[dev1243] New Job Enhancements: Gifts

i'm not sure what version of WoW you played, but it was always harder than XI to actually raid and make progress back in the day. the whole "WoW was kiddie mode MMO" thing was cute at the time, but outside of competitive fanboy jargon it was completely untrue. I digress though, this is a thread about XI. already had to try hard enough to stifle my XIV thoughts.

XI needs to return to difficult to complete, rewarding to defeat enemies that you can't cap from from in 3 days if you want the easy mode super fast capping to go away. Going and killing rabbits to get 10 attack and access to new equipment does not help remedy the problem, in case you hadn't noticed.

That was 75 cap, when we thought 75 would stay the cap forever. You couldn't solo ANYTHING back then. (aside from god-tier rdms). The game has 100% changed since then. A gain then was a perceived gain FOREVER, it made a difference.

We were STOKED to get minimal gains, because nothing else existed. Now everything you get is trash an update later, it's apples v oranges.

PLD and THF are fine as long as you do like PLD/DNC or something and use 2 swords and full DD. Same with THF. This whole mentality that "If you aren't SAM MNK you aren't getting into a CP party" needs to stop. Again, Woh Gates on rabbits/worms, 2 DDs, maybe 3 depending on your set up, with a healer and 2 trust BRDs you can make 4-5 JP an hour without the double campaign. Stuff in there melts with a skillchain, so utilize it. For example, Fudo to CDC=Light, monster is usually dead or close to it. No excuses, just go and play the jobs you want and don't think you can't.

Did I say MNK and SAM? I'm sure when someone is making a JP party they will hold out for a MNK, SAM, WAR, DRK, DRG, BLU, RNG and NIN before they'd take a THF or PLD as DD.

I just want to remind everyone that you're paying monthly for this ****.

Have fun endlessly grinding trash mobs, for no real reason other than to make easy-tier endgame content slightly easier as you cap out on it in a few days.

The one person per server actually shouting for a CP party will take any job they get a tell from... Since no one gives gave a ***about JP.

NOW You might not, but there was certainly no previous job bias for CP party shouts.

I've never played WoW, but from experience with numerous shell members and randoms who quit/returned it was always the same response: WoW was too easy and rewarding, capped out quickly, got bored. We use to have a saying when someone was quitting; "You'll be back, see you in a month, enjoy WoW".

I agree, we need hard mode events back with small reward ratio. Definitely not Voidwatch type, I don't know of anyone who *** enjoyed that cluster *** of "bum rush enemy in <5 minutes, check chests for elm log, hi-elixir and scroll of cure 5, wait another 5 minutes for some jackass who can't clear the chest, repeat x12 and be disappointed not to get the 0.08% drop rate, but the guy who did is the garbage SAM wearing a polearm and 1/2 his equip slots are empty" system. Balance.

Nothing remedies any problem, because not everyone will ever be happy. Killing stuff in an MMO to use points to upgrade your character/job and giving yourself a sense of accomplishment and time/effort vs. something like Voidwatch where you'd walk away with nothing except a log cabin and enough jewels to make that cave in Aladdin be put to shame, the benefit is as I've said, why people play MMOs. The small gain to improve their characters and have fun, like how old FFXI use to be. Yes it's stupid to kill 10,000 rabbits to get 10 attack or whatever, but it was also *** stupid back in the day having 30-40 people do an event and one person getting rewarded and everyone else having nothing to show for it.

maybe we just have different views, but murdering loads of worms and rabbits in a cave for 2 extra damage on my burst affinity spells and now some ancillary benefit that piggybacks off of that isn't what I'd call feeling accomplished with myself. I'd consider overcoming a formidable target with my friends as an accomplishment, like downing Tojil, Dakuwaqa, and Muyingwa before the skill+ buffs and content nerfs, or clearing multiple boss waves in Mul.

Those, to me, are accomplishments. Not mindless grinding to get small benefits. Probably the same reason I never finished any mythics, I can't bring myself to complete menial tasks over and over and over just to try to fool myself into believing I accomplished anything other than convincing myself to soldier on through the boredom of my 200th salvage/dynamis run and instead went to go kill nael deus darnus or something. I felt a lot more accomplished downing that (sorry, i need something to draw comparison with, XIV just happens to be easiest) because it took me and my group a lot of time coordinating and learning as a group how to deal with the fight. It's the same feeling I got when my LS first beat Tojil, the first NA shell on the server to do so. It isn't a feeling that can be replicated by getting a Job Point Earned message. It isn't something I ever expect XI to give me again. It disappoints me, and seeing the JP system continue to elongate the issue annoys me.

No, I agree with you. I don't like grinding 10,000 enemies for 2 damage increases either, but if SE has taught me anything, it's that they LOVE to surprise you with things like "Well, for those that have 10/10 Burst Affinity you get access to Spike Flail and its the best spell ever" or something stupid. You know what I mean, like how small quests or key items back then no one did really suddenly became necessary, like was it the Shantotto expansion? Needing the Quicksands Cave map? Yeah that was fun. Stuff like that.

I'd also much prefer skill in killing things coming back also. Clearing multiple waves of Legion bosses when most groups couldn't do wave 1, it gave you a sense of teamwork and accomplishment. Same with Dynamis Lord way way back.

Every game has grinding, and to some, they *** love it, bring on nightmare mode, they can't get enough, but others hate grinding and want stuff handed to them. My point stands though, you can't make everyone happy, but FFXI does have something for everyone, otherwise why are people playing in the first place, you know?

Anddd, what's wrong with grinding in an MMORPG?





There are ppl that enjoys hard content and difficult boss, and there are ppl that enjoys grinding easy mobs by spending more time. There's nothing wrong with adding content that requires time instead of skill, at least not in MMORPG. Since the whole point of MMORPG is to keep the players spend as much time as possible. There are still plenty of players in this game that grinds relic after relic, mythic after mythic. I don't see what's wrong with grindfest content.

I suppose. But the people who like the grinds of small things aren't really forced to do raid content, whereas if this new gear is actually good, you are forced to grind at least 50 Jps for every one of the jobs you play. Regardless of how many you already have or whatever, not everyone does, and it's still a consideration. If it was just there as something to do if you want to/have free time/whatever then that's fine. What I don't agree with is making it potentially mandatory.

I prefer a character growth system that stick with the character forever, instead of "toss gear after every month for better things".

I do too. But after they said iGarbage was coming, having no choice. Assumed we'd be going up in level a lot faster than we are. I have no desire to keep obtaining things that can ALL be thrown out at the given time we obtain 129. I require a time frame. So I know how much to bother investing.

1 level 99 = 2,051,350 xp

50 jp = 1,500,000 cp, at a rate atm of 10/1 (without cape bonus) is 15,000,000 xp equivalent so 7 job 99.

get level +1 for a equivalent of 7 job (less if you take cp cape)

That I also agree with, which is another point with SE I hate. They will state something then immediately go back on their word. We have no plans to blah blah then a month later, they have plans and it's in the game. The Excalibur/Enlight issue as an example. Yes they can change their minds on things but they have a terrible habit of doing so.

JP were just "bonuses" and not necessary, but as soon as they were released, for example, BLU has blue points as a catigory, which that alone made them necessary to have, especially with how expensive new spells are and combos. If anything, this Gift system seems more like what JP should've been? x points spent=get some more attack etc, nothing game breaking, just there as bonuses and fun for those that love grinding.

To fix this system, and make it really enjoyable, letting people convert 10 merits=1 JP or so and letting people use JP for any job would really take the heat off of how much people dislike it. There's really no reason for this other than SE saying "NO STOP DISLIKING OUR STUFF, WE KNOW OUR GAME, PLEASE ENJOY OUR VISION OF IT, YOURS IS WRONG."

also increase merit cap, capping out on those before you get even 5 JPs is annoying as ***

Noone ever said this was hard. It has always been at best a test of resolve to finish something grindy. RMEs have never been an indicator of skill,etc.

If someone has no friends to party up with, is undergeared and wants JPs, there is significant things they must overcome to be efficient. In this context, they are 'difficult' to get and provide incentive for the player to improve their gear, their social networking, and knowledge of the job mechanics and optimal play to obtain JPs faster (less grindy).
Everything you do in MMO is grind, to grind for gear, to get better, to make other grinds less grindy and make 'difficult' things easy.

Do the Headwind BC on VD without a PD/SAM SP zerg strategy, its one of the few fights in this game that ignores supertanking mechanics that is quite fun. But hey nobody wants to do anything without PD or SAMs so yeah toss this one back in the 'too easy' bucket.

Nothing in this game will be hard until they make more battle content that ignores supertanking or introduces offtanking or other mechanics aside from delve NM gimmicks.
All delve really did for difficulty was make stunSCH a mandatory party spot and other mechanics were 'bring this job, and not this job'.

Cause bringing 3 Geos and everything blowing SPs is hard, got it.
Cause embrava/PD and sparkles locking in legion was difficult.
Bringing a yagrush whm, stunbots, a clippering PLD and spending millions on panaceas and bringing only RME tier DD was 'difficult'.
Cause building an alliance to cover as many staggers as possible, riding fanatics and dusty wings while fishing for staggers was hard.

Straight up, the "spend merits to increase merit cap" thing was the worst Merit addition they've ever *** added, especially after they gave us FREE ones only a few updates before. No reason we can't have something like 200 merits stored, other than Matsui scared out of his mind people would spam BF fights because adding more than 3 rooms is stressing the Apple IIe computers the game runs on, because they'd rather focus on more important things like mandragora events or goblin firework npcs and chocobo racing additions.

COR has shitty New Job Enhancements: Gifts, wtf SE, wtf.

COR
Magic Attack Bonus Increases magic attack by 2.

NIN
Magic Attack Bonus Increases magic attack by 4.

BLU
Magic Attack Bonus Increases magic attack by 5.

COR
Physical Attack Bonus Increases physical and ranged attack by 5.

BLU and NIN
Physical Attack Bonus Increases physical and ranged attack by 10.

THF and RUN
Physical Attack Bonus Increases physical and ranged attack by 7.

I guess SE doesn't want COR to DD! :D

The people saying "just take a party to woh gates" are missing something. What happens when everyone feels the need to worry about JPs? Are there enough ideal camps to support everyone? I bet there aren't. Welcome back to the days of ToAU where we had to fight to run each other out of colibri camp and Mamool Ja Staging Point and everyone's XP/hour dropped like a stone.

Actually there is no need to worry about that. While in the past woh and dho gates were the only lv120+ camp, now with the hidden cirdas cave area, filled of lv123 mobs, there are enough room for entire alliances. I didnt check inner rakznar areas, but i suppose there, the mobs are 120+ also. So, mobs for grinding, there are a lot. Cirdas is even better as the area is relatively small, so its easier to accomodate 2 or 3 parties killing mobs in hall, so speeding up the process (woh gates, for example, has camps here in there, so its hard to split parties.

About the new jp addition, i would say, lets wait. Its SE nature to give good things at high price at start, then wait 6 months, and start gimping till the point its not big deal for everyone. Its a bit unfair that, in this case, instead favoring the actual best players to get the bonus before everyone else, it will actually benefit the boters, but it doesnt mean, in the future, everyone wont be in same place.

For now, i will just call *** everyone saying jp can become a must.

First of all, to jp become even a minimal necessary, it would be necessary to have content where players are at edge of failing/wining so the extra bonus will become decisive to win. While incursion is the only event high level, very few actually want to do high level, and nowaday, people who want to do incursion prefer to do lower level incursion instead aiming high level and stronger parties. After all, the reward is the same. Or people think we gonna ask job point to do delve, merited battlefield, low level incursion or unity? So, before jp being minimally necessary, new content would be need to be added, and would need to be hard. But there is a problem creating hard events nowaday, because anything hard would require to develop content for fully mythic parties, what inst what SE wants, it wants content accesible to every plyer, whats logic. With delve it was easier, as you kill all rem and everyone can have same best weapon, and new content can be create to those oatixur players, for example, back then. Now is not the case. Mythics are alive and kicking, ergon also, but those are still restrict to very few players, and cant be used as paramters.

Second, asking job points can be analyzed similar to market. You can ask 10k for a single currency all you want, but will you sell your currency for 10k? The same: you can ask players with capped jp, will you invite a full party of player with capped jp? The answer is no. While boter wants to pass the idea "everyone bots", thats false. Obviously, the minority bots, and those minority are normally inside their own coolkids ls, so they arent even available to general people. The coolbotkids can walk with capped jp, but any person that ask people with jp will soon see how retard some demand and reduce their requirements. Cmon, guys. People take time even to fill a tojil run in some servers, without any specific requirement aside basic ones, do anyone really think jp will be anything necessary before a massive nerf in gain rate, or even a new abyssea with cp instead exp?

Now, if you want to be a cool kid tomorrow, nothing is more fair to deal with this huge time sink its jp today.

Do Incursion 123 and kill fodder if camps ever become that bad. I did this a few times for meriting for BF, it's not bad and stuff dies pretty quickly. Woh Gates etc is better but this is a viable option if all optimal camps are taken. Also, Woh Gates can support a few parties; you don't need 20 mobs per party, depending on kill speed, maybe 10 tops.

Idk mang, what is hard right now in FFXI, is finding the motivation to pay the subscription fee.

Pretty damn hard tbh.

Also, to those saying "we just had 2 weeks of double CP," what part of special event do you not understand? It'll be a year before we see that again, IF we do at all. This is not the common experience people will have when farming CP.

The only accomplishment from completing them is, like I said, feeding yourself a false pretense of accomplishment for having gone through as many hoops constructed of menial repetitive tasks. I think we're in agreement on this one though.



You're confusing difficulty with artificial difficulty. There's nothing difficult about soloing JPs, you can do it on lv 100 mobs outside of adoulin. It just takes longer. It isn't a challenge, it's a test of how long you're willing to go before saying *** it and moving on because you can be spending your time on more productive things... like idk... making friends and getting better than AH gear so you aren't soloing chapuli in ceizak for JP or whatever scenario we're using for this friendless miscreant who for some reason is finding JP grinding to be difficult.



This is a good example of the opposite end of the spectrum: overtuned fights aimed at forcing certain "godmode" strategies. I'd argue it's another form of artificial difficulty, but that is a point of contention. Things like Kam'lanaut's Light Blade hitting for 15k without mitigation or Mithras ignoring conventional hate mechanics while hitting like trucks with multihit WSs isn't what I'd call a fair competition; it forces you into a corner and expects you to use certain strategies to complete it. Once you employ those strategies, how difficult is it? What strategy would you use for the given example that would make the fight difficult to complete but not unfair? I'm willing to hear about it.



Stungun SCH got your panties in a bunch? Ok. Let's see the stungun SCH kill pre-nerf/skill Tojil by themselves without the DDs, healers, and support all also performing their jobs to a high capacity. It wasn't about stunners being made important (this happened before Delve ever came out, fyi), it was about coordinating the entire group to successfully kill the boss and the other NMs in the allotted timeframe. But hey, if your stunner solo'd delve then good for him.



I'm sure the groups riding level 138+ had their GEOs do this all by themselves and it had nothing to do with group coordination and practice.



Again you seem to be missing the point in everything. It's about group coordination and every player doing their part to achieve a goal. In this case, achieving more than a couple boss waves in Legion required more than just meds, PD, and stunners (assuming you needed stunbots is pretty laughable anyway, because you didn't). You weren't achieving very many waves without a solid group working cohesively. That's where the difficulty and achievement comes in.


[/quote]

you weren't beating something like botulus rex by spamming fanatics and dusty wings and spamming melees at it, which is one of the couple fights I'm referring to.


You seem to be in that 90% that I mentioned, and are blinding yourself by labeling strategic mainstays as making things "easy", when that couldn't be further from the truth. Putting together points of strategy and executing them to complete a challenging fight is the important part; getting an entire group to work together as a unit to take down something difficult is the point. You can lambast stunning and whatnot all you want, but executing a successful Tojil clear was by no means easy when delve first came out, or else EVERYONE would have done it. You're on Valefor. You know exactly what I mean when I say that wasn't even remotely close to the case.

There are tons of camps (and new area was added last update) noone has even bothered trying alternate camps or setups yet which might be even better than Woh.

on Valefor JP players actually do free roaming incursion party (avoiding NMs) for merits and cp, i was quite amused how quickly they get a full alliance of 18 for this.
They any job/subjob combo and run the entire 45minutes killing trash. It almost feels like you're doing walk of echoes.

Also on my server max incursion level is 134 cause no1curr about going any higher because its straight up tedious and blowing SPs for more coffers isnt worth the aggravation (and /eyeroll at bragging rights for going higher)

Yeah, the CP gain isn't as good, but allows you to alliance merit etc and the "camp" is never taken. It's an option if Adoulin areas ever become sky/bhaflau crowded.

Also that Head Wind strategy, PLD tank works, just have them claim everything and sentinel etc and you pick stuff off one by one. No need for a PD SAM zerg.

A solid group working cohesively able to do harder CP areas and cp chain 100+ is not much different than aiming to burn through more Mul waves.
You just hate cp and don't ever want to kill anything thats not a 'boss' monster, just say so.

For others cp parties are an optimization metagame and the challenge is to optimize output and minimize the 'grind'.

The problem is that one can't both reliably grind cp and do end game content at the same time. If the end game content rewarded cp close to match a cp pt, there wouldn't be this many complaints about the jp system.

Considering the age of the game and the pretty much ossified playerbase, we are already too old to dedicate so many hours into grinding cp while also doing end game content during the rest of the day. FFXI has massive amounts of stuff to do but we have very finite time to fit all these grind demanding content into our play time.

Yes, grinding is the very nature of an MMO, but here, we have to choose between grinding cp and items. Items improve both your character and profit, which in turn improves your character even more. It isn't hard to see why people choose grinding for items over cp.

Edit: Also, sorry but I don't see anytime soon that people would gladly accept any job they come across for a cp pt. If anything, they will be even less open to job variety, because that superior gear thing sounds like it will make partying for cp mandatory and people will want to get there even faster than before. It is completely against their initial vision of cp bonuses being only very slight improvements you would obtain without going out of your way while doing some other content.

please do feel free to tell me what's hard about chaining XP mobs, because I've been doing that since 75 and it wasn't hard then either. you don't even need 6 people in the party to achieve this, you can have 3 people and 3 NPCs.

are you going to bring anything other than strawmans and misinformed argumentatives to the table or are we done here?