Summoner In Delve - Share Your Stories

One efficient way to play Smn in plasm farm runs (at least Ceizak) is as main healer + support with Ifrit (Favor/Warcry/Enfire) and Haste/-na (dd/dd/dd/brd/cor/smn). It's VERY effective but it takes a lot of gear/effort to work. You need a very good Avatar's Favor set (512 skill with Auto-Refresh pieces) and an almost perfect Cure set (mine heal for 700~ HP on Cure IV with 53% Fast Cast), the Brd must Pianissimo Ballad since you have to stand close to the melees for Ifrit's Favor etc.
This play style is also useful for others situations/events but it's clearly not something that anyone can achieve, especially those who don't really like the idea of healing as Summoner even though the job has a ton of Cure Potency / Healing Magic Skill / Refresh gear available.
Now, for NMs/bosses runs, even if I really like Smn I will go with a different job.

Thank you. My point is that often you cannot always find jobs XYZ that are fully geared up, you can easily find by the number jobs XYZ who just want to ride out your plasm party for fast invite without really investing in those said jobs.

By thinking outside the box, you can avoid the trap of jobs xyz waiting for over an hour to shout, or letting those said by the number leech and ruining your plasm run. Often you can set up your first DD party and tank party but have a hard time to round up your second DD party. A fully geared jobs with full delve set such as smn, pup x2, beast x2, and rdm can easily make your second party and have a good killing rate and handling link easily. Smn can hold one mob with zero problem whatsoever. Rdm easily can sleep 2, and between the 2 beast + pup they can handle 2 mobs if things get out of hand.

They may not do ZOMG I did big epeen damage and now I am half death cuz the mob is chomping off my butt while souleater last resort beserk is on... but they will survive, can handle multiple links easily and still do their jobs. And your plasm intake would not be much different than if you wait another hour for jobs XYZ.

Last night I went with a PUG delve group, leader is very cool and decided to go make all PUP groups (with delve weapon and automator) with healer and bard on the roaming party. Needless to say, it went with quite well, the paladin party struggled, both runs end up with a decent 5400 plasm. All the PUPs had fun, they had very little death if any, killed super fast, the automaton borderline OP... And not much healing is needed. Unfortunately I had to come as Bard, which is very nice, painless and not very stressful at all. Then I had to come as healer, not as fun lol, but I am sure I will get better, great experience overall.

Luvbunny1,

You asked about peoples experience with SMN in runs. All the SMNS I have seen in Delve SUCK. Now when I compare that same slot to another job, and I need say a Buffer, a BRD or COR will beat you at that job.

I'm not saying SMN is useless, I'm saying I wouldn't take one as there's better jobs for the roles.

I used to be a SMN so I understand your desire to use it. But SE just hasn't made it comparable as a DD and support at the same time. If they allowed you to use Full Favor and the Rage BP's without resetting it, and allowing you to say summon another pet just to use BP's or seomthing, that would be great, and I would happily take a SMN.

Now people who say " a wasted spot is a AFK / DC DD " No one is disputing that, but all things the same, if everyone goes and does their job, (you have to apply the same situation and abilities if your on about a job difference) then a SMN in the current content will not compete on a job by job basis.

a GIMP any job vs a Melee WHM will lose to the WHM, that doesn't mean the WHM is a good DD, it means hes just not AFK.

For the record, I would take a Good SMN over a Derp DD, but that said I would never take a DERP to a run, so I guess SMN will remain overlooked for now....

Yes it is purely depend on whoever is making the shout and how well do you know that said player. Job XYZ is a much much safer set up when you do random PUGs because you have no idea of what these people are capable and you do not want random SMN doing DD only, healing magic - no thanks - and coming with their crappy gears with 200 summon magic.

A shitty SMN is a wasted spot. A shitty COR and BRD will give a much reliable buffs, even if the BRD can't land lullaby but at least the songs are more consistent (and much easier jobs to do).

But if you know the players, and have been farming with them in several runs, I don't see why not, you can experiment with the set up instead of going cookie cutter. Delve Plasm Farm Random Shout is not about killing all 5 NM in 30 mnts or less - though this is a better solution since it gives you multiplier and you can get 10k or more per run. As long as you can fill the ROLES within the alliance with people who know their jobs and geared perfectly - then it works.

For example, healer role can be filled by Scholar, Rdm, and Whm. You want the good whm to go with your paladin party. A smn can fill the healer role if that said summoner does not mind at all coming as healer or buffer. Even a bluemage can do healing and buffing.

A DD/DPS role is not limited to Sam, Drk and Mnk... There are more to choose, and I rather take someone who is well geared at their main jobs as DD than by the number DDs who barely have optimal gears. You could easily make PUPs, BSTs and DRGs DD party who are geared to the tilt and pull way more bayld and kill faster and safer. And everyone end up having fun making over 5k bayld instead the dreadful 600-2000. Yes it does happened..... full alliance with jobs xyz by the number doing morimar making 600 plasm, don't ask how LOL.

I dont take DRK and SAM only as DD to delve.

Back when I did the 5k~8k farms I took
DRK SAM WAR SCH BRD COR (for main room)
MNK DRG SAM SCH BRD COR (Roaming)
PLD PLD WHM WHM BRD RDM (Before I found 1 PLD who could hold all the nms without dieing)

Now if your SCH does his job, and your WHM, you wont have to differentiate between "good" because they are all good. I think you're failing to see my point, if you suck at your job, you don't go to Delve.

So I can never accept your premise of taking SMN over a WHM.

I'm all for trying other things out, however a DD with haste , 26% gear haste, ja haste and 2x March is going to destroy a SMN DD wise by a good, 3~5x easily.

I know a few DRK's who can hit 9~11k ws's in Fractures.
Double March isn't a 20~25% increase in DPS, Haste works on a Curve in this game, so its actually alot more potent when you start stacking all the various hastes available IE Hasso ( with AF3+2 legs ) is 12.5%
Haste 15%
2x March ~ 22-25% haste (not sure on relic and skill sets etc on Potency )
Gear 25.6%

All these combined don't equate to you only hitting around 70% haste and doing 70% more damage, it actually allows you to deal around 5 times your original Damage, this is seen with the max weapon attack speed delay cap of being 80%

Source for this info is seen here. http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Attack_speed

In the event that I get a SMN to replace my BRD I would drop from the cap to around 60% reduction ( more probable to be 55% ) meaning instead of killing things 5 times faster, it would be around 3 times.

With this in mind, thats a 40% drop in kill speed and a 40% lower amount of plasm farmed by your particular party. ( so a potential 20% drop once you take into account the other party could have the optimal set up ) This is roughly 1k plasm based on your numbers of 5k.

Now you might think it's ok, and you might have more fun doing that, but 99.99% of the player base have fun, by getting things done effectively and quickly ( just a shame that around 80% of the player base doesn't have the gear for this high end event )

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try other set ups, but seriously don't try and tell people "hey invite a SMN and have fun being less than you can be" it's been tried for years, and every time SMN was shot down as being less than any other job, the SMN was trying to fill in for and lowered the parties over all Effectiveness.

You talk about team work, but you gimp your party by taking a LESSER job than BRD or COR. Even a Good SMN won't provide more assistance than a BAD BRD OR COR.

It's sad, but the game was built like this, and the player base are sick of grinding stuff the slow way to let other people have fun. they want stuff done today, not drawn out over 4 weeks, and if asking a BRD instead of a SMN helps them do that, thats what they're gunna do.

I'm going to leave this thread, because I feel I have argued points that you are not willing to accept. SMN will not add anything that a COMPETENT HEALER BRD COR OR DD could not add 3 fold.

That said, see you in wildskeeper Reives!

Has PUG plasm really deteriorated that far? People seem happy with 5-6k these days. I have not joined plasm farm since week two of Delve but back then 7k was considered low and DD armed with Plasm weapons were in the minority.

Neither have a lot of higher end players. Hence average plasma/farm run dropping?

also. whale > wolf :)

At this point people will just take whatever they can get. Pick up farm shouts are pretty damn rare, so this is the only way most can get plasma at all.
4-5k is awful, but it's always better than 0.

The people capable of killing the bosses aren't going to join these non-NM farm shouts. The people that have already upgraded their gear probably won't either. Airlixir prices being crap now removed those that just wanted gil to.
So that leaves only the somewhat or severely under-geared players who are just happy to be invited and to make progress at all.

Probably 10~ pug farm shouts a week here. Quite a few Tojil shouts but usually few slots and requirements are beyond most that need the thing to begin with.

It's really bad the state of PUGs - so many people cannot follow instruction and way too many by the number jobs with the shittiest gears you ever seen. Trying to ride the train of "bard, corsair, and white mage" only please. It would have been fine if they follow direction and do their jobs. I had a few run with the same person casting magic trying to sleep the NMs, twice in one run, over and over and causing a big massive wipe and wasted leader's 200k entry fee.

Thats when you hit the kick button and blist that tool.

When you are doing a PUGs - often you do not have this luxury.... If they are just crappy support jobs, people don't care as long as they get their 2 songs and 2 rolls (even as the bard cannot sleep the link and the corsair are too poor to buy bullets and light cards). It's bad yes....

Often you sorely need healers, any will do, so they take Whms and Schs who have the crappiest gears and have no idea what it means to heal in a fast pace events where you cannot rest for MP. The Orvail robe has 2 MP refresh, and the Weatherspoon cuffs has 8% cure potency. These two should be replacing their LOL'd Abusea gears (to those players that come with random crappy gear set). Any average healer should be able to hit 30% cure potency at the bare minimum.

A good summoner can bring a lot on a delve plasm party, but this all depend on the said player. If they come as SMN to only do rage BP and that is it, don't bother to come.... But if they come as support buffs plus back up healer, handling link that cannot be slept, and helping tossing 2-5k damage on a mob, then yeah they are adding something to the run. Between elemental siphon and sublimation (with Sch weather spells) - you should be able to have avatar out with 1-4 mp refresh, not adding the 2-6 mp refresh provided by your bard or corsair.

I don't always come as SMN on random PUG plasm party. I like coming as bard because it is easier, or as SCH and WHMs because I can make a difference keeping my group not dead (unless you are those melee that run off on their own trying to solo mobs and not assisting your party leader). Or as RDM who can land those enfeebles on the eft, or keeping the PLD alive on the PLD group :)

for subpar and above average plasm smn is fine, because of the duration of the buffs it's not going to replace a bard or cor but it can give a decent amount of buffs what I'd do:

Rotate

Hastega
Enfire
Both fenrir's roars
Ice Spikes (helps deters damage from melee that take hate)
Warcry
Enfire

And I would use Heavenly strike to speed up kills here and there and take hate to save a few hits that the melee will eventually get(or not if they suck).

I never used refresh favor and pretty much stuck with my siphons and convert(I'm not sure if I even used that)


Sleepga/Nightmare is also helpful and also for damage mitigation you can use Shock Squall and use Thunderstorm instead of Shiva. If you care enough you can use favor from ramuh or ifrit but because of the speed of kills and repositioning I didn't care too much and the occasional being the wrong direction for incinerate.

Mana cede your healing avatars before you pop your cures btw.

I could see a lot of ways SMN would be useful, particularly on Bee delve runs. However, I would never claim that people would be willing to stray from current conventions. I've thought about this a lot, though, so I thought I'd share a few of my thoughts on the matter...

- Shining Ruby and (on some NMs) Spring Water would have a lot of value helping the healers out. Slowga/Cimicine discharge (slowga TP move by Mastop) make DD whine like babies, and a quick way to wipe those off so that they can be hasted would serve to restore lost DPS.

- No more need for haste buddies, assuming everyone is positioned in a way for the SMN to use hastega throughout fights.

- Heavenly Strike: Using Blizzard nukes on Mastop is the typical way to keep his resistances balanced. The Queen Bee's Blink TP move is also supposedly dispelled if you do enough Blizzard damage, and supposedly BPs (or at least Heavenly Strike) aren't absorbed by shadows.

- Titan's move that mitigates severe damage would be helpful on bosses, such as the scorpion, that have high dmg TP moves (and an atk+ tp move to paired with it) that are unstunnable. I'm usually a little pissy that DD prefer to stack damage songs without giving much thought to sacrificing one of them for scherzo instead. A weakened DD does far less dmg than one without an extra minuet. Or you could place this buff simply for the basic human error that is likely to occur in any run.

- Of course, en-spells increase damage potential. I know the shark's water shield (making it unstunnable) supposedly wears off after enough thunder damage.

- I'm curious if Diabolo's stat-down move is comparable to impact at all. Never read much on it.

Anyways, this is all just a dream, I know. But glad there are other people out there that think outside of the box.

You don't need to "balance" Mastop's resistances, you just need to make him transfer as many debuffs as possible to reduce his damage penalties. You just want someone to sub DNC because it'll transfer the samba / step dazes to add two unique debuffs to the mix every time. On top of that, just take a BLU and watch it melt. Requiescat's motto is "PDT? What PDT?"

There's no reason to try to "drop" bee's aura with ice damage, it disappears within seconds of melees hitting it.

Moves have to do over 75% of your HP for Scherzo to work. Almost nothing in Delve is capable of hitting that threshold. The only one that comes to mind is Scorpion, and generally Scherzo gets used for Scorpion. Bee in particular does absolutely nothing that would trigger Scherzo, so it's a complete waste of a song.

For Shark, DD use /RUN to remove aura and the benefits go beyond the Rune Enchantment enspell so there's not really anything to gain by bringing a SMN to do it.

It's not so much that you're thinking outside the box it's more that you're trying to shove a square box in a round hole.

For normal plasm fun run without killing many of the T1-5 NMs, Summoner is fine to bring, it does wonder and add tons of buffs to the party. When you do kill T1-5 rotation and Tojil, Summoner is not very good due to the 45 sec time limit on the BP rage or ward. Perhaps in the next few delve 2-3, Summoner can be useful again - for Perfect Defense I would assume lol. Delve require faster spells to be cast on, and SMN suffers because of this. Not to mention our ward and favor need to be adjusted past content lvl 99 and be up to date to content level 113...

threw together a morimar fracture run for shits and giggles. it was 12 smn, 3 cor, 2 brds and a rdm. took eft to 40% and wiped due to hate (after about 25 minutes). took matamata to 60% after idiots couldn't count to 7 twice. 12 summoners literally cannot kill matamata in between his TP moves due to damage capping and BP timers.

Summoner neither has the expediency nor the focus to do fracture at all. The job is horribly broken down to it's core mechanics. And is the absolute weakest job in 11 for SOA content by far, namely due to events being instanced timer-restricted zones.

Name a single instance in all of SoA where smn has use that isn't immediately out shadowed by other jobs or party setups.

wildskeeper reive

Quickdraw Cor setup.

they both work exceptionally well and to say that cor eclipses smn in wkr isn't really fair

same could be said between TP burning a kirin or kiting and smn burning. It's not fair, but it's the superior option, the amount of damage a proper QD rotation with good cors vastly out measures the same number of SMNs.

Well yeah but to say they're the weakest job in Seekers content just because 12 smns can't currently succeed in a delve boss run doesn't make any sense to me. Would you expect 12 bsts or 12 pups to get any further?

COR eclipses SMN in WKR by default because COR srill works at 0% colonization.

no but i expect one monk with a single mage backup to.

edit- to be clear.
12 summoners cannot kill matamata, something that can be done with 2 people. Due to two reasons, first being damage caps at 99999, second being our 45 second timer.

Sub scholar, spam stone. Problem solved.

Not that it isn't a terrible idea, but the matamata shouldn't be the dealbreaker

we had also attempted the eft and ran into a problem that would be prevalent with all of delve (in summoner burn setups). avatars don't live long enough to establish hate. so it swiftly devolved into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE7IRO-EhPk

Again, not that I condone this setup, but eft is probably the single most troublesome thing in the zone. Poison auras don't mesh well with avatars