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How would you balance the jobs?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-09-17 12:53:28
Quote: Oh and Ccl is the pChan of the SAM group, so take everything he says about SAM with a large grain of salt. SAM can freely use /WAR for berserk which puts it on the same level as WAR/SAM and only slightly behind DRK/SAM. DRK can go /WAR but that -50% defense will get them killed on anything you want that much attack on, not to mention Soul Eater and Diabolic Eye are both suicide moves. That's DRK's biggest issue, their survivability is extremely limited if they actually use anything other then Last Resort. If you have -50% Defense on Drk you are doing it wrong. Drk survivability is actually not bad at all, they only sport -15% more defense than Sam does as /war. Diabolic Eye isn't suicide as mentioned. Souleater is situational.
 Ragnarok.Afania
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2822
By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-09-17 12:57:56
What she means is that if the cor goes /whm, most of the time you're better off bringing another job entirely to the event.
*shrug*
We win things, so I don't argue I guess.
I'll take not being bitched at by everyone over anything sensible.
You can win things with most setup though. From pure support POV, GEO is a lot more versatile as a mage/backline support job.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-17 12:59:21
What she means is that if the cor goes /whm, most of the time you're better off bringing another job entirely to the event.
*shrug*
We win things, so I don't argue I guess.
I'll take not being bitched at by everyone over anything sensible.
You can win things with most setup though. From pure support POV, GEO is a lot more versatile as a mage/backline support job.
We take a GEO.
It's...eh. I've actually got to get going to an appointment so I can't go into it further right now.
It's not ideal in my mind, but most people are content with it and we get drops. I just like things to go smoothly, and part of that is not hassling people because I can't be just the exact job combo I want.
It's just grating from time to time.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-17 13:00:43
Due to the way JA delay works, SATA are good but in an alliance where the mob is turning every second; they're hard to execute, and I thought TA doesn't work across alliances. Aura steal is nice, when it freakin works, but it's tied to a 5min ability; and DRK gets Absorb-Attri which is better than aura steal because it's a quicker recast.
If they scale back SC damage to be what it was before they upped it, but just allowed SC to be unresisted, SAM would be a lot more balanced. No need for SCs to be doing 30k damage ever. Reports of SAM 1shotting Wopket with a 4 or 5 step 99,999 light skillchain is mindblowingly bad game design.
Obviously it's not one shorting if it's a 5 step skillchain, but building skillchains is what SAM is supposed to do. Wopket has a slashing weakness. Try that on a mob that's resistant to slashing or light elemental damage. Exploiting mob weaknesses is the cornerstone of ffxi, bud. It sounds like you have a grudge against SAM more than you have legit complaints about the job balance.
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 13:07:29
Virtually was one shotting considering the previous weapon skills/skillchains were taking off fractions, but the 99,999 took off more than 80% most likely. Do you really think it's intentional for any job under any circumstance to deal 99,999 damage outside of a brew?
By volkom 2014-09-17 13:13:01
why not bring balance by making all the jobs unbalanced?
-Like I want to see warrior be that crazy berserker with the 2hand axe double attacking nonstop; dealing tons of damage.
-I want to see monks be like they're kung fu fighting with attacks as fast as lightning (like a monk attacking as if they had a kraken club while hundred fisting)
-Want to see whitemages being able to grant cures with buffs. Like I want to be healed and given stoneskin+haste all within the same spell. and ailment immunities
-I want to see blackmages to be crazy powerful. with their spells having a chance to insta kill mobs or cause additional effects. Like if something got hit with a fire spell, would be cool if the monster got hit with a burn effect.
-I want to see thieves make it rain with loot with chances to give themselves hidden loot drops from kills. auto crits from behind
-I don't want paladins to be a brick wall. I Want them to be a moving fortress. more defense and hate control. with more uses of divine magic
-I want to see dark knights be the embodiment of evil. Let them steal attack/defense from their foes. Give them more dark magic abilities that can focus on damage or more beneficial buffs
-Rangers~ give them a buff for not moving while shooting
-Samurai. give them constant regain and party buffs to boost TP bonuses and TP effects.
-Make ninja's 1hr not be like dirka dirka. change it so they do insane amounts of damage per hit. Also give them bonus effects while fighting at night and in dark weather. Like increased haste/attack/defense/evasion/mab/acc etc. cuz you know...ninja's fight from the shadows and at night sorta thing.
-Battle bards?
-Give dragoons a chance to supersize their wyvern so its like a giant flying wyvern. and let them ride it instead of a chocobo. and pet commands
-Allow summoners to summon bahamut and/or allow two summons at the same time. for fun
-Beastmasters should be able to raise their own monsters. Imagine a beastmaster bringing his/her own fafnir to a battle.
-Corsairs should have auto barrage when wielding hexaguns. let them cast 3-4 buffs.
-Make blue mages turn into psychflayers when they cast too many spells in succession.
-Puppetmasters should have like a gundam version of their automaton. Like power armor.
-Dancers need to be more exotic
-Scholars should have a buff that 'targets the monster's weakness' and all attack of that type increases like crazy.
and have all jobs be able to provide like first aid spells. Like raise/paralyna/stona and other low level healing ailment spells .
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-09-17 13:13:25
What she means is that if the cor goes /whm, most of the time you're better off bringing another job entirely to the event.
*shrug*
We win things, so I don't argue I guess.
I'll take not being bitched at by everyone over anything sensible.
You can win things with most setup though. From pure support POV, GEO is a lot more versatile as a mage/backline support job.
We take a GEO.
It's...eh. I've actually got to get going to an appointment so I can't go into it further right now.
It's not ideal in my mind, but most people are content with it and we get drops. I just like things to go smoothly, and part of that is not hassling people because I can't be just the exact job combo I want.
It's just grating from time to time. Geo is insane, I can't imagine not taking a Geo to any end game event right now, they are just too broken. ***for Incursion we even take two (yay for outside party Geos still giving debuffs and thus being just as good as inside party geos).
Also my last post probably wasn't very clear on defense:
Samurai will have -25% Defense 3/5 Minutes
Drk/war will have -25% Defense 3/5 Minutes, -40% Defense 3.50/5 Minutes.
Drk/sam will have -15% Defense 3.50/5 Minutes.
War/sam will have -15% Defense 3.34/4.10
Drg will have no -defense because they sub Sam as far as I know.
So if you REALLY care about -defense, take a drg!
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 13:21:56
Dragoons get +20% defense actually from Wyvern just being alive. They sub WAR now on content where they are at capped haste or where the mob doesn't dispel. Because of Wyvern buffs, DRG is at perma +20% defense while Wyvern is alive; with /WAR they're at -5% defense for 3/5 min.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-09-17 13:25:08
Or that, I was informed that Drg still subbed Sam even with the lack of benefit from Hasso, probably was wrong.
 Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-09-17 13:25:19
Due to the way JA delay works, SATA are good but in an alliance where the mob is turning every second; they're hard to execute, and I thought TA doesn't work across alliances. Aura steal is nice, when it freakin works, but it's tied to a 5min ability; and DRK gets Absorb-Attri which is better than aura steal because it's a quicker recast.
If they scale back SC damage to be what it was before they upped it, but just allowed SC to be unresisted, SAM would be a lot more balanced. No need for SCs to be doing 30k damage ever. Reports of SAM 1shotting Wopket with a 4 or 5 step 99,999 light skillchain is mindblowingly bad game design.
So overwhelm is OP and easy to use but SATA is hard ? ok.
Ragnarok.Afania
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2822
By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-09-17 13:30:09
But yeah dispel happy mobs are the bane of cor. The more you need to roll the less desirable you are as you're also losing tons of dps.
FYI, it is possible to constantly reapply buffs in dispel heavy events like Incursion as a backline COR/WHM. Just keep rolling until you get a 11 on a roll and keep that on yourself, if DD buff gets dispelled in chat log just run in and do the DD roll, run back to backline and bust that DD roll to get rid of it, then reapply DD roll again when it's dispelled then bust it to get rid of it again. You need a lot of erase in incursion so /WHM can help erase as well.
It's just that GEO can do the exact same thing but much better at it.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-09-17 13:33:25
Really I don't mind how hard Fudo hits or how big their 6 step SCs made with weak WSes are, it's an issue of TP gain. Why did SE allow Haste to stack up so fast that only +12% JA Haste can now cap delay? Why does Sam get its own unique Double Attack that gains you more TP per swing? Why are they allowed to have a weapon that essentially gives them a 4 hit, when other jobs are still on 5-6 hits? The difference between a Sam/wars TP gain and a War/sam or Drk/sam is just silly, especially when you consider Drk is built around Last Resorts JA haste giving them a higher swing rate. I do think they could adjust SCing a little, I don't have a problem really with the 4-6 step light SCs doing massive amounts of damage because they are pretty impractical for most things, but the amount of passive SCing Sam does with Fudo is a bit much. For Drk you need to trade to a weaker WS to even make light, and that light will be way weaker than a Sams.
Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-09-17 13:33:33
Or that, I was informed that Drg still subbed Sam even with the lack of benefit from Hasso, probably was wrong.
If there is an event where drg need to sub war to cap attack, drg would be the only good dd at this event; unless attack is low drg should sub sam still.
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 13:41:20
Quote: So overwhelm is OP and easy to use but SATA is hard ? ok.
Activating SA or TA locks you in place and there's a short delay before you can do anything(not so much when you stack it for a WS). A SAM merely can just WS from the front. Also it's more likely the SAM has hate anyway so the mob would be facing them to begin with -_-
 Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-17 13:42:11
Overwhelm is hardly the main issue with sam balancing.
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 13:45:46
Quote: If there is an event where drg need to sub war to cap attack, drg would be the only good dd at this event; unless attack is low drg should sub sam still.
Not really. 10% DA and berserk are relevant now to DRG. Nobody caps attack on anything unless it's delve 1, so Berserk and /WAR will grant more benefit to DRG than /SAM will. DRG gets a native 10% JA haste trait so Hasso is pointless. STP is relevant to a degree but 5 hits aren't the end-all and some 6hits have higher dps than the best 5 hits due to how multihit gear can be stacked in its favor. Also as more stp becomes invariably more common in future updates, /SAM becomes devalued even less.
Also even when I /WAR i jump from 70 to 130TP in less than a second sometimes so it's not like the sTP is going to make or break me where I'll be sitting at 98% TP for years. I doesn't seem like it's saving me a hit in my TP phase when during my WS animation I'm already back at 130% TP or higher.
Sekkanoki is decent but its 3min recast, meditate is a DPS loss for /SAM at capped haste, spend 2 seconds to get 60% TP when I get more TP from just meleeing.
Server: Asura
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Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-09-17 13:46:42
I wouldn't say nobody caps attack on anything unless its delve 1, with Geo it really isn't that hard to do.
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 13:50:38
And yet GEO's aren't always present/online and 80% of the FFXI community still thinks GEOs are a loljob, at least on Valefor.
At any rate the benefits of /SAM are minute over /WAR in a vast majority of current situations. The only time /SAM really wins is if you're in a low buff. The only thing /SAM is giving you is a slight boost in sTP which could come from Samurai's Roll. And like I said, in practice, when I'm /WAR I jump frequently from 70% TP to well over 100 due to having ~33% DA rate/AM3 and a whole lot of sTP gear in AM3 sets, that the sTP hardly makes a diff.
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2014-09-17 13:51:11
Hasso is still ~2% haste, STR, and accuracy.
6-hits builds are sometimes better than 5-hit builds because of the equipment you're shifting around, not because a 6-hit is sometimes arbitrarily better than a 5-hit.
It's not about what makes or breaks you, it's about what's better. Your anecdote is meaningless(and an exaggeration- that rarely happens with Ryu, much less the garbage you're swinging)
Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-17 13:51:33
No, not really. We use geomancers as much as any other server.
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-17 13:52:57
Virtually was one shotting considering the previous weapon skills/skillchains were taking off fractions, but the 99,999 took off more than 80% most likely. Do you really think it's intentional for any job under any circumstance to deal 99,999 damage outside of a brew? Wopket has more than 120k HP, but what about mobs like matamata when prepped drk's can drain him for 50k+ or the VW qutrub that takes 99999 from weaponskills. Mobs have weaknesses for a reason, so they can be exploited.
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 13:55:07
Do Incursion with Betrayl and a few with JPs and did some last night with Belligerency, nobody brings GEOs. They low man it with 3x DDs, WHM, BRD, SCH. Maybe a RDM as 7th or a BLM.
Quote: Wopket has more than 120k HP, but what about mobs like matamata when prepped drk's can drain him for 50k+ or the VW qutrub that takes 99999 from weaponskills. Mobs have weaknesses for a reason, so they can be exploited.
Matamata has millions of HP and so does VW Qutrub.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-09-17 14:01:31
Sounds like you went with some terrible people, the only time I don't use Geos is when we need to fit extra people in and no one has Geo. For Incursion Geo is king, I wish I could bring 3. It's also way more popular than Brd and Cor because you don't have to do boring backline things.
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-17 14:18:12
I think the idea they had for BLU was to, instead of buffing old spells, create upgraded versions of similar spells. Like a upgrade for bludgeon(3 hit spell, fast cast, fast recast) was Delta Thrust. Need multihit blunt? Asuran Claws.
Monster Correlation is such an understated component of Blue Mage that 99% of BLUs forget it even exists. I loved going BLU to Ceizak Delve and doing spamming 3-4k Delta Thrusts(Lizard Spell) on Chapuli NM where every DD had to hold TP.
So annoying though, setting specific spells for specific events, potentially screwing with your traits, etc. Isn't it?
I don't know. I wouldn't mind playing BLU in theory, but I refuse on principle.
That's the fun of BLU, picking what your loadout will be for a specific event. Azure sets helps immensely with the tedious loadouts but the game really should allow you to macro 'em up. Will you be a nuker? A full DD? Hybrid? Support? Mixed DD/nukes? A useless idiot that sets garbage like Vapor Spray? You decide.
Besides, SE has made the trait situation easier now they actually TELL you what spells give what traits. Newer spells give you a trait simply for setting anyway so its much easier and cuts down on having to set garbage just for the trait.
Oh and my God, I can't stop fapping at getting Erratic Flutter. Easily the best thing since that realization that Sudden Lunge wasn't broken.
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 14:19:15
That's always the 'go-to' argument "everyone who doesn't use X is terrible". A majority of Incursion I've joined had no Geo, and I've been doing it multiple times per day since it came out with a number of different linkshells and PUGs. To see "everyone uses GEO, lol" is obviously not the case. Maybe only forum-goers/BG players know about GEO in Incursion.
I just asked this group to bring GEO and they said "why, geo sucks, their pet will just die from aoe, brd can rebuff qickly after dispel and ballad whm"
Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2014-09-17 14:24:20
Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2014-09-17 14:26:42
That's always the 'go-to' argument "everyone who doesn't use X is terrible". A majority of Incursion I've joined had no Geo, and I've been doing it multiple times per day since it came out with a number of different linkshells and PUGs. To see "everyone uses GEO, lol" is obviously not the case. Maybe only forum-goers/BG players know about GEO in Incursion.
I just asked this group to bring GEO and they said "why, geo sucks, their pet will just die from aoe, brd can rebuff qickly after dispel and ballad whm"
GEO is really nice in there
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-17 14:33:31
Geomancer being able to fulltime Indi-whatever on your DD is just too good not to have.
The excuse the luopan will be dead doesn't change the fact you can fulltime one super potent buff on the DD and if your DD aren't retards you can also sit mobs on a luopan for another potent *** buff.
People need to simply suck less or recognize what a GEO brings to the table because it's a pretty simple job with some massive buffs to hand out. All I'm hearing are lazy alliances who can't be bothered to recruit the correct jobs for an event.
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-17 14:34:03
Dragoons: How's wyvern survival in Incursion with all that AOE flying around?
Valefor.Ophannus
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 241
By Valefor.Ophannus 2014-09-17 14:34:49
What buff do Geo's use? I was thinking Geo-Haste since we're always getting Slowed.
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