crit rate is about 10~15% (5 base + 5 merits + 0~5 through gear) on anything worth a damn. That gives you 5~7 "super crits" out of 100 swings and approximately 25~30 WS's depending on how slow you are to hit the WS macro.


Sitting at 13% crit rate in gear alone so that's a little dated since Su3 came out. We look at the ODT (Crits or non-crits) because that's what pulls it ahead of Doji in those fudo spams. If it's able to not only catch up to but also pull ahead given Doji's high base damages, it's not just speculation because it's definitely noticeable.

..


Masa DMG 308
STR 50 @80% = +40 BDMG (your capped fSTR before this usually)

Dojin DMG 315

Masa ends up 33 BDMG higher then Doji, ends up being something like 730 vs 700 BDMG. Doji's 500 TP Bonus is what makes it put out stronger WS's, about ~24% higher fTP on Fudo's. The end result is Doji being 16~18% stronger Fudo's. Masa relies entirely on procing extra rounds for over TP and to get extra rolls on the ODT to inflate white damage. Those crits add very little total damage due to them being a percentage of a percentage, nice eye candy though. Relic's, specifically Ragnarok, experience the same thing. Procing an ODD on a crit looks bad ***, but overall it's a very small increase to actual damage, on a job with far more crit / CAB then SAM has.

My issue is with the over exaggeration on Emps, specifically Masa, by people who don't know the actual percentage difference. "In a league of their own" belongs to things that have a ~25% gap between them and their nearest competitor. Single digit increases in a very specific situation are just merely "better". Rag vs Chango for example, Rag is definitely better at spamming a single WS at full tilt, better by a margin greater then Masa vs Doji, and yet you don't see me saying "Rag beats everything else it's in a league of it's own".

But hey Sephiroth use's it so it's gotta be best right.

Ah I see what you mean, and it's a good point to make. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to my pea brain hehe.

Don't say that bro. You don't have a pea brain. You are a great example of what a SAM should be..

Saevel uses napkin math. Someone has to double check his napkin really quick before we believe him..:P Ejinn will verify... :P
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-06-19 15:22:50
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Asura.Syto said: »
Saevel uses napkin math.
Better than toilet paper math. Otherwise known as "pulling numbers out of your ***" math.
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By Blazed1979 2017-06-19 15:39:30
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Better than toilet paper math. Otherwise known as "pulling numbers out of your ***" math.
That's the kind of math I can work with!
Ukon = last parse x infinity/0 + why did she do it?
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