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ARME Weapons
By Afania 2016-09-08 21:36:00
@Jeanpaul
I was just having this conversation with Snaps over PMs since he was the only one who basically expressed that this information wasn't able to be empirically tested. Mostly due to how situational each weapon can be, weapon type preferences for the jobs that have multiple, some innate misrepresentations of spreadsheets, and playstyle biases. That being said, what do you think should be changed in order to accomodate what you're suggesting? Since the idea is showing each weapon's value in endgame strategies, look at performance based on those strategies.
It would need a list of the popularity of these strategy then. Otherwise ppl may build an anni on RNG thinking it would get them invite to endgame ls but nope we are recruiting for blm sch epeo run Idris geo.
By Verda 2016-09-08 21:49:29
Well, now we get into the topic of leading vs following which I don't have the energy for. I'll sum it up though. Leading is more work, following is less work. Thus most people will follow. Leading has many advantages including an ability to create and set new metas if you're successful. It has the disadvantages of playing mom to a bunch of adults and being a drama preventionist, and never having a moments peace from purple text. Following the main disadvantage is you do have to do what is popular. Personally I'd rather encourage everyone, even those I sometimes lead, to think for themselves and blaze their own path. It creates an open minded give-take environment I tend to do well in. Some don't do well in that, they like to know what is strong, know what is accepted and popular and know the shortest route to a goal and method. I won't say one is worse than the other, just different. Both have their own set of insults people will use "you're a sheep", or "you're arrogant". Neither is accurate imo though. Following is a valid strategy as is leading and open endedness/give take relationships. People get frustrated when they can't have their way, or even if their preferred way is made harder by others. If you buy into following popular trends that frustration is minimized, but you lose a fair amount of choice in doing that. For whatever reasons I am me, I prefer to preserve choice at the cost of work. Sometimes my preferred stuff choices become popular, then for that time, it's easier overall, but the challenges are different.
What is popular will also be different by server. For example, Quetz has a huge very successful pet linkshell to the point people will migrate there if they truly love pet jobs, so I feel like what is even popular will also depend on the company you keep.
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 Bahamut.Baozzer
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Baozzer 2016-09-09 01:20:09
Now for a post pertaining to the OP, i don't think extra duration from BRD mythic is more important than an extra song :D
By Boshi 2016-09-09 01:23:28
Anyways
/equip main "murgleis"
/ja "convert" <me>
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-09-09 01:28:23
Now for a post pertaining to the OP, i don't think extra duration from BRD mythic is more important than an extra song :D Depends on the content, but you can find a discussion regarding peoples' opinions on that in the earlier pages. Personally when I'm bringing BRD, it's often only for SV/CC presong buffs or Troubadour Lullaby, in which case extra duration is definitely ideal. DD songs are typically Honor March/Madx2/Scherzo. 5th song for Minuet is nice, but I bring BRD mostly for the extra accuracy and, if needed, Scherzo; Minuet if not, which Terpander suffices for.
Bahamut.Baozzer
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By Bahamut.Baozzer 2016-09-09 01:46:40
Now for a post pertaining to the OP, i don't think extra duration from BRD mythic is more important than an extra song :D Depends on the content, but you can find a discussion regarding peoples' opinions on that in the earlier pages. Personally when I'm bringing BRD, it's often only for SV/CC presong buffs or Troubadour Lullaby, in which case extra duration is definitely ideal. DD songs are typically Honor March/Madx2/Scherzo. 5th song for Minuet is nice, but I bring BRD mostly for the extra accuracy and, if needed, Scherzo; Minuet if not, which Terpander suffices for.
Very true but now mobs EVA have shot down BRD is a better "main" buffer. Mochi did a successful Melee WoC on first attempt! It was RUN WHM BRD, COR THF DNC BLU WHM GEO (I think lol)
By Verda 2016-09-09 01:47:15
I agree it's content based, in a lot of content though an extra song is worth more than duration. Duration is great for bard one hour durations and lullabies. For typical content (i.e. not stuff that requires brd 1 hour every fight or huge long lullabies), I prefer an extra song.
We were talking earlier too, and discussing blurred harp +1 for lullabies so you get the range of harp but still +4 lullaby, I realize this is for ARME, RMEA or however you prefer to call it but Duardabla has 30% duration and blurred harp +1 has +4 to lullaby (2 from lullaby and 2 to all songs), and harp is usually preferred to lullaby for distance. First has anyone obtained one that can say if lullaby duration with Duardabla or Blurred Harp +1 is greater and second if it was, would that affect your ranking of Daurdabla as an ARME?
By Blazed1979 2016-09-09 01:55:36
Aegis + Excalibur i121 with AM3 up and good regen gear while capping MDT/PDT/DT is going to blow Burtgang out of the water.
Bahamut.Baozzer
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By Bahamut.Baozzer 2016-09-09 01:57:45
Aegis + Excalibur i121 with AM3 up and good regen gear while capping MDT/PDT/DT is going to blow Burtgang out of the water. 121 o.O
By Afania 2016-09-09 02:00:08
Aegis + Excalibur i121 with AM3 up and good regen gear while capping MDT/PDT/DT is going to blow Burtgang out of the water.
I'm kinda curious to know how does regen being that relevant to tanking unless you don't have a healer? If tank lose HP just cure, then cure again when more HP are lost. Not like MP is ever an issue in escha.
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By Asura.Leoheika 2016-09-09 02:06:16
Aegis + Excalibur i121 with AM3 up and good regen gear while capping MDT/PDT/DT is going to blow Burtgang out of the water. 121 o.O
He meant the skill increase when you afterglow a weapon.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-09-09 02:17:46
For typical content (i.e. not stuff that requires brd 1 hour every fight or huge long lullabies), I prefer an extra song. Well yeah, that defeats the purpose of Carn outside of Marcato and desire to be lazy. However, the most common events where I find a BRD in 2016 are where they're making use of their 1 hours.
 Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2016-09-09 02:46:27
We were talking earlier too, and discussing blurred harp +1 for lullabies so you get the range of harp but still +4 lullaby, I realize this is for ARME, RMEA or however you prefer to call it but Duardabla has 30% duration and blurred harp +1 has +4 to lullaby (2 from lullaby and 2 to all songs), and harp is usually preferred to lullaby for distance. First has anyone obtained one that can say if lullaby duration with Duardabla or Blurred Harp +1 is greater and second if it was, would that affect your ranking of Daurdabla as an ARME?
Usually you're using Horde II, which caps out at 4' distance (which both horn and harp reach easily), so no need to prioritize a harp unless you plan on using Horde I a lot.
+1 to a song is 10% duration, so Marsyas>Ghorn/Blurred+1>Daurdabla.
Edit: I never checked Daurdabla (just Blurred+1 and Ghorn), but strangely enough Daurdabla is 5'. So perhaps there are instrument sizes (it's not the skill). It's my skill. I'm not capped.
Edit2: If anyone is curious, Horde I is 4' for horns and 8' for harps.
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By Verda 2016-09-09 02:48:08
For typical content (i.e. not stuff that requires brd 1 hour every fight or huge long lullabies), I prefer an extra song. Well yeah, that defeats the purpose of Carn outside of Marcato and desire to be lazy. However, the most common events where I find a BRD in 2016 are where they're making use of their 1 hours.
That is true, unfortunately. I'm used to running GEO + BRD for some things still (VD Ambu, some BCNM, UNM or most melee setups including my THF), but I can understand if you don't for most content, and for typical BRD endgame 2016 I fully agree with you that's how it's used.
That's why I wondered which instrument people prefer to lullaby with. We actually have someone asking about it in ls and a blurred harp +1 could be shared between different bards, but Daurdabla obviously cannot be, I know some will sleep with aeonic or ghorn too but other bards worry about distance, especially on albumen. Aeonic supposedly gives a very slight longer lullaby than ghorn, but I've never heard anyone say if blurred harp +1 or Daurdabala is a better lullaby duration instrument if range is your concern. I'm guessing since aeonic is 50% duration, Daurdabla is 30% duration and Ghorn and Blurred Harp +1 are +4 effective to lullaby, that Blurred Harp would actually be the best wide area lullaby, and slightly behind aeonic in duration but tied with ghorn? I know it's not necessary to have blurred harp +1, and not everyone uses harp to sleep instead of horn but I was thinking the quickest route to long lullaby bard might actually just be mythic + blurred harp +1, it's just hard to confirm or deny with basically none ever made that I can see :D I figured you might know, if no one else.
Edit: Ok thanks flippant :)
Edit 2: I noticed bg-wiki lists the range as 20', should we change that? I'll be the first to admit I don't know much of the inner cogworks of bard...
Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2016-09-09 03:19:49
Nevermind, it WAS my skill, I must've accidentally looked at the wrong instrument when I was trying skill+ gear. Anyway, it's actually possible (and even probable) that Horde II caps at 8' then. But you'll need a lot more skill.
I'm pretty sure the 20' range thing on BG wiki is just how long you can cast from, but that's obviously inaccurate (and Horde is actually shorter).
As for how songs work, the range is dependent on wind/string skill (+ singing? got mixed results, will need to formally retest); lower tier spells cap at a lower rate, but buff songs all cap at 8'/16' (iirc, been a long time since I had to pay attention). And you're generally going to cap buff songs if your skills are where they should be. I assumed that Horde Lullabies would be capped too, and just worked differently, but apparently not. Based on this, horn and harp probably grow at the same rate, horn just caps at half the distance.
Could give reason to have three sets now; duration, accuracy, range. Well, if we used Horde for anything but T4 NMs. I'll try to test tiers tomorrow.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-09 04:16:48
The range of BRD songs changes according to your skill and the instrument used. String instruments have larger range than Wind instruments.
All 75 era songs (maybe something added later too) caps at the maximum range of 19.9 yalms with string instruments.
Most (all?) of the songs added after that need more skill than we can get atm to reach the 19.9 range.
i.e. you're not reaching 19.9 yalms on Ballad 3 and Horde Lullaby II even if you use a string instrument.
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Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-09 04:21:43
I agree it's content based, in a lot of content though an extra song is worth more than duration. This is unquestionably true.
I think we can hardly rely on different opinions on this, there's very little to be discussed, one additional song > duration, in general.
But as the author of the thread already specified the tier list he compiled is not a "general" one, but a specific list bound to the current situation of the meta game.
In the current situation of end game BRD is semiuseless and it's necessary for a single purpose: sleeping adds on Albumen and Vinipata.
For this type of situation of course Carnwenhan makes a huge difference whereas Daurdabla offers a very negligible benefit, the same could be said for Gjallarhorn though, since you're gonna be sleeping adds using Marsyas for the 10% additional duration it gets over Gjallarhorn.
If in the coming months the meta game will change again and we'll see the rise of BRD again in terms of usefulness, this tier list will change again but at the moment I can only, even if reluctantly, agree that Carnwenhan is definitely more useful than Daurdabla, even more than Gjallarhorn honestly.
For BRD REMAs it should be Carnwenhan >>>> Marsyas > Gjallarhorn >>>> Daurdabla
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Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2016-09-09 04:38:04
The range of BRD songs changes according to your skill and the instrument used. String instruments have larger range than Wind instruments.
All 75 era songs (maybe something added later too) caps at the maximum range of 19.9 yalms with string instruments.
Most (all?) of the songs added after that need more skill than we can get atm to reach the 19.9 range.
i.e. you're not reaching 19.9 yalms on Ballad 3 and Horde Lullaby II even if you use a string instrument.
Thank you for the correction.
String instruments aren't innately more range, though their cap is higher. That's evidenced in the fact that my naked horn/harp had same range.
Is there a source to confirm that Horde can actually go that high? Horn is definitely capping on I at 4 (since II is at same range), and I can't for the life of me get harp to go past 8.
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Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-09 04:54:47
I tested Horde1 vs Horde2 looong time ago. I'm not sure how many yalms Horde Lullaby 1 was reaching with my max skill at that time and string instrument, but it was noticeably bigger than Horde II which, alas, has a pretty short range.
(reason why I still have Horde Lullaby1 macroed. When I need to sleep large groups of mobs for short times to avoid wipes etc that's the lullaby I normally use, with String instrument)
edit:
And you're likely right on String Vs Wind being just higher possible cap and not innate range, I apologize for the mistake.
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Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2016-09-09 05:12:23
Yeah but I'm pretty sure that the Hordes cap long before 19.9, and we can't assume buffs and debuffs have same range.
I tested just in case, but SE's aoe indicator is accurate (sometimes it'll lag behind by a sec though), so it's really easy to check. You probably have better skill+ gear, but even when I bump Horde II on harp from 4' to 6', Horde I sticks at 8'.
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-09 06:05:05
I seriously doubt Horde1 can get to 19.9. Back when I did my tests the AoE indicator wasn't present in game yet so it was a bit harder to check ranges for debuffs (unlike those for buffs, very easy).
I'll check again when I get back home with all the skill gear I have, but all I can remember for sure is that:
1) Horde1 was nowhere close to 19.9
2) Horde1 range was noticeably bigger than Horde2
Again, the skill I had back then was also much lower than the combined skill I have these days.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-09-09 06:15:19
Wow, haven't seen public ls drama of this magnitude in a while!
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I peruse reddit as often as FFXIAH pretty much, and someone asked which RMEA were viable these days. So, I decided to make a tier list...
God-Tier:
GEO: Idris
S-Tier:
WAR: Ragnarok, Ukonvasara
THF: Twashtar
WHM: Yagrush
PLD: Aegis > Burtgang
DRK: Ragnarok, Liberator
BST: Aymur
BRD: Gjallarhorn > Marsyas
RNG: Gastraphetes
SAM: Masamune
NIN: Heishi Shorinken > Kannagi
DRG: Ryunohige > Trishula
SMN: Nirvana
BLU: Almace > Tizona
COR: Death Penalty
PUP: Kenkonken
DNC: Terpsichore > Twashtar
RUN: Epeolatry
A-Tier:
WAR: Chango = Conqueror
THF: Vajra > Aeneas
MNK: Godhands > Verethragna
WHM: Gambanteinn
BLM: Laevatinn
PLD: Ochain
DRK: Apocalypse = Anguta
BRD: Carnwenhan > Daurdabla
RNG: Gandiva > Yoichi, Fomalhaut > Annihilator
SAM: Dojikiri Yasutsuna > Kogarasumaru
NIN: Kikoku
BLU: Sequence
COR: Armageddon = Fomalhaut
PUP: Godhands
DNC: Aeneas
SCH: Tupsimati
RUN: Lionheart
B-Tier:
WAR: Farsha
MNK: Spharai > Glanzfaust
RDM: Murgleis
BLM: Hvegelmir
PLD: Srivatsa
DRK: Caladbolg
RNG: Fail-Not
SAM: Amano
SMN: Claustrum
SCH: Hvegelmir
Everything else is pretty bleh... This list considers job usefulness in the current meta, along with how much the weapon contributes to the job itself. Idris is God-Tier because it affects literally the entire party and essentially delvls anything you're fighting. Anything that is S-Tier I would recommend having if you take the job seriously, anything A-Tier is situationally good, B-Tier will still beat out non-269 weapons in most cases, and anything else will lose to well augmented reisen weapon or is too situational to even matter.
If you disagree with the placement of anything, or think I forgot something I'm curious about other people's opinions of the weapons. Please avoid turning this thread into anything negative about other people or their individual weapon decisions, genuinely just curious what y'all think!
Things we don't need to consider: Difficulty of obtaining the weapon/price
Things we should consider: Overall usefulness of the weapon, if you have x weapon would you still aim to get something better?
All ARME Weapons Format:
WAR: Ukonvasara > Ragnarok > Chango = Conqueror > Farsha > Bravura
THF: Twashtar > Vajra = Aeneas > Mandau
MNK: Godhands > Verethragna > Spharai > Glanzfaust
WHM: Yagrush > Gambentinn > Tishtrya > Mjollnir
RDM: Almace > Murgleis = Sequence > Excalibur
BLM: Laevatinn > Hvergelmir > Khatvanga > Claustrum
PLD: Aegis > Burtgang > Ochain > Sequence > Almace = Srivatsa > Ragnarok > Caladbolg > Excalibur
DRK: Ragnarok = Liberator > Apocalypse > Caladbolg = Anguta > Redemption
BST: Aymur > Guttler > Farsha = Tri-Edge
BRD: Gjallarhorn > Marsyas > Carnwenhan > Daurdabla > Twashtar > Mandau
RNG: Gastrophedes > Gandiva > Fail-Not = Yoichinoyumi = Armageddon = Fomalhaut = Annihilator
SAM: Masamune > Dojikiri Yasutsuna > Kogarasumaru > Amanomurakumo
NIN: Heishi Shorinken > Kannagi = Kikoku > Nagi
DRG: Ryunohige = Trishula > Rhongomiant = Gungnir
SMN: Nirvana > Hvergelmir = Claustrum > Khatvanga
BLU: Almace > Tizona = Sequence
COR: Death Penalty > Armageddon = Fomalhaut
PUP: Kenkonken > Godhands > Verethragna
DNC: Terpsichore > Twashtar > Aeneas
SCH: Tupsimati > Hvergelmir > Khatvanga
RUN: Epeolatry > Lionheart
GEO: Idris > Tishtrya
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