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Homeowners kicked out of house for child's drugs
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-08 10:19:30
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »King, in any way was it implied the Philly police and DA's office are purely funded by civil forfeitures? No. The forfeiture money probably makes up at least a third of it, however. It'd be an easy guess that the other two thirds come from paid taxes, parking tickets, ***like that. I rather have zero revenue from that source. If they have to have a civil forfeiture, then use the money for programs to prevent the forfeiture in the first place!
The police should be fully and wholly funded by the taxpayers that they are serving. That means no federal funding, and only state funding in proportion of the taxes collected by the county (or prefecture if you live in Louisiana) they are in.
That would make the police force more accountable for their actions, as their actions would have a stronger indirect relationship to their funding.
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-09-08 10:19:53
Might wanna correct your spelling there, King. Rouge is Frenchy talk for Red.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-08 10:25:30
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Tough call... but that's not the choice presented.
Also, I don't think 'The Fix' has it's own reporters, especially since it's the same article by CNN and even quoted the CNN legal analyst.
Quote: In that same time period, records show the D.A.'s office spent no money on community-based drug and crime-fighting programs, according to the Philadelphia AG's office.
So the real question is would you rather have a well funded DA and police that get paid (salaries only, not equipment for the force) with these forfeitures or have that money spent on community-based drug and crime-fighting programs? $7 mill out of $40 mill went to pay officers. The other $33 mill more than likely wound up, through trickle-down methods, making it's way to those drug enforcement programs, which are staffed by the very police department benefiting from civil forfeitures. How do you get $33 million out of $0 reported by AG's office?
Trickle down economics?
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-08 10:29:21
I would have a sufficiently funded and unequipped police force. No assault weapons, no tanks, no "emphasis" patrols to "prove the need" for more jail space, no unlawful dui or immigration checkpoints, etc. The police have become a bloated fratboy militia, take away their toys and hold them accountable. Just like basically all government spending, they'd do better on less than half. Wait, do the police force anywhere use tanks on a daily basis? Or assault rifles?
Plus, where are you getting these "unlawful DUI" or "immigration checkpoints (that is not being held or assisting the Immigration Department for the federal or state agencies)"?
The police forces are held more accountable than you think, its just that when 1 officer goes bad or rouge, you automatically assume that they are all bad or rouge.
Well, since in 2013 alone the swat teams were called out to serve over 1200 search warrants, I'd say it's pretty likely that police use assault weapons and APC's on a nearly daily basis somewhere in America. DUI and immigration checkpoints are setup and manned by both local and federal employees, but they are unlawful. It's in violation of the 4th amendment to detain people without reasonable suspicion. Being on the road at 2AM or within 100 miles of a border is NOT reasonable suspicion.
Do you live under a rock? Out of all the officer shootings in recent memory, the only cop I can remember actually getting fired was the one who shot up a minivan full of kids in New Mexico.
 Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-09-08 10:38:14
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Tough call... but that's not the choice presented.
Also, I don't think 'The Fix' has it's own reporters, especially since it's the same article by CNN and even quoted the CNN legal analyst.
Quote: In that same time period, records show the D.A.'s office spent no money on community-based drug and crime-fighting programs, according to the Philadelphia AG's office.
So the real question is would you rather have a well funded DA and police that get paid (salaries only, not equipment for the force) with these forfeitures or have that money spent on community-based drug and crime-fighting programs? $7 mill out of $40 mill went to pay officers. The other $33 mill more than likely wound up, through trickle-down methods, making it's way to those drug enforcement programs, which are staffed by the very police department benefiting from civil forfeitures. How do you get $33 million out of $0 reported by AG's office?
Trickle down economics? You haven't been following the discussion, have you? To reiterate:
Quote: A hard-working Philadelphia couple had their house seized due to their son’s drug bust, even though the parents have never been charged with a crime.
Yianni Sourovelis, 22, was booked on drug charges last January after police arrested him for possessing $40 worth of heroin and later accused him of selling drugs out of the home. But six weeks later, police and prosecutors came with an armed lawsuit and seized the house of Christos and Markella Sourovelis. Although they accepted that the married couple committed no wrongdoing, authorities used a civil forfeiture law to seize the home since it was tied to illegal drugs.
"It discourages crime and it takes the ill-gotten gains away from the bad people. It’s a good law. It works,” said CNN legal analyst and consumer attorney Brian Kabateck. “That doesn't mean that it doesn't sometimes have issues that need to be corrected. The system constantly has to change."
The Sourvelis’ were forced to sleep on the couch of a family member for over a week before facing a prosecutor from the DA’s office and convincing them to let them back into the house. But after their son pleaded no contest to the drug charges, they could only be let back in on the guarantee their son was banned from the house.
"To me I'm home, but I feel violated at this point,” said Markella. “I'm doing things in my house, but I wonder if it’s always going to be my house. Are they going to take it one day like that?"
Philadelphia is one of the most aggressive cities in the world when it comes to civil forfeitures. In the last decade, the city has seized 1,000 houses, 3,300 vehicles, and $44 million in cash. The Pennsylvania Attorney General's office said that in the last three years, around $7 million from these forfeitures went straight to the salaries for the Philadelphia District Attorney's office and the city police department. Read the bolded, plox. Kthxbai.
$44 million seized over 10 years and $7 million paid in salary over 3 years are not in the same ballpark.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-08 10:45:27
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Tough call... but that's not the choice presented.
Also, I don't think 'The Fix' has it's own reporters, especially since it's the same article by CNN and even quoted the CNN legal analyst.
Quote: In that same time period, records show the D.A.'s office spent no money on community-based drug and crime-fighting programs, according to the Philadelphia AG's office.
So the real question is would you rather have a well funded DA and police that get paid (salaries only, not equipment for the force) with these forfeitures or have that money spent on community-based drug and crime-fighting programs? $7 mill out of $40 mill went to pay officers. The other $33 mill more than likely wound up, through trickle-down methods, making it's way to those drug enforcement programs, which are staffed by the very police department benefiting from civil forfeitures. How do you get $33 million out of $0 reported by AG's office?
Trickle down economics? You haven't been following the discussion, have you? To reiterate:
Quote: A hard-working Philadelphia couple had their house seized due to their son’s drug bust, even though the parents have never been charged with a crime.
Yianni Sourovelis, 22, was booked on drug charges last January after police arrested him for possessing $40 worth of heroin and later accused him of selling drugs out of the home. But six weeks later, police and prosecutors came with an armed lawsuit and seized the house of Christos and Markella Sourovelis. Although they accepted that the married couple committed no wrongdoing, authorities used a civil forfeiture law to seize the home since it was tied to illegal drugs.
"It discourages crime and it takes the ill-gotten gains away from the bad people. It’s a good law. It works,” said CNN legal analyst and consumer attorney Brian Kabateck. “That doesn't mean that it doesn't sometimes have issues that need to be corrected. The system constantly has to change."
The Sourvelis’ were forced to sleep on the couch of a family member for over a week before facing a prosecutor from the DA’s office and convincing them to let them back into the house. But after their son pleaded no contest to the drug charges, they could only be let back in on the guarantee their son was banned from the house.
"To me I'm home, but I feel violated at this point,” said Markella. “I'm doing things in my house, but I wonder if it’s always going to be my house. Are they going to take it one day like that?"
Philadelphia is one of the most aggressive cities in the world when it comes to civil forfeitures. In the last decade, the city has seized 1,000 houses, 3,300 vehicles, and $44 million in cash. The Pennsylvania Attorney General's office said that in the last three years, around $7 million from these forfeitures went straight to the salaries for the Philadelphia District Attorney's office and the city police department. Read the bolded, plox. Kthxbai.
$44 million seized over 10 years and $7 million paid in salary over 3 years are not in the same ballpark.
Nope, but it sets a very disturbing groundwork when you have that level of direct incentive.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-08 11:00:57
So the AG's office is lying when it says:
Quote: In that same time period, records show the D.A.'s office spent no money on community-based drug and crime-fighting programs, according to the Philadelphia AG's office.
If anything you're making a pretty strong case for those functioning drug houses. At least we know where the money comes from and where it goes. Rich drug dealers also stimulate the economy with their lavish spending.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-08 11:07:14
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Nope, but it sets a very disturbing groundwork when you have that level of direct incentive. The level of direct incentive is proportionate to their need for newer equipment, payment for training new officers, payment for existing officers, gas for cruisers... People don't think. There's a false belief that "oh, my taxes pay for everything in my town". That, is, actually true, to a point. However, tax dollars can only go so far, and towns, cities, and states have to budget programs that get those tax dollars. In most cases, police departments usually get shafted by the very municipalities they serve. Their funding has to come from somewhere, as I've said before.
There is a certain amount of upkeep funding that is required, obviously, but these departments are expanding at rates far beyond population growth. Its also been shown in a couple studies that dollar for dollar, treatment and prevention programs are more effective at lowering crime rate than additional police. One of the key initiatives that lowered crime rates in NY was aimed simply at cleaning up the streets literally. There are plenty of ways to fight crime that are as effective or more effective than more cops, more guns, more cells. Aren't you progressives supposed to love that stuff?
By ScaevolaBahamut 2014-09-08 11:17:19
Quote: The level of direct incentive is proportionate to their need for newer equipment, payment for training new officers, payment for existing officers, gas for cruisers... People don't think. There's a false belief that "oh, my taxes pay for everything in my town". That, is, actually true, to a point. However, tax dollars can only go so far, and towns, cities, and states have to budget programs that get those tax dollars. In most cases, police departments usually get shafted by the very municipalities they serve. Their funding has to come from somewhere, as I've said before.
That is *** bonkers reasoning
"oh you shouldn't get so mad at that guy who just mugged you; little breh is just trying to make ends meet"
PS you read the statute incorrectly on the previous page; as gross as asset forfeiture is, it's only designed to seize property that was acquired as a result of illegal activity, not simply used to facilitate it
a 16-year-old doing $40 weed deals to his friends was not paying for a suburban two-storey, sorry, and *** the city of philadelphia for pretending otherwise so they could get their slimy mitts on this family's house
the only thing sadder/more hilarious than asset forfeiture becoming a national law enforcement crisis is that it's not even in the top 5 national law enforcement crises right now
EDIT: OKAY OKAY GUYS I'VE GOT IT!
"hey, the cops need a baseline amount of money to operate, regardless of what taxpayers in their area conclude when exercising their right to valuate their services! All those young black dudes aren't going to shoot themselves, after all!
I mean, how could they? They're unarmed!"
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-08 11:35:30
Most of those positions are staffed by EMT's or cops because they have been established that way, not because they have to be. DARE is almost completely ineffectual, whereas community programs and recreation centers have noted impacts on crime rates. Another big factor is over-emphasis on minor drug offenses and stop-and-frisk programs.
It's been proven over and over that enforcement based programs as less effective than community based prevention programs. The fact that some programs are staffed by police is even more of a PR strategy than a results strategy.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-09-08 11:59:56
tldr; candlejack supports parents losing their home over a child's misdemeanor
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-08 12:07:03
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Most of those positions are staffed by EMT's or cops because they have been established that way, not because they have to be. DARE is almost completely ineffectual, whereas community programs and recreation centers have noted impacts on crime rates. Another big factor is over-emphasis on minor drug offenses and stop-and-frisk programs.
It's been proven over and over that enforcement based programs as less effective than community based prevention programs. The fact that some programs are staffed by police is even more of a PR strategy than a results strategy. Congratulations, ya made me open up my bottle of Jim Beam with your failure to prove me wrong.
Not that I'm denying that programs like the YMCA and community centers exist, however, drug treatment and drug use prevention aren't the main goals of such programs. I'm talking, prove me wrong by showing me evidence of the existence of community drug treatment/prevention programs, programs tailored and focused on such, that aren't staffed by cops or EMTs. Privately practicing doctors are fine.
You're the one making the claim that all those programs are staffed that way, it would be up to you to prove yourself right. All I said was that other programs exist and just because those programs are staffed that way doesn't mean they have to be, just that they are. I have no requirement to prove you wrong, but enjoy your drink.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-08 12:08:01
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »tldr; candlejack supports parents losing their home over a child's misdemeanor Nope. I do, however, support police officers enforcing the laws that are on the books. You, however, support criminals:
Rapists, child molesters, murderers, thieves, drug dealers, drug addicts...
Wow... you were actually doing pretty well at discussing your viewpoint then you go full potato and accuse someone of supporting child molesters...
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 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-09-08 12:43:15
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »tldr; candlejack supports parents losing their home over a child's misdemeanor
It's not the first time he's advocated parental rights being revoked over a random incident. It seems to be the catch-all solution. Not to mention, in the case, the "kid" is legally an adult. :/
Commence the yelling?
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 Bismarck.Magnuss
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By Bismarck.Magnuss 2014-09-08 12:48:05
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-08 12:52:32
Obligatory meme and all, I just don't like using the R word when it's not really merited. Besides, I'm from Idaho, potatoes > all.
Bismarck.Magnuss
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By Bismarck.Magnuss 2014-09-08 12:56:14
I just don't like using the R word when it's not really merited. Nor do I.
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-08 13:08:49
I rather have zero revenue from that source. If they have to have a civil forfeiture, then use the money for programs to prevent the forfeiture in the first place! It isn't often that I agree with KN, but this.
The concept of having self-funding police is absolutely horrible, pretty much regardless of the source of income.
If for whatever reasons civil forfeiture is deemed to be required (which is a different discussion), any money seized should be used for local scholarships or school infrastructure/educational materials.
And no, not *** propaganda classes/courses/events that are anti-drug.
By Fumiku 2014-09-08 13:13:33
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »tldr; candlejack supports parents losing their home over a child's misdemeanor
It's not the first time he's advocated parental rights being revoked over a random incident. It seems to be the catch-all solution. Not to mention, in the case, the "kid" is legally an adult. :/
Commence the yelling?
I'm still waiting to see how CJ feels about the kid distributing on a neighbors property while they are at work and if that neighbor should lose their home.....
Also, on the comment of the guy that lives a couple of blocks away, I haven't completely ruled out that more is going on, however, legitimate charges need to be brought against this family if that is that case. Not a side ways entry.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-08 13:30:18
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »44 mil seized over 10 years. Over 3 years, 7 mil paid out, both to the DA's office and the police department. There obviously had to be more money than that 7 mil in the past 3 years, yes? 44 million dollars in cash.
Now, let's look at assets, and ballpark it.
1000 houses @ 50k/house = 50,000,000
3300 cars @ 5k/car = 16,500,000
110.5 million over 10 years. Give it a huge margin of error, 50-150 million over 10 years, or roughly 5-15 million per year.
7 million distributed to police departments over 3 years; or roughly 2.3million/year, so roughly 15-50% of the yearly take is going to the DA's office and police department.
Of course, neither the allocation nor the distribution is likely to be evenly distributed across the timespan.
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Since the same community-based drug and crime-fighting programs people are bringing up in this thread are staffed by the same police department reaping the monetary benefits of these forfeitures, the money is, in a way, making it's way to those programs. The programs won't work, if there's no officers there, in the schools, informing kids not to do drugs or commit crimes. You know, that entire amount that they acquire via forfeiture? That's a pretty good indication that those programs don't work.
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »So, while 7 mil and 44 mil might not be in the same ballpark, it's safe to say the two are pretty damned close. It seems that those programs advising not to use drugs didn't work for you either. That's like saying 5 feet tall, 20 feet tall; not the same ballpark, but pretty damned close.
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Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2014-09-08 13:32:38
Well, all of this means you guys are in the wrong business. Should have taken those courses to make you a cop, or better yet, a prosecutor, and start robbing helpless people.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-08 13:33:14
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Might wanna correct your spelling there, King. Rouge is Frenchy talk for Red. I appreciate your help. I changed my mistake.
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Might wanna correct your spelling there, King. Rouge is Frenchy talk for Red. Lol, I believe the correct word King was trying to use, was "rogue".
King, for your future reference, that word is spelt...
R O G U E
Get it right. Only five letters, really hard to *** up the spelling. You, on the other hand, can just kindly go *** yourself.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-08 13:37:39
I would have a sufficiently funded and unequipped police force. No assault weapons, no tanks, no "emphasis" patrols to "prove the need" for more jail space, no unlawful dui or immigration checkpoints, etc. The police have become a bloated fratboy militia, take away their toys and hold them accountable. Just like basically all government spending, they'd do better on less than half. Wait, do the police force anywhere use tanks on a daily basis? Or assault rifles?
Plus, where are you getting these "unlawful DUI" or "immigration checkpoints (that is not being held or assisting the Immigration Department for the federal or state agencies)"?
The police forces are held more accountable than you think, its just that when 1 officer goes bad or rouge, you automatically assume that they are all bad or rouge.
Well, since in 2013 alone the swat teams were called out to serve over 1200 search warrants, I'd say it's pretty likely that police use assault weapons and APC's on a nearly daily basis somewhere in America. DUI and immigration checkpoints are setup and manned by both local and federal employees, but they are unlawful. It's in violation of the 4th amendment to detain people without reasonable suspicion. Being on the road at 2AM or within 100 miles of a border is NOT reasonable suspicion.
Is that nationwide searches? If so, that's not too much, that's only 3-4 searches done all over the nation per day.
Quote: Do you live under a rock? Out of all the officer shootings in recent memory, the only cop I can remember actually getting fired was the one who shot up a minivan full of kids in New Mexico. So, are you saying that police never makes mistakes? Are you saying that every cop that ever makes a mistake should automatically be fired for making a mistake?
If we do what you want them to do, there would be no cops out there, as they would have been fired in less than a year of service.
You may enjoy that, but not me.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-08 13:53:45
Well, all of this means you guys are in the wrong business. Should have taken those courses to make you a cop, or better yet, a prosecutor, and start robbing helpless people. Guy and his kid get out of a car in a dark parking lot. A mugger jumps out, and threatens to hurt the kid unless the person gives them all valuables they have on them; watches, keys, wallet, phone.
Guy and his kid drive down the road. A policeman pulls them over, and threatens to take the kid away from the parents unless the person gives them all valuables they have on them; watches, keys, wallet, phone.
If all that separates a mugger from a police officer is a badge, the location of the mugging, and the specific kind of threat to a child, what exactly is the difference again?
Besides the fact that if you get mugged, your insurance may actually cover it?
Wow
Hey, let's just remove the judicial system!
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